its all there is to-do in ALL online games today.Theres no base meaning, and no storyline. b-4 it was like "ur a time traveling cop, who plays by his/her own rules , and Billy Bob just kidnapped ur daughter  ,killed both of ur hamsters  ,  and ripped ot ur freashly planted dasies . And ur the only one who can stop him!! and it all ends out in a fight    and it ends with "Billy"  dead and u with a black eye and a few missing teeth . But NOOOOOO...  ya just learn how to play get to lv 15 or 20 start a guild and grind, grind, grind. then u get bored sop playin and get banned, yes banned. FYI no this is not from personal experiance.  i just wany a game WITH A POINT!! AND STAYS TO IT , and doesent  just  forget it hafway into the game.

thx for listining to my  rant,

-hellsfear

ps: pole hs been edited in

I agree. There are no more plots. And, now games are all computer based. you just sit and watch. Thats why I prefer FPS/TPS. Your character is as good as YOU are, not just botting to level 50, and pwning newbs that are all lv 2. In FPS/TPS, if you hack to lv 50, and go against an experienced level 1, he is gonna MAUL YOUR ARSE!

So, WarRock, Crysis beta, CS:S(though their vocab consists of: F*** S**t Gay, Fag, OMG, WTF.)

the point to all mmo's since time began has been the grind....no matter how they disguise it, you'll find it somewhere.  In fact, I'd venture to say, w/o the grind...you don't have an mmorpg....

im srry this may sound stupid but whats Fps/Tps?

Im not sure if i missed the point of your post but lets go kick billys ASS

Originally posted by Bodysnatcher

Im not sure if i missed the point of your post but lets go kick billys ASS

.........why not, it has a point doesent it?  but its

Originally posted by hellsfear

im srry this may sound stupid but whats Fps/Tps?

FPS= First Person Shooter TPS= Third Person Shooter

majora4 talking about  fps's on an mmo site= dumb/irrelevant

I think it means first person shooter and third person shooter    could be wrong though.

I agree with your post except some games stick to a story line alittle to much or maybe just the wrong way.

Like not being able to be evil in LOTRO but then the games like WOW where the story line hardly matters brings about a lack of depth for me.  Grind is a part of MMOs but that doesnt mean there can't be a point to it.  I am looking forward to WAR. Maybe they will do a good job of balancing the overall story as part of the grind.   Also PotBS looks good as a kinda of create your own story line by what you choose to play type MMOs.

Hope this made sense.

Well, Yeah, FPS/TPS is first/third person shooter. And, I am reffering to FPSMMORPGs, like CS:S and Warrock.

Originally posted by Kyleran

the point to all mmo's since time began has been the grind....no matter how they disguise it, you'll find it somewhere.  In fact, I'd venture to say, w/o the grind...you don't have an mmorpg....

Exactly.

Lack of imagination and fantasy, i mean grind? , sorry is a word invented by people who simply do not seem to get involve'd with a game. All they seem to see is grind and when you ask them make a new toon all they can think of is "i'm not gonna grind those lvl's again" The not able to say "Cool lets make fun with a new toon"

You see it's not the games that are grind it's people who make it a grind. When people learn to play games again and not treath there games like it is a job then we would see allot more happy gamers, but untill people will continue to play these games like a job i feel we havn't heard the last of the word GRIND.

games give players goals, and players pursue those goals.  that's been gaming ever since pong.  hell, ever since the earliest board games, even.  it's what gaming is.

it's a "grind" when the only engaging goals have to do with character progression.  gaining xp, skills, equipment, etc. as opposed to say, in a sp rpg, where the goal is to follow a storyline, change the gameworld, etc.

i think there are ways of getting away from that in mmos, giving players goals that aren't just about watching thier pet toons grow, but it'd take some innovation, which mmo devs are either lacking, or afraid of taking risks on.

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Originally posted by Reklaw
Lack of imagination and fantasy, i mean grind? , sorry is a word invented by people who simply do not seem to get involve'd with a game. All they seem to see is grind and when you ask them make a new toon all they can think of is "i'm not gonna grind those lvl's again" The not able to say "Cool lets make fun with a new toon"
You see it's not the games that are grind it's people who make it a grind. When people learn to play games again and not treath there games like it is a job then we would see allot more happy gamers, but untill people will continue to play these games like a job i feel we havn't heard the last of the word GRIND.

---

I would agree with you, but I can't because I know better and I actually know what the word grind means when referring to MMO's. Grinding is killing creatures for XP. Questing is something different. Sure that word can be applied to questing in a literal sense but MMO folks usually apply the word questing or adventuring.

So, lesson recap: Grinding = killing creeps...can also be called training.

Questing = um...doing quest or a.k.a; Adventuring.

Now....there are a few games out there that actually try to thwart grinding by giving better XP for questing. However, questing is meaningless if it isn't memorable which imo most happen to be. This is where innovation is needed. I once again have to refer to one game and one game only who tried to make questing memorable; Guild Wars. Clear cut storyline that no matter what I do...I will never forget it.

I may have not remembered each quest, but I do remember each area because of the story. The way the story was intertwined with progression made me that much more attached to it's pve. However, because the lvl cap was so low it made me care about my characters less. Honest mistake on their part. They couldn't have know that would happen. Now in GW2 the cap will be higher.

As I have lvled in other games with higher caps, I have cared about them because of time put in. Flip side is that while caring about my character...I gave two shits about the story, quest, plotlines, etc etc etc. The three B's; Bland, Boring and Bullshite. Half the time I'm not even reading the text. Just scanning towards " Collect ____fill in the blank and return them to so and so. No connection beyond that.

So, in the end I think that it's not what option can we add to a game to make it ours (as most MMO's basically have the same key componets which incidentally makes it an MMO whether we all think so or not), it's more of how do we connect players to our world. In turn I think this is where all the innovation should be focused: Story telling.

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Originally posted by joeyboots

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Originally posted by hellsfear

im srry this may sound stupid but whats Fps/Tps?

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FPS= First Person Shooter TPS= Third Person Shooter
majora4 talking about fps's on an mmo site= dumb/irrelevant

---

Maybe you didn't notice this was the general area, and games besides MMO's have been discussed many times on this site, especially FPS/TPS. Not only the fact that these type of games can actually influence new ideas, but the reverse also.

Originally posted by majora4

Well, Yeah, FPS/TPS is first/third person shooter. And, I am reffering to FPSMMORPGs, like CS:S and Warrock.

Did you really just say that CS:S is an MMO?

Originally posted by Sovren1

 

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Originally posted by Reklaw
Lack of imagination and fantasy, i mean grind? , sorry is a word invented by people who simply do not seem to get involve'd with a game. All they seem to see is grind and when you ask them make a new toon all they can think of is "i'm not gonna grind those lvl's again" The not able to say "Cool lets make fun with a new toon"
You see it's not the games that are grind it's people who make it a grind. When people learn to play games again and not treath there games like it is a job then we would see allot more happy gamers, but untill people will continue to play these games like a job i feel we havn't heard the last of the word GRIND.

---

 

I would agree with you, but I can't because I know better and I actually know what the word grind means when referring to MMO's. Grinding is killing creatures for XP. Questing is something different. Sure that word can be applied to questing in a literal sense but MMO folks usually apply the word questing or adventuring.

So, lesson recap: Grinding = killing creeps...can also be called training.

Questing = um...doing quest or a.k.a; Adventuring.

Now....there are a few games out there that actually try to thwart grinding by giving better XP for questing. However, questing is meaningless if it isn't memorable which imo most happen to be. This is where innovation is needed. I once again have to refer to one game and one game only who tried to make questing memorable; Guild Wars. Clear cut storyline that no matter what I do...I will never forget it.

I may have not remembered each quest, but I do remember each area because of the story. The way the story was intertwined with progression made me that much more attached to it's pve. However, because the lvl cap was so low it made me care about my characters less. Honest mistake on their part. They couldn't have know that would happen. Now in GW2 the cap will be higher.

As I have lvled in other games with higher caps, I have cared about them because of time put in. Flip side is that while caring about my character...I gave two shits about the story, quest, plotlines, etc etc etc. The three B's; Bland, Boring and Bullshite. Half the time I'm not even reading the text. Just scanning towards " Collect ____fill in the blank and return them to so and so. No connection beyond that.

So, in the end I think that it's not what option can we add to a game to make it ours (as most MMO's basically have the same key componets which incidentally makes it an MMO whether we all think so or not), it's more of how do we connect players to our world. In turn I think this is where all the innovation should be focused: Story telling.

Grinding does not exist.  Grinding is a state of mind.  It is only real to you.  If you are bored with something and continue doing it, you will feel grind.  How do we know that grinding does not equal killing mobs?  Because many people enjoy doing that, and so it is fun for them and so does not exist.  To other people grinding does equal killing mobs and is not fun for them, and so they are totally bored and feel the only reason they are doing it is to get xp for a level or skill.

Therefore if some people enjoy the activity it is not a grind, if some people don't, it is a grind.  Since it comes down to whether or not you enjoy it, grind is simply a state of mind, it doesnot exist.  It is entirely your perception.  Which means it can exist in every game depending on your point of view (as we can see from dozens of other threads like this), or in none (again as we can see in dozens of other threads, with people saying grind is that, grind is that this game has less, no it has more...)

In summary again grinding can only be labeled as one activity or another if that is the activity that you don't like doing.

Venge Sunsoar

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

In summary again grinding can only be labeled as one activity or another if that is the activity that you don't like doing.

Venge Sunsoar

Damn... I guess I'm grinding here at work today.... 

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Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

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Originally posted by Sovren1

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Originally posted by Reklaw
Lack of imagination and fantasy, i mean grind? , sorry is a word invented by people who simply do not seem to get involve'd with a game. All they seem to see is grind and when you ask them make a new toon all they can think of is "i'm not gonna grind those lvl's again" The not able to say "Cool lets make fun with a new toon"
You see it's not the games that are grind it's people who make it a grind. When people learn to play games again and not treath there games like it is a job then we would see allot more happy gamers, but untill people will continue to play these games like a job i feel we havn't heard the last of the word GRIND.

---

I would agree with you, but I can't because I know better and I actually know what the word grind means when referring to MMO's. Grinding is killing creatures for XP. Questing is something different. Sure that word can be applied to questing in a literal sense but MMO folks usually apply the word questing or adventuring.
So, lesson recap: Grinding = killing creeps...can also be called training.
Questing = um...doing quest or a.k.a; Adventuring.

Now....there are a few games out there that actually try to thwart grinding by giving better XP for questing. However, questing is meaningless if it isn't memorable which imo most happen to be. This is where innovation is needed. I once again have to refer to one game and one game only who tried to make questing memorable; Guild Wars. Clear cut storyline that no matter what I do...I will never forget it.
I may have not remembered each quest, but I do remember each area because of the story. The way the story was intertwined with progression made me that much more attached to it's pve. However, because the lvl cap was so low it made me care about my characters less. Honest mistake on their part. They couldn't have know that would happen. Now in GW2 the cap will be higher.
As I have lvled in other games with higher caps, I have cared about them because of time put in. Flip side is that while caring about my character...I gave two shits about the story, quest, plotlines, etc etc etc. The three B's; Bland, Boring and Bullshite. Half the time I'm not even reading the text. Just scanning towards " Collect ____fill in the blank and return them to so and so. No connection beyond that.
So, in the end I think that it's not what option can we add to a game to make it ours (as most MMO's basically have the same key componets which incidentally makes it an MMO whether we all think so or not), it's more of how do we connect players to our world. In turn I think this is where all the innovation should be focused: Story telling.

---

I really have to disagree with this. To me grinding does not equal killing mobs. Actually I do agree more with Reklaw.
Grinding does not exist. Grinding is a state of mind. It is only real to you. If you are bored with something and continue doing it, you will feel grind. How do we know that grinding does not equal killing mobs? Because many people enjoy doing that, and so it is fun for them and so does not exist. To other people grinding does equal killing mobs and is not fun for them, and so they are totally bored and feel the only reason they are doing it is to get xp for a level or skill.
Therefore if some people enjoy the activity it is not a grind, if some people don't, it is a grind. Since it comes down to whether or not you enjoy it, grind is simply a state of mind, it doesnot exist. It is entirely your perception. Which means it can exist in every game depending on your point of view (as we can see from dozens of other threads like this), or in none (again as we can see in dozens of other threads, with people saying grind is that, grind is that this game has less, no it has more...)
In summary again grinding can only be labeled as one activity or another if that is the activity that you don't like doing.
Venge Sunsoar

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I said in the literal anything can be grinding in game, but when the word was passed around in games of old which you would know if you played them that GRIND = KILLING MOBS FOR XP. Google it. Ask longtime MMO folks what people are referring to when saying the word grind. How many times have you heard the word Asian grinders? These games are about killing endless mobs and questing in these is pure back burner.

Disagree all you want. Sure the actual meaning of the word can be applied to many things in a game or even the real world for that matter, but when speaking about MMO culture...it's referring to killing creeps for xp. Just like Rock and Roll can be applied to many things, but when speaking about music...it's a particular type.

What do you think people are talking about when saying they are "GRINDING" to LVL faster? TWO ROUTES TO LEVELING GRINDING V.S. QUESTING. There is much debate in many games as to which is faster to reach lvl cap. Play a few MMO's and learn your lingo FOO.

GRINDING, QUESTING, LFG, GLF, OMW, LEECHING, KS or kill stealer, IC or in character, DOT or damage over time, MOBS, KITING, DPS, CAREBEAR, BIND CAPMING, AoE, AGGRO, PROC, BUILDS, FARM, ALTS, GIMPING, TANKS, WTS, WTB, PULLING, NERF, POWERLEVELING, SNARES, TAPPING, SPECS, STACKING refers to spell stacking, TWINKING, PVE, NUKING, XP, SOULBOUND, BINDING, MAIN (big one here), RARES, LOOT, CAMP, SPAWNKILLING, PK, GRIEFING, Ganking...all have particular attachments when speaking about MMO's, but when applied to other things mean different things.

OOH, don't let me forget...SPIKERS, INTERUPTERS, TWISTING, ROOTS, BOTTS, CORPSE RUNNING, IRL, KoS, LINKING, MEZ, old school MOOs, Mule or BANK, NINJA, PAT, QQ, PUGZ, DKP, GM's, LoS, ROLLING, COH, MEDDING, REZ, SHARD, etc etc etc.

And coming from someone who joined this site three years ago. Hmm, you should know this stuff by now.

Grind is the work a heroe must do, to finally become one. It's the part they don't show in the movies. It's what a heroe need to do so he can have a castle, a nice magic weapon, and enough money to pay for his/her army. I honestly think that players who complain about grind are the ones who though that they were supposed to be the "aragorn" or "luke" of the game world they started to play. This raises a quiestion, if everyone is uber, who's really uber?. Most players who think this way should stick with pc, p3 or xbox role playing games, because their is no MMO that will satisfy your needs.

Sorrey Sovren  again I have to disagree.  I did play games of old, not meridiant 59 type old but  I've been playing since just after the Kunark expansion in EQ. 

Grinding never really meant killing mobs, it always meant something that was boring, you know... a grind.  It just so happens that in that game thats what you did most of the time was just kill mobs.

Venge Sunsoar