Developers Corner

Give me liberty or give me perma-death.

Really, what I mean is that if can't have freedoms in my game that require depth and time, then I just want a mindless action game. Middle ground doesn't go that far with me. I want to be able to commit to my character completely and in multiple ways, otherwise I'm fine with some good clean fun.

Originally posted by Reborn17

Really great posts so far, I especially like the ones pointing out the perma-death clamor seems to be a carry over from the fps games. As former DM/GM in the early 90s and the stories of people killing themselves over lost characters ( I even knew a guy who's bud did that) I have been a little skittish in implementing it w/o caveats and restrictions. 

Regarding the FFA loot post by crazynuts24, really good stuff, as a former knight online player (primarily a merchant berserker) item durability and disappearance is standard fare. Heck, dupe deletion day was like christmas for merchants as everybody had to reequip. So I have definately already instituted means by which weapons and armor's durability and integrity is always an issue thereby driving the player economy ( using the vendor prices as a standard by which players can judge basic value). The permadeath portion tho, where the victor gains a stat boost, could create a whole subclass of gankers whose ever increasing str, despite not leveling, would terrorize their peers. Tho I do have a bounty system to make griefers/gankers suffer, I'd rather not empower them. Besides, I have other activities available to satisfy their aggresion.

I also have a spectrum of consciousness/unconsciousness available including dead, but resuscitatable until even that bar runs to zero. I know it sounds like I'm just piggybacking off ya, but my design document is currently 503 pages long (and still growing, almost doubled it in like a month since I decided to make it a total mmo cookbook for my game, Pendulum of Fates) and I have come up with, IMO, a perfect mmo :) Just my opinion mind you hehe :)

ah this thread isn;t about PErmadeath at all didnt know your stance.

yeah I wouldnt put PD in FFA. For that matter, even looting should be done in a way whereas the casual player can still enjoy the game yet- the hardcores get possible rewards from PVP.

Let the players themselves choose permadeath at there desire, it is simple to have permadeath if someone wants it that bad, they can just delete there charecter when they get defeated and roll a new one,

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

 

Well it is your game after all, I was just pointing out that when making the type of game I was explaining, you actually give players 3 games to play in 1 therefore giving a chance for high level content and having players actually level and get really great items.  You have 1 game where it's completely safe to play and level. Then you have another game where you fight players and potentially lose some armor,weapons and cash, or they could spend their time fighting to the death to be immortalized on an actual hero board for all the server to see.

The reason I think it would work better, is if you have no rewards for permadeath other then just your honor, then theres nothing pushing up to permadeath other then boredom.  I mean I wouldn't do permadeath unless someone took something from me, or if I wanted to take something from someone, or if I just decided I wanted to be on a leader board and show my skills to the world (or the server). 

I mean sometimes i may want to play a game where I just don't want to deal with permadeath at all and I just want to explore and find awesome loot, in a game that has no awesome loot I can't do that. 

What I'm saying is, you're giving players a chance to explore a world where items, gold, and content actually mean something.  Learning the game, and fighting other players is actually worth something.  Risking it all and putting your very life on the line is both the quickest and hardest way of earning all those cool items in one foul swoop.  I totally agree with you choice of risk I suppose I just took it one step further.

 

Cool, cool. I actually identified 14 levels of play people game in and are available in my design and you're right, nothing is pushing the player to participate in duels to the death but honor, but that's why people used to do it in real life, so I see no problem with that. I want players to have to make such choices and learn things. Will I negotiate or risk death? Will I reevaluate the annoyance of this person and agree to disagree or will we fight and possibly die. You see, its much like real life. Respect between men is predicated on the threat of violence. I know that if I disrespect a man in a certain way we may have to fight, and even die over this perceived insult. So you know what happens? We treat each other with a certain level of respect. So it would be in the game world. if you knew there could be such long range consequences for your actions, you may think twice. Especially since it doesn't have to be the person you insulted or griefed who may challenge you, it may be his guildie, his friend, his High level alt etc.. Its time to man up in these games IMO and force people to consider their actions . I think the genre's fanbase has come of age and is ready to deal with adult interaction and themes (not XXX per se ;) )

Also there IS lotsa awesome loot, unique, valuable, hard to get, all that, but would you die for a Bentley GT?  Or a Beverley Hills mansion? I mean really die. Like its over. Finit, Kaput? Would you go 99 levels and risk PD for the best sword in the game? Which of course has to be in a suitably difficult place to be worthy of such a sword. What if your healer disconnects on that mish? The phone rings? The baby cries? Then when the GM says tough luck, the design team's to blame? I'm sure some would have no problem with that, but in an ideal game your disappearance would mean losing something valuable.  Something more than having the sword for having it's sake could provide. I think actually failing (and possibly plus debt) is price enough to pay,  and then possibly having to once again determine the new location of the item, starting with little more than the remnants of what's left behind from your last failed encounter. Perhaps after trying and failing 3 times on your fourth attempt the holder is so sick of seeing you he kills you outright with the full power of the sword leaving your party members to face him alone. Like I said, I'm not saying there aren't scenarios in which PD wouldn't work gamewise, there's a whole genre of literature and movies dedicated to tragedy, I just personally think since my limits are so few in the game, and debt is usually a sufficient enough penalty, players wouldn't use it unless it was personalized i.e. My name is Innigo Montoya, you murdered  my father, prepare to die. Hehe, well, maybe not THAT serious, but y'know. If I felt it needed it, I would always consider the possibility tho.

Originally posted by vajuras

Originally posted by Reborn17

Really great posts so far, I especially like the ones pointing out the perma-death clamor seems to be a carry over from the fps games. As former DM/GM in the early 90s and the stories of people killing themselves over lost characters ( I even knew a guy who's bud did that) I have been a little skittish in implementing it w/o caveats and restrictions. 

Regarding the FFA loot post by crazynuts24, really good stuff, as a former knight online player (primarily a merchant berserker) item durability and disappearance is standard fare. Heck, dupe deletion day was like christmas for merchants as everybody had to reequip. So I have definately already instituted means by which weapons and armor's durability and integrity is always an issue thereby driving the player economy ( using the vendor prices as a standard by which players can judge basic value). The permadeath portion tho, where the victor gains a stat boost, could create a whole subclass of gankers whose ever increasing str, despite not leveling, would terrorize their peers. Tho I do have a bounty system to make griefers/gankers suffer, I'd rather not empower them. Besides, I have other activities available to satisfy their aggresion.

I also have a spectrum of consciousness/unconsciousness available including dead, but resuscitatable until even that bar runs to zero. I know it sounds like I'm just piggybacking off ya, but my design document is currently 503 pages long (and still growing, almost doubled it in like a month since I decided to make it a total mmo cookbook for my game, Pendulum of Fates) and I have come up with, IMO, a perfect mmo :) Just my opinion mind you hehe :)

 

ah this thread isn;t about PErmadeath at all didnt know your stance.

yeah I wouldnt put PD in FFA. For that matter, even looting should be done in a way whereas the casual player can still enjoy the game yet- the hardcores get possible rewards from PVP.

 

Cool cool. BTW, ALL the posts ROCK and I really appreciate them.

Okay. Let's add another layer to my previous proposition...

And mix it with what somebody else said too...

Now let's say you have a possibility to risk your everything to gain a momentary advantage.

Should THAT be allowed against mobs? I don't think so. Why? Because THEY can't do the same thing.

Should it work ONLY against other players? Yes. Why? Because this way, you can spot right away if you're going to make it or not. There is no need to try and resist a group attack on yourself. You know you'll be killed one way or another. Trying to heroically defend yourself against a couple of gankers MIGHT be done, but not against a horde of them. So you MIGHT choose to use your heroic deed point.

How would it work? I don't know. You would probably obtain them through some regular playing, I suppose. Killing stuff, and completing quests. Maybe you obtain them after killing mobs that come by more than one at a time, in a "large aggro radius" place... THERE, you're getting the sense of danger. After you've done that, you're allowed to risk your neck all you want.

Limitations? Hell yes!! Once this has been triggered, you REMAIN permakillable until your "linked target" gets it!! Meaning, if you abuse that and try to use it against someone obviously stronger than you to assault him, and are forced to flee, then you remain permakillable until you either chase him down and for good, or until you encounter a nasty and angry/hungry mob that kills you because you played stupidly. Maybe this can reduce the ganking population in any game. Specially if you limit the use of such things to when you've been hit first. You're making your heroic moment... well... heroic. Not just tremendously aggressive.

What else could be done to promote PvP AND permadeath? People fed up with their characters that want to get him to the pantheon of a game. The devs offer a position as big bad boy in a particular quest to ALL the characters signing in for the position. In order to get to the position, you have to eliminate all other pretenders and PHAGOCYTE them!!! While you're on this quest, there is no way you can achieve anything else, as no one will accept to talk to you, and no loot will ever be found in spiders backpockets, even if they are "ultra-big fanged demonic tarentula" and you had to raid them sixty times with your friends... So you're completely devoted to the task of getting yourself killed one way or another, and killing the rest of the pretenders one way or another. And by PHAGOCYTING them, I DO mean, getting most of their stats. Which in the end should produce a monstrous offspring with über loot, and a position of big bad guy, because he has turned to the "dark side", killing everyone to get there. Eventually, said guy will get raided and eliminated, and will enter the lore of the land. Nice way of tying up loose ends, and removing ubergeeks from the game.

Originally posted by Reborn17

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

 

Well it is your game after all, I was just pointing out that when making the type of game I was explaining, you actually give players 3 games to play in 1 therefore giving a chance for high level content and having players actually level and get really great items.  You have 1 game where it's completely safe to play and level. Then you have another game where you fight players and potentially lose some armor,weapons and cash, or they could spend their time fighting to the death to be immortalized on an actual hero board for all the server to see.

The reason I think it would work better, is if you have no rewards for permadeath other then just your honor, then theres nothing pushing up to permadeath other then boredom.  I mean I wouldn't do permadeath unless someone took something from me, or if I wanted to take something from someone, or if I just decided I wanted to be on a leader board and show my skills to the world (or the server). 

I mean sometimes i may want to play a game where I just don't want to deal with permadeath at all and I just want to explore and find awesome loot, in a game that has no awesome loot I can't do that. 

What I'm saying is, you're giving players a chance to explore a world where items, gold, and content actually mean something.  Learning the game, and fighting other players is actually worth something.  Risking it all and putting your very life on the line is both the quickest and hardest way of earning all those cool items in one foul swoop.  I totally agree with you choice of risk I suppose I just took it one step further.

 

Cool, cool. I actually identified 14 levels of play people game in and are available in my design and you're right, nothing is pushing the player to participate in duels to the death but honor, but that's why people used to do it in real life, so I see no problem with that. I want players to have to make such choices and learn things. Will I negotiate or risk death? Will I reevaluate the annoyance of this person and agree to disagree or will we fight and possibly die. You see, its much like real life. Respect between men is predicated on the threat of violence. I know that if I disrespect a man in a certain way we may have to fight, and even die over this perceived insult. So you know what happens? We treat each other with a certain level of respect. So it would be in the game world. if you knew there could be such long range consequences for your actions, you may think twice. Especially since it doesn't have to be the person you insulted or griefed who may challenge you, it may be his guildie, his friend, his High level alt etc.. Its time to man up in these games IMO and force people to consider their actions . I think the genre's fanbase has come of age and is ready to deal with adult interaction and themes (not XXX per se ;) )

Also there IS lotsa awesome loot, unique, valuable, hard to get, all that, but would you die for a Bentley GT?  Or a Beverley Hills mansion? I mean really die. Like its over. Finit, Kaput? Would you go 99 levels and risk PD for the best sword in the game? Which of course has to be in a suitably difficult place to be worthy of such a sword. What if your healer disconnects on that mish? The phone rings? The baby cries? Then when the GM says tough luck, the design team's to blame? I'm sure some would have no problem with that, but in an ideal game your disappearance would mean losing something valuable.  Something more than having the sword for having it's sake could provide. I think actually failing (and possibly plus debt) is price enough to pay,  and then possibly having to once again determine the new location of the item, starting with little more than the remnants of what's left behind from your last failed encounter. Perhaps after trying and failing 3 times on your fourth attempt the holder is so sick of seeing you he kills you outright with the full power of the sword leaving your party members to face him alone. Like I said, I'm not saying there aren't scenarios in which PD wouldn't work gamewise, there's a whole genre of literature and movies dedicated to tragedy, I just personally think since my limits are so few in the game, and debt is usually a sufficient enough penalty, players wouldn't use it unless it was personalized i.e. My name is Innigo Montoya, you murdered