Mature content can be pigeonholed into a number of different categories including but not limited to sex, horror, violence, deep & complicated story structure etc.  note that I have seperated horror and violence as something does not need to be violent to be horrific ( just watch an episode of most haunted to see what a creaky floorboard can do to an overactive imagination).  The fact at the moment is that out of these sex & violence are the easiest ones to implement into a game and also the two that sell.  Sex sells and for anyone that doesn't think this is the case then there is a huge adult industry out there that must have been severely misinformed.

Like most of the posters in this thread I would love to see an MMO that had deep and developing storylines, quests (for want of a better word) that immersed the player into the seething darkness that lies just below the surface and had a tension rating somewhere between scream and heart attack, a game that grabs you by the nuts and refuses to let go until your character emerges at the far end ready for two weeks complete bedrest and a course of valium before the next guy with a story to tell comes along.  The sad fact is that this isn't possible with todays level of technology.  It's on the way, twenty or so more years maybe until the advent of quantum computers but until then we are stuck with pixelated asses and a market firmly aimed at the young teen bracket that instead of a smoking ashtray and copy of war & peace on his computer desk has a box of tissues alongside that unopened pack of condoms he bought to impress his mates, c'est la vie.

Originally posted by GormandY

 

Originally posted by heerobya

I agree.

My definition of "mature" content is stuff that children simply won't understand.

It's like the difference between Starship Troopers and Alien.

Starship Troopers - bewbs and gore = not mature

Alien - Nightmare inducing hell = mature

 

 

 

100% signed.

Resident evil = mature, AoC = not mature.

Dont tell me "but oooooo the games cant be compared".

Resident evil = hard puzzles, kiddies cant solve.

AoC = boobies, kiddies can love.

Just throwing this out there.

Originally posted by zxny

 

Originally posted by GormandY

 

Originally posted by heerobya

I agree.

My definition of "mature" content is stuff that children simply won't understand.

It's like the difference between Starship Troopers and Alien.

Starship Troopers - bewbs and gore = not mature

Alien - Nightmare inducing hell = mature

 

 

 

100% signed.

Resident evil = mature, AoC = not mature.

Dont tell me "but oooooo the games cant be compared".

Resident evil = hard puzzles, kiddies cant solve.

AoC = boobies, kiddies can love.

Although I'm not intending here to flame you but my brother played Resident Evil 2 non-stop and he would have not beaten the game without my help in the puzzles part. I pretty much solved every puzzle the game threw at him. At the time he played it I was 12. (surprisingly the hardest puzzle i had solving was the easiest one, where you go in the office and watch the video and figure out what's the password via computer(Resident Evil 2))

 

 

Just throwing this out there.

I'm talking about watching an episode of the Simpsons (old Simpsons) or Family Guy where they make obscure political and historical references. Children or younger teens will laugh because it's a funny image or d1ck and f*rt joke, but adults will laugh because they get the subtle political / historical humor in the situation.

Or even Southpark. Kids/young teens (even some older teens) will laugh because of the profanity, insanity, and downright crude nature of the jokes, but an adult will laugh becuase they understand the complex history/social/economical/political implications of the episode in question. 

Get what I mean?

Lol Yeah now I understand better. It was only just recently that I began seeing this. I watching Robin Willams Live on Broadway when it first came out and laughed alot. I watched it less then a month ago and thought it was even funnier because alot of the jokes made alot more sense(The French).

Well, I, for one, appreciate the current rating system. It's flawed, it's not consistent (how could it be?), but it is nevertheless helpful.

Simply put, I am not interested in playing "M"-rated games, however imprecise that rating might be--or in having my kids play them.

I do not want to have to guess at a game's content before I buy it. An "M", "T", or "G" rating at least gives me *some* idea of what a game is going to be like and what kinds of themes and situations it will include. Chances are, whatever garnered that "M" rating means that particular game has something in it I can live without.

That said, it would be helpful if one could access the specifics for why a game was rated a particular way.

As for the original article, I'm sorry but it just seemed like a nonsensical ramble to me.

The ratings exist. They are helpful to many. Deal with it.

Disclaimer - the following isn't a put-down, it's just that your comment represents the traditional cultural mindset which imho is the real issue in the whole M debate.

Originally posted by tmr819

Simply put, I am not interested in playing "M"-rated games, ... --or in having my kids play them.  ... Chances are, whatever garnered that "M" rating means that particular game has something in it I can live without.

 

Yup whatever garnered that M rating Must be Bad - Hi mom!  

 

That said, it would be helpful if one could access the specifics for why a game was rated a particular way.

 

Ahh, now we come to the real issue - I'm guessing you would allow your kids to play an M game if the M was given for Violence or War or Horror or Politics or Philosophy or anything *other* than Sex or Drugs. 

 

See, M's today are handed out by people who represent a culture (mainly the US) that still fundamentally believes that Sex is a Sin and therefore Immoral and something The Public needs to be warned about and protected from by a Rating system, because these 'guardians of purity' are trying to maintain a particular Judeo-Christian Worldview that preaches that Sex is Bad (except in Marriage tween a man and a woman for the purpose of having kids, and even then it's something to be barely tolerated) and that Killing is Good (as long as it's done by the Government in the name of the Christian God of course - when it's done by foreigners in the name of the Islamic God well then it's call Terrorism, which, you know, is real Bad)

 

It's all about perpetuating the Western worldview and Western Goals.

 

As for the original article, I'm sorry but it just seemed like a nonsensical ramble to me.

 

Uh, Maybe it was too mature for you.  I'M KIDDING!!!  

 

The ratings exist. They are helpful to many. Deal with it.

 

Reminds me of the bumper sticker - "God said it, I Believe it, that settles it". 

For many - He didn't, they don't, and it doesn't.

The author needs to reread the last MMOWTF. happy games make me want to kill.

AoC will be adult, and not because of boobs or blood. adult themes, a game not aimed at kids in general. AoC will gloomy and gritty unlike previous mmorpgies like wow. which are happy and shiny with good vs bad, which is what most kids like.

although I agree with most of this atricle. but I am gona play AoC for different reasons, the boobs and blood are a bonus and are NEEDED to be part of the lore.

If you look at WAR they are going for the wow happy shiny, good vs evil thing and a teen rating. but if you look at warhammer they are not really making a game accurate to the lore, since there are naked models, giant snake monsters with like 6 bare breats and nude harpies etc. WAR is warhammer repacaged for kids and the massive wow playerbase. they are going for $$

EDIT: LOVE ABOVE POST!

Originally posted by brenth

I am 40 years old and I would like to see a few games that are not limited and PC and sanitized  though im not looking for online porn or a blood bath  I would like it if a game felt more realistic and organic.   Games to me have always been about that escape from reality, I'm usually hoping to be so immersed in the game's story that little realistic details like gory holes in a person go unnoticed.  There have been games where they give this sort of organic feel and often they are mature and often they only appeal to a rather sick portion of the Younger generation of gamers.  Personally this is nothing but a personal want, there are developers making this sort of stuff, they just don't belong in MMO's in my opinion.

I allways hated games where the guy is nearly dead and there is no percieveable damage to them 

and I definatly dont mind seeing female breasts though i do tend to prefer it in context  I guess you could say  I would like to see "R" rated games 

These sort of games are made, most Mature rated games are rated Mature for a reason.  Their material is not suitable for someone under the age of say 13.    Though they recommend it for adults, honestly if the kid is in their teens there's no reason they can't make a cognative definition between fantasy and reality which is the whole point of the Ratings System.    To keep the young and 'impressionable' (all the bad kids i ever knew as a kid were not polluted by media but their own families or just a pure natural will to be bad) from getting a hold of material that perhaps their minds are not ready to sepeerate fantasy from fiction (we all know this happens look at kids immitating wrestling and other violence only to end up hurting someone else. )

and both ESRB and the theater rating system need to be much more specific about their determinations

like in underworld2 with kate bekensale it says theirs nudity  but  its just some bed pet (not kate as one would hope)   or the nudity could be guy nudity  or even gay sex nudity   and that content should be disclosed in their ratings for people better to judge the product.

The problem with any and all ratings system is not the system itself but the people who do the rating.  What one person considers 'mature' or 'R' rated may not seem that mature or R rated to the viewers.  Thats why most movies have websites and trailers that give you a hint of the violence, possible gore, intense action, and of course language and nudity.  All of these factor into whats deemed appropriate for certain age groups.  In the end its up to the parent to be informed and make a choice on what they want their kids to be introduced too.   In all honesty as long as a person looks over the age of 15 they can go see and buy whatever they want in related to games and movies.    Its just plain retarded to tell someone thats 15 they can't buy a game because its too much nudity for them.     My own parents let me see R rated movies a plenty, there were a few like Basic Instinct I was told not to go see (totally didn't appeal to me anyway) but otherwise I saw plenty of horror and action films without so much as peep.  My parents knew I was more than old enough to decide for myself.

maby game maker should also print on their lable the AGE of the content the game is directed at.

wow =  8 - 15?

eq2     12-18?

conan 16-22?

 

This is perhaps the dumbest thing I've ever heard.    It wouldn't keep kids out, it wouldn't stop kids from wanting it (infact it might make some kids want it more) and it certaintly wouldn't make the game any less good or bad.   It would how ever mean that game developers have to sit down and decide what they deem appropriate for certain age groups and thats not their job.  Thats our job as adults, and everyone of us has a different opinion of what turns us off or on to a game.  Everyone one of us has a different idea of what we want kids subjected too.  Honestly I'd never buy Conan for a kid under the age of say 14.   

 

If a parent buying something for their child can't look at the pictures on the back, ask the game store clerk, or understand the print that says (blood, gore, violence, nudity) often smacked on the box then they don't need to be buying games for their kids.   In all honesty labels are there to help inform but not make the final decision for who buys what and for who.    When I worked in a video game store I saw plenty of kids coming in buying games I'd of never let my own child buy and when I informed them I wasn't going to sell them the game without their parents standing with them they simply left, got their parent and after a brief word with the parent they either said yes or no and I can tell you right now most said they didn't care.   While there are plenty of prudes here in America there are some that simply let their kids think for themselves.  Maybe too much sometimes but they seem to understand how their kid thinks enough to know that a game with realistic violence is not going to damage their kids brains.

By trying to say we need stronger Ratiings systems your saying that we need the government to police our minds and our free will.   While I agree we need a ratings system to help the less informed and less say attentive adult on whats in the movie we don't need them to flat out ruin the entire movie or game for us if we're interested in seeing it!    We don't need stricker ratings we just need people to pay attention to what they're letting their younger kids buy (honestly I'd not even let a kid under 13 play an MMO to many chances to be exposed to bad behavior, rudeness, perverts, and in all honesty kids should be OUTSIDE PLAYING! ).   Parents are supposed to parent kids NOT game companies, not movie makers, and not the government.    If you want strick ratings then move to a country where they tell you what to wear, think, learn, believe in and what they can and cant watch or participate in, and make sure to carry stones to stone people to death when they break those laws.  (btw this is not all directed at the quoted poster).

As for the original article I say Right on!   Mature rated games are not always geared for adults.  Conan's truest fans are indeed considered adults but the material isn't necessarily appealing to JUST adults and the game makers know that.   Its a ploy to pull in not only the original adult audience but pulling the younger teenage demographic.     While we still hear of cases of kids under the age of 14 playing the game it'll definitly be alot less than say world of warcraft.  Parents who play WoW with their younger kids are not going to expose them to AoC.

I agree mature is more than just Boobs and blood its subtle stuff liek the hidden message in the following clip for example from a classic British TV series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33YUALnF3JY

Or this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DACkfFtOm-k

Originally posted by brenth

how long do you think it will be, before there will be vertual  sex clubs,  nude dancing and vertual prostatution and sexual encounters?

It's already in beta.  It's called Red Light Center, and anyone who thinks a game with a 'mature' rating and an age limit of 18+ will translate into a more mature user base can go there and be rudely awakened.

I agree with the author in that the thought of MMOs containing mature storylines and themes is laughable.  However, the ERSB rates games according to how appropriate they believe they are for children.  It has nothing to do with the depth or maturity required to comprehend the game, but merely whether the game will have an adverse affect on people under a certain age.  Personally, I think they're way too strict about it, but that's a different debate.

Also, the single player portion of Age of Conan, a significant part of the game, was written by Ragnar Tornquist, who wrote The Longest Journey and Dreamfall.  I've played alot of games, but I have never played two games with better stories, they are simply amazing.  If the plot for Age of Conan is half as good as it was for either Dreamfall or TLJ, and it's true to the books, then we're looking at a very deep, mature experience.

That was a good article, if a little too anti-AoC.

But it's a valid point. The entire focus of AoC's PR releases seem to be orientated around boobs and blood. That's what they are using to differentiate themselves in the market. And without any sort of context, boobs and blood aren't signifiers of a mature game.

Nor is the siege system, no matter how complex it might be. Mature != complex. I've seen plenty of raids that could be run by school children if they know when to press the right buttons at the right time.

Maturity is a matter of being able to understand, process and react to a situation. It's a matter of choice and behaviour. Simply throwing the boobs and blood out there means nothing unless there is context that makes it mean something; if it doesn't mean anything, it's gratutitous. Would AoC be a different game without the boobs and blood? Probably not. Do the boobs and blood allow you to make more or different choices than you can in other MMOs? Not really. I'm interested in seeing it, but I don't believe that it's going to be any more mature than WoW with a different set of graphics.

As a side point - if Turbine were really trying for maturity or realism, why only boobs? Why not full frontal nudity for both males and females?

Originally posted by UnSub

As a side point - if Turbine were really trying for maturity or realism, why only boobs? Why not full frontal nudity for both males and females?

That is a good question. Especially since the mythical 'fact' of '95% of gamers are teen hetero males' has already been proven false, especially in this day and age. Yet companies still seem strangely blind to how self-limiting their design choices are. They're overall hurting themselves by being so narrow minded and not even considering that there are more kinds of people playing games.

I find it funny when gaming companies:

1. Make a game with elements strongly favoring the tastes of only one kind of demographic.

2. Then wonder why it seems 'so hard' to get more diverse playerbase (which = more money) into their games. (Hint: It's because your game does ALMOST NOTHING to try to appeal to them!)

It's not rocket science: stop pandering to only one kind of demographic, and more people will be attracted to playing your game. Pander equally. Doing anything else is just stupidly shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to making money in the rapidiy diversifying gaming market.

Originally posted by UnSub

As a side point - if Turbine were really trying for maturity or realism, why only boobs? Why not full frontal nudity for both males and females?

 

Either way the article was definately not a bash against AoC. I plan on playing on some kind of PvP server when it comes out, but it seems to me they have lost track of what really makes their game attractive to mature gamers if indeed that is their target audience. As much as I enjoy full frontal I'd rather they focus on creating a gritty mirror of Howard's world.

http://mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setView/videos/gameID/191/videoId/1098

Watch this video at 3:44 regarding the comment

"Conan is all about boob's, I'm just kidding, well actually a large part of it is.  This just shows that Conan is a very very mature setting."

Wow!  This really makes me feel like Conan is a Mature game.

Originally posted by Thecrow12345

http://mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setView/videos/gameID/191/videoId/1098

 

Watch this video at 3:44 regarding the comment

"Conan is all about boob's, I'm just kidding, well actually a large part of it is.  This just shows that Conan is a very very mature setting."

Wow!  This really makes me feel like Conan is a Mature game.

Mature - like everything else - is a point of view...

If you want to attract a mature crowd, don't show boobs: Build a game that makes people use their brain instead. You then will not only discard retarded kids, but most of the WoW crowd too.

Doesn't get a whole lot better then this for your community!

I enjoyed this article and those parts of it I'm not addressing, I agree with, but this struck me as false:

"By simply releasing all of the gory details about a future release, publishers hope to rope in both the folks old enough to buy the game with their own money and the kids whose parents are too busy to pay attention to what their credit card is used to pre-order. They know that there will be tons of underage players in the game despite the over-the-counter measures used to stop them, but can claim innocence since they simply produce the game and can’t be bothered to enforce the age limit after the game has been bought."

This seems to imply that content creators make Mature games with the intent that they will be purchased by minors and to entice minors and that developers should not create adult content because children who are dishonest with their parents or who have permissive parents will gain access to the content.

The motivation for making Age of Conan have a Mature rating is indeed to make more money, but not because they think it will appeal to teenagers so much as that they feel it is an artistic choice necessary to stay true to the source material and that staying true to that material will allow them to appeal to fans of the license.

Parental responsibility means being responsible for raising your children.  In every form of media - especially entertainment media - content exists that many parents would think is not suitable for children.  It is the parents responsibility to make sure that they do not gain access to it.  Personally, my mother read her credit card slips and if I was ever found to have stolen from her, I would have been grounded for months and probably forced into family therapy.  However, my mother also didn't have a problem with my seeing boobs or violence in R-rated films after I was a teenager, and most of my friend's parents were the same.  There are a ton of teenagers playing M-rated games with the permission of their parents and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. 

This part of the article read as a bit naive, which is a shame as the rest of it tends to talk sense about a conversation that is usually overblown to the point of silliness.  And this is unfortunate, because people in the game media should focus on how silly the conversation about adult game content is rather than engaging it on pundit's absurd terms.  They should most especially not accept them as given.