Why do people always complain that companies make games to suit everyone and they are therefore all the same and slightly crap WOW clones etc etc. 

Then, when a company makes a game that is slightly different the same people (well, many of the same people) complain that they don't like the game and it could have been so much better.

On the one hand they are acknowledging that games need to be more diverse while whinging about it on the other.

TAke DDO for instance...probably one of the braver titles that did something a little different...I love this game, as do many others.  The problem of course comes from people who don't like it putting others off on forums and seeing it as some kind of victory.

We all have opinions but they aren't all right, which is actually the main problem in MMO's today. 

It's wierd, you don't get this dynamic in other industries.  You don't for example get someone who likes Coke complaining to the Coca Cola Corp to get Fanta changed because they want it to be more like Coke.  Or calling Fanta drinkers names because they like Fanta.

So, why do we expect every game that comes out to suit our needs?  We have a huge choice to choose from why can't we find something rather than weaste time bitching about what we have found.

I understand that we have expectations from certain games and they aren't always managed as effectively as they could be by the developers but I think we have to take some of the criticism.

If you don't like it...don't play it...but bear in mind that some people do like these games and others may be willing to give them a try but don't because of the bad press they get from people who have 'tried' the game.

It;s no supprise that games don't know what they want to be, or aren't original when anything different that does comes out gets blasted till it's turned to Coke.  Maybe the industry is the way it is as it's reflecting the customers who feed it...might it be time for an attitude change?

Originally posted by KohenTrask

So, why do we expect every game that comes out to suit our needs?  We have a huge choice to choose from why can't we find something rather than weaste time bitching about what we have found.

Thats the problem. We don't. You can count the sandbox styled MMOs on one hand. So I'm going to  continue complaining until game developers stop making only Everquest clones.

Yeh , Thats it. they arent clones of other games. its just people who have played a game like it say that its cloned. So , i think every MMORPG should bring something new.

there is much more motivation to make a post in a forum for a complaint then a compliment.

as a point, you are complaining about how much complaining goes on.

KT/neil -

  You find me in full agreement - I had 2 guilds in DDO a good chunk of our players were those who had come to the game looking for a less-cookie cutter MMO-

  Some of my more MMO-experienced players explained to me ( and this relates to how i ended up on the mmorpg site in fact) that the very things that I so bitterly complained about were the things that were compromised to keep the MMO-ers happy...

 so we had an odd situation where the mmo-ers were upset it was too much unlike whatever MMo they had set their standards around (which always made me wonder why they left it in the first place) - and those on the other spectrum upset as it had dared too little -

 nonetheless it sports a stealth system usually only equalled in single-player stealth games; AI that has monsters (when it works :) ) call for help... and of course a different form of combat -

 my GF whose first MMo was DDO; refuses to play any of the "slow boring combat games"; in fact.

But I'm sorry; my point was to praise you for sayong succintly what always takes me so many words to do so -

 for a bunch of people who say they want something new;  doesn't seem to be much willingness to give such a try.

 Imagine ,more-over, if DDO had catered a little LESS to MMO "sacred cows" and more to D&D-

 no cheating-ass coward twink-it-up Equip-to-win AUCTION HOUSE..

 or no CHEATING COWARD  Ranged heals with random coward bonus to the heal points so the STUPID heal-as-fast-as-hurt Heal-p-s vs DPS actually WORKS like in other mmo's...

  And dont get me started on the 20 free hit points so nobody gets a Diaper Rash!...

 the game would have generated even more whining

I'm sorry - maybe that - that i went into rant mode proves you even more right - in trying to please both camps they seem to have pleased but a small fraction of either; and more's the pity because IMO it was the only game of that genre willing to try anything new; really.

        Thats the problem. We don't. You can count the sandbox styled MMOs on one hand. So I'm going to         continue complaining until game developers stop making only Everquest clones.

I agree with you here...there aren't many sandbox MMO's about...but what good dose complaining about something that has no intention of being a sandbox MMO do?  The ammount of times I have defended DDO not because it isn't a sandbox MMO but becasue it was never meant to be.

Also, UO...I used to love this game and in the past have defended this game because there is no set structure to it...no linear quests etc, it was sandbox!

Instead of complaining about other games that aren't sandbox play one that is.  Sure, there isn't much choice but wasting your time bitching about why a game should be such and such a way certainly won't help.

And the majority of the time...it is bitching...it wouldn't be so bad if people were constructive but usually they aren't.

Vote with your feet people...the companies see money and thats about it.  Whinging on forums won't help.

i was responding to the way the web presents you with a selective viewepoint. I don't beleive that on the whole peeople are disapointed with ingenuity to create something different or with a successful clone of all that has gone before. It just seems that way due to people being likely to complain in forums.

The evidence is that a lot of both types of games have a strong player base.

I totally agree with you here.  In fact I once wrote an article on that exact subject for this very site.

However, it tends to be forumites who as the vocal minority get the changes they want while people who are too busy playing and enjoying the game (many people in games don't even know forums exist) have to deal with the outcome.

I know, forum users should be a good snapshot of the games population and therefore of the wants and needs of its players but they aren't...there is a fundemental difference.  Forum users in general are the hardcore players and therefore require a different challenge to the rest of the players.

I still come accross people ingame (in may games) who are playing their first MMORPG and realise the community that exists around them.  Guaranteed they don't know what changes have been requested on 'their behalf' by vocal players.  They read the box, liked the sound of it and signed up only to realise that what they have got is something far different from what they first thought.

This is taking it to an extreme to make a point of course.  But look at UO when Tram,mel was launched, totally changed the game and has slowly gone downhill since to cater for what players see as the good points in other games.

 ** ps : edit: i type so slowly and interrupted-ly - that i had not seen the post before this when i finally was able to hit post**

 actually i think you both made great points...

 Nurgles IMO is correct - the forums by their very nature ted to skew towards people likely to complain - people having a great time on their MMo are ready to log on there more than here.  Just my opinion but it seems reasonable that the sample is inherently a skewed cross-section rather than a "fair" representation of the MMo audience.

  It may not be true of other industries; but I htink to some degree it IS true of other forums - and not just online forums... complaining is often the "least common denominator" of discussion; and it does allow an element of comedy ( as i just attempted).

On the other hand; as the OP said ; DDO seems to attract a little more ? disparagement? - and i also think this is specifically because of what attempts it made to do something new.

  Interstingly; you can see that i hate the operant playstyles / assumptions of Several of the MMO's - but much to the OP's point; I believe; you don't see me showing up on the WoW or EQ forums to tell them how lame THEIR game is because it doesn't conform to my expectations of what an MMO "should" be

 ( a game like DDO that uses an IP or existing rules set invites this of course; but thats not most of the complaints I've seen).

 The nail that sticks up gets hammered down?

The MMO market is a weird one i must say. The NerfBat swings and the game changes. The cries of dispair are heard and sometimes games die. The model of continous content (monthly subscription) is a perilous path.

I am far from an expert as can be as i have only ever played one MMORPG (EVE-online for over 2 years) but i have an extensive history with face-to-face roleplaying. In my gaming group we would try many differenrt game systems, we would alter them to suit our own purposes often for the sake of the story or to introduce a feel to a game.

To me the best stories are the ones with a begining, middle and end, this suits stand alone games much better. The problem with open ended storytelling is that you can reach that 'shark-jumping' moment as seen with television series.

What attracted me to EVE (and still does) was the persistant world single server. I would like to say that it will continue to succeed forever but i suspect that it will have a lifetime. The crittisms are often about how isolated a new character is, and how out of the loop with respect to power even though there has been substantial inflation of the new caracters starting point. Or about balance and fairness, when the game responds to social engineering an unfair situation for personal gain (one of it's durable qualities) but as the difference between the haves and the have nots increase this may be a substantial discouragemet to new blood.

One thing i generaly do like is that the player base is consulted but the whiners are ignored (not actually that idyllic but mostly true), which helps keep some balance, everything must have a strength and a weakness. one of my favorite sigs is "i am scissors, paper is fine but nerf rock"

Then there is the fact that everyone has their own desires for what kind of game they like. As i was in a gaming community my friends got into everquest pretty hard, i took one look and knew i could not play it, the monthly fee was beyond my means at the time, well, i could have given up comics for it, but the lack of gore just did me in. I guess i need some level of realism in my fantasy, twisted as that sounds. Also as a roleplayer i need o see a bigger story that i am active in. Shards don't do that. Hell if i want to grind for loot i will play diablo (which i did a lot). Now i look around and WOW is the biggest, it is completly unaproachable to me as it is so cartoony. Others tell me that they don't associate well with a spaceship but do for a dancing nighelf that hits with blue sparkles, i am the opposite, the transhuminism of the pod pilot draws me in. different horses for different  courses.

What i think is most important for a developer is to have a vision for their product and to beware of anything that diverts them from that vision, in the long term respect is gained for a strong vision evemn if it doesn't please everyone.

sorry for the ramble.

Not a ramble at all and I wholeheartedly agree wiith you.

Like you said...different horses for different courses...if only everyone saw it that way.

So many ways to respond... but this is really a great topic to think about, honestly:

I'm not a journalist.  Therefore, if I like a game, I'm going to play it.  I'm probably not going to spend my time online writing about it and ooh'ing and aww'ing.  I'll probably just hit sites to get guides, quest, equipment information and stuff.  I will probably read up on upcoming patches and expansion announcements.  But I seriously doubt I'll take much  time out of playing to write a ton of positive feedback.  I mean, the game company knows I support them... they get my $15/mo.  :-)

But...  

A great way to really view all of this:

The MMO player base is a very real representation of how the world is today.

If we looked at each MMO game as being a country, I think that really helps us see communities like this in a whole different way.

Replace the names of the MMO's on the left with names of the countries of the world.  Then read some of the comments made inside of the threads inside.  

A lot of flame posts would really equate to ethnocentrism, racism, and various forms of passive-aggressive behavior.

Furthermore, many people live in countries where they cannot openly speak against their government and/or for their own beliefs.

Many players play games where the developers will not allow them to post anything on their corporate forums against their game/product and/or about their own real opinions.

...

Really though, MMORPG.COM is a place (for better or worse) where players can come and say what they really want about games.  And if a player says something negative on MMORPG, they don't have to worry about their account being banned/cancelled (which would equate to being killed in my game=country example). 

bottomline:

Players want to find games that they like to play. 

Players game hop to try to find 'their game'.

As you game hop, you form opinions and make this mental collection of pro's/con's for each game.

Even if it's your opinion, if someone who hasn't played the game before wants to know about it, they should probably know the pro's and the con's.  From a dev's website, they'll just get the polished marketing lines.  

People come to MMORPG to hear what critics have to say, really.  I mean, I come here to get information on games like everyone else.  But I don't just come here to get the information from the folks at MMORPG.  I also come here to read what my fellow gamers have to say.  Whether I agree with them or not, I still value their opinions.

...

MMO gamers are as passionate about their games as sports fans are about their teams.  MMORPG is like one big melthing pot of a tail-gate party, imho.

Games are 'personal' to people.  We play online games for hours at a time.  We play them for months and years of our lives. So, if/when we do take time to make a post/statement about 'our game', that post/statement often has at least some personal investment on our part.

When someone says something about your post or the game you play, you are going to feel an emotion or you are going to respond.   How you choose to respond is entirely up to you, but more often than not... it's via 'another post'.  

The thread then starts to become 'you protecting the validity of your opinion' more than it is about the game itself.

...

20 years ago, we didn't have the media coverage of the world that we have today.  And, what limited coverage we did receive was 1) filtered and 2) dated.  Meaning, when we received information, it has been reviewed by an editorial body and it was also 'old' by the time we got to read it.

We didn't have the internet.  We didn't have message boards. 

We didn't have a way to access information about anything/everything on anyone from anywhere at anytime or all hours of the day/night.

We didn't really have the ability to form global communities and talk to people/share ideas with people from around the world... either instantly or at all, really.  Not in the way that MMORPG's and forums allow us to do the things we do and say the things we say today. 

We can freely share information and opinions 'instantly'.  Again, for better or for worse.

I do think the MMO players complain more than any other consumer group.  Mostly because people really want a great MMO, but there really aren't any great MMOs so people just settle and complain.

I blame the consumers more than the developers.  If you don't like a game, don't play it.

I never complain about a game, if I don't like it, I don't play it.  But I do keep notes of everything I like and don't like about every game I've ever played.  And I use this knowledge in making my own games.