I got into a discussion over in the wow section of these boards.  and I thought I would further the discussion by asking non-WoW players their opinion as well. 

Here is part of what I said:

The absolute funniest thing about the whole DKP vs Random loot arguement is the fact that it shows just how greedy DKP using guilds are. 

IF you only invite people that you would actually want to play with into your guild then why would it be an issue if the loot is randomed for anyone that wants it?  Each of those people is a member of your guild correct?  Each of those people is helping to make the guild a better guild right? 

Or does the guild invite players to be used?  Dangle the Carrot of DKP in front of them and the fact that they might some day earn enough DKP to bid on an item, so you can fill out your raids and gear up you and your friends.  But of course the guild always forgets to tell that by the time the more casual players get enough DKP to bid on something they are getting the left overs that "power" gamer doesn't want. 

There in lies the rub of the DKP vs Random Loot arguement.  DKP is a tool definitely.  But it is a tool that uses casual players unfairly. 

Power gamers inherently will get their loot first.  For example there is a 10% chance that Loot "X" will drop and the guild raids that dungeon 4 times a month.  Power Gamer "A" attends every raid.  Casual Gamer "B" can only go once per month.  That gives Power Gamer "A" 4 tries to get the item and it gives casual gamer "B" only 1 try per month to get the item.  Sure sometimes Loot "X" will drop on that one time when both Casual Gamer "B" and Power Gamer "A" is there and casual gamer "B" might get it, but it could also drop 3 times that month and all three times could be when Power gamer "A" is there and CAsual Gamer "B" isn't.  So the item ends up getting sharded. 

So, the system just isn't a fair system to all involved.  I will agree it is a great system for "power" gamers.  They sure end up getting geared up extremely quick on the backs of casual gamers.  And it is an awesome system if the guild is all made up of "power" gamers and the guild requires 80%+ attendance or you are booted and they don't use any casual gamers.  Then I see it as a fair system because everyone is playing on an equal playingfield. 

So what does everyone else think.  I obviously think that any guild that makes use of CAsual players to fill out their raid force and then uses DKP is a greedy guild that is using the casual players.  Any thoughts? 

If you understand the guilds chosen loot system and you decide to remain a member and a raider with that guild than you have no room to complain.  Period.

I mean, if you're intelligent enough to not be a complete waste of space in a raid then you're intelligent enough to know what DKP is.  Basically this is something every guild should decide themselves with their own members.  Casual raiders need to understand though that the system is not designed in their favor, so unless they're raiding for the joy of raiding they're probably going to be SOL.

The only problem I have with guilds is that they generally aren't DKP guilds at all. 
Regardless of DKP, they will give out the rewards to their friends by saying certain classes can't buy certain items. 

I'm more in favor of getting rid of huge raids that require tons of players because that is where DKP systems are heavily used. 

Raids should be designed for smaller numbers of players so it encourages small friendly guilds rather than huge disorganized messes  where no one really likes eachother. 

If that were the case, guilds would be happy with decisions on who gets the loot because they all know each other.  When it goes to a person that no one really knows, but has a lot of a DKP, it is kind of dangerous.  I know a few of the warriors in my WoW guild sold their character for 1-2k after spending all their DKP. 

In conclusion, games with huge raids suck and encourage lousy DKP systems

As if we have the power to stop guilds from using DKP, why is this even worth talking about? Personally if you get into a guild that uses a loot policy you do not like then why stay? It isn't going to change anything what we say about it. DKP is the most fair and antiquated method of in game democracy I have ever seen. DKP is fair and people who avoid it are either carebear players or just think they have a better solution, of which I haven't seen anything come close to DKP and attendance for raid guilds.

Originally posted by bezado

As if we have the power to stop guilds from using DKP, why is this even worth talking about? Personally if you get into a guild that uses a loot policy you do not like then why stay? It isn't going to change anything what we say about it. DKP is the most fair and antiquated method of in game democracy I have ever seen. DKP is fair and people who avoid it are either carebear players or just think they have a better solution, of which I haven't seen anything come close to DKP and attendance for raid guilds.

Can we please decide if a player is a carebear because they don't like full loot PVP or if they are a carebear because they don't like hardcore raiding.  Because it can't mean both. 

As I stated in my first post, I do not see how DKP is the most fair system.  What about it actually makes it fair?  How is it more fair then using the ingame random system?  Honestly any system except for the ingame random system will have some level of bias and favoritism.  So how can you say it is more fair?

Personally I think that if a game has class loot then a round robin system is more fair then DKP. 

Originally posted by Korusus

If you understand the guilds chosen loot system and you decide to remain a member and a raider with that guild than you have no room to complain.  Period.

Total agreement.  That's why I don't hang out for long in guilds that use a DKP system.  Of course i nearly hate raiding in the first place, so I don't usually join hardcore raiding guilds to begin with.

I hate the DKP system but I think in reality, it's the most fair way to handle time invested/reward within a guild. Sure, it discourages non-guildies from participating in guild raids and can't work in P/U groups. I think future games should have an in-game solution to this. Something that makes loot acquisition fair to everyone involved in a large raid group and not a process reliant on systems outside the game.

How do I propose this is done? I don't know. I'm not a game designer. Maybe instead of giving us the same recycled crap year after year, game devs can start putting their heads together and remedy this and other clunky systems MMORPG players have labored under for close to a decade now. I think what WoW did with ZG is approaching some sort of solution with the coins that dropped that could be turned in for gear and items.

Sure, it wouldn't be exactly fair if EVERYBODY got some great weapon or piece of gear every time they went dungeon crawling, but the coins did make each trip into the instance rewarding on some level, even if you didn't get a great drop.

Honestly, I think almost every aspect of raiding as it exists today is flawed and needs to be reevaluated. Devs seem to be taking baby steps with this, by scaling down the number of party members required in a raid group and making dungeons a little more dynamic, but I think we've got a long way to go until raids are more fun than frustrating and feel less like a part-time job and more like a good time.

My views are that under a DKP system it generally leads to players hoarding DKP and not buying gear that would improve their character and the raids.  So instead of buying that tier 2 set of armor, the warrior is trying to get some garbage weapon like ashkandi.  Sorry for the old example, i quit that garbage game a long time ago.

Honestly Game developers need to get away from the carrot on a stick mentality when it comes to raiding.  Make raids dynamic and fun to attend and not a boring grind.  Randomize them so that they are a little bit different which will help to deter from the boredom and then yes have loot drop for every class if loot is going to be a big deal. 

Or even better make raid loot trivial with minimal stat upgrades and major cosmetic upgrades.  That way Raid loot is a way to distinguish yourself from other players without overpowering yourself and leading to mudflation.  That is one of the worst things about World of Warcraft.  They have continued to make their items so much more powerful which has really trivialized prior content. 

Dark Age of Camelot did a pretty good job with their Shrouded Isle expansion (pretty much before Trials of Atlantis).  Sure there were Epic dungeons to raid but the loot wasn't that much better then player crafted and spellcrafted loot.  It looked cool though.  Had cool particle effects which made it wanted.  But it was not overpowered.  Plus in DAoC there was no number cap on Raids.  16 "power" gamers could go and complete content or 100 "casual" gamers could go and complete the same content.  If you had less skill at playing the game, then you just threw more players at it.  It was chaotic but gave everyone equal access to all the content in the game.  (Of course Trials of Atlantis when it came out changed that for the worse and is partially to blame for the fall of DAoC).

Originally posted by Cabe2323

Honestly Game developers need to get away from the carrot on a stick mentality when it comes to raiding.  Make raids dynamic and fun to attend and not a boring grind.  Randomize them so that they are a little bit different which will help to deter from the boredom and then yes have loot drop for every class if loot is going to be a big deal. 

Or even better make raid loot trivial with minimal stat upgrades and major cosmetic upgrades.  That way Raid loot is a way to distinguish yourself from other players without overpowering yourself and leading to mudflation.  That is one of the worst things about World of Warcraft.  They have continued to make their items so much more powerful which has really trivialized prior content. 

Dark Age of Camelot did a pretty good job with their Shrouded Isle expansion (pretty much before Trials of Atlantis).  Sure there were Epic dungeons to raid but the loot wasn't that much better then player crafted and spellcrafted loot.  It looked cool though.  Had cool particle effects which made it wanted.  But it was not overpowered.  Plus in DAoC there was no number cap on Raids.  16 "power" gamers could go and complete content or 100 "casual" gamers could go and complete the same content.  If you had less skill at playing the game, then you just threw more players at it.  It was chaotic but gave everyone equal access to all the content in the game.  (Of course Trials of Atlantis when it came out changed that for the worse and is partially to blame for the fall of DAoC).

I partly agree..  The WoW items aren't good enough imo.  In everquest, a person who was wearing full planar gear would be almost impossible to kill vs 10 luclin geared people.  In WoW, it is like a tier 5 player can get beat by 2 scrubs who never raided in their life.  Not much of an incentive for beating their PvE system which is very difficult compared to their boring PvP system which requires almost no skill.

Originally posted by Ginkeq

 

Originally posted by Cabe2323

Honestly Game developers need to get away from the carrot on a stick mentality when it comes to raiding.  Make raids dynamic and fun to attend and not a boring grind.  Randomize them so that they are a little bit different which will help to deter from the boredom and then yes have loot drop for every class if loot is going to be a big deal. 

Or even better make raid loot trivial with minimal stat upgrades and major cosmetic upgrades.  That way Raid loot is a way to distinguish yourself from other players without overpowering yourself and leading to mudflation.  That is one of the worst things about World of Warcraft.  They have continued to make their items so much more powerful which has really trivialized prior content. 

Dark Age of Camelot did a pretty good job with their Shrouded Isle expansion (pretty much before Trials of Atlantis).  Sure there were Epic dungeons to raid but the loot wasn't that much better then player crafted and spellcrafted loot.  It looked cool though.  Had cool particle effects which made it wanted.  But it was not overpowered.  Plus in DAoC there was no number cap on Raids.  16 "power" gamers could go and complete content or 100 "casual" gamers could go and complete the same content.  If you had less skill at playing the game, then you just threw more players at it.  It was chaotic but gave everyone equal access to all the content in the game.  (Of course Trials of Atlantis when it came out changed that for the worse and is partially to blame for the fall of DAoC).

 

I partly agree..  The WoW items aren't good enough imo.  In everquest, a person who was wearing full planar gear would be almost impossible to kill vs 10 luclin geared people.  In WoW, it is like a tier 5 player can get beat by 2 scrubs who never raided in their life.  Not much of an incentive for beating their PvE system which is very difficult compared to their boring PvP system which requires almost no skill.

The only reason that World of warcraft is so successful is because the leveling game is so accessible.  If the entire game was designed like their raid system is the game would of been a massive failure. 

Developers need to realize that gearflation is not the answer.  All that does is keep players around until a viable alternative comes along.  Another part of WoW's success is that it hasn't had any viable competition.   No one has come out and launched a similarly polished MMO with massive Advertising like WoW.  The first game that does that has a chance to see massive subscription numbers like WoW has.  Even LOTRO with their extremely well known IP never advertised like World of Warcraft does.  They advertise in mainstream media.  All the other MMO developers only advertise to Us the gamers, in things like PC Gamer, on MMO board, on other gaming boards, etc.  World of Warcraft has Office Space commercials, Pepsi (or was it Coke?) commercials, Toyota commercials, gets mentioned on numerous television shows.  (Heck I even saw it on Moonlight on CBS of all stations)  World of Warcraft gets mentioned by people like Dave Chappelle and Stephen Colbert.  No other MMO has gotten that type of press.  IF EA pays for that type of advertising like Vivendi did for WoW, we may finally see a true competitor to WoW.  But that is all off topic. 

The fact remains that giving "raiders" better rewards is definitely not the answer.  The gear gap should be pretty much zero, not massive like in EQ1. 

I personally think that Asheron's Call 1 had the absolute best gear system ever designed.  It was a true Random object generated system.  Pretty much any monster had a chance of dropping the best loot in the game.

I didn't mind dkp, was in a few guilds that used it.

I think of it like this. It makes sense to reward those who put in more time. The system is promote fairness. The one I liked best was a zero sum system because the rotation forced folks down the line. The ways it fails is when folks mess with it.

For instance:
Offering DKP for tasks or offerings to the guild - The problem here is verifying value and the marking being done privately. I've heard of this being abused. Friends give their friend a lot of dkp for small contributions just to bump them up the line because they don't play as often.

Roll restrictions by class - There is a lot of this. You only roll on the role you play. This leaves hybrids to fend for themselves on secondary gear. Players expect their hybrids to be ready to adapt to a new role but complain when they expect more than 1 set of gear to actually do it! This also leads to a hybrid spending more dkp for items if they have to gear for multiple roles and are allowed to roll on multiple types of items. Realistically, if you want them to play 2 roles, you should only make them pay 1/2 dkp for items if they get the roll. They should still be limited to getting their dkp judged evenly, just when it comes to spending - they need to spend less for it to work right.

Roll restrictions for sellable items - Lots of times, items that could be sold were just deposited in the guild bank to "give" to other players later or to use for crafting items for specific players. Those players generally didn't pay dkp for the item and essentially get it free. The other players in the raid got nothing for that item that could have been sold. One thing I can remember was a case for fire resistance in wow. The tanks were given (yes given, not paid for and not dkp spent for) fr gear from crafted rare guild mats... all the other players had to fend for themselves and find/buy/grind out some way to get fr gear and they expected you to get around 200 fr. That's a clear case of favoritism to make it easy on the tanks with the excuse that it benefits the guild which implies that gearing anyone else wouldn't? Last time I checked, that tank needed the other 39 of us to stay alive too as much as they like to imagine they are a one man wrecking crew.

Recipe drops going to guild crafters (wow)- This one I have yet to see used with dkp. All the guilds just seemed to have one crafter and that particular person got the recipe regardless of dkp. While that is nice for them it leads to a hierarchy that ignores the dkp solution that is supposed to be in place. They cover it up by saying, well, we are afraid to give recipes to non-officers that may leave the guild etc.

When they mess with the system like the above scenarios, it can become unfair.

As for the person that attends more raids and has more chances - that's natural. I don't find  it unfair that they only got 1 chance out of 4 - they only put in the work for 1 chance. What about the 3 times that other player went that it didn't drop and the 1 time both players are there it does... should the person that has more dkp but only attended once decline the item to the person that went 4 times? Nope, they have the points fair and square. It works both ways.

As for why wow is popular? I can explain that by population - not content - hands down. I know lots of ppl there because they have friends there, they are tired of the game itself. Imagine it like real life. There are 5 bars in a row. One has 2 people in it. Three of them have 10-20 people in them. The final one has 200 people in it. Which one would you end up in for the night. Wow is the last one if you haven't guessed. There are games with a better crafting system, games with a better community, games with better graphics,etc. ya I think I've figured out what keeps ppl from leaving wow and it's not lack of competition or even competent competition by other game producers, it's their stranglehold on population, it's on us to make others known instead of being sheep that just congregate in the easiest place :P

I don't know what I think since I have no idea what DKP means. Someone care to enlighten my ignorance?

Originally posted by Bruxail

I don't know what I think since I have no idea what DKP means. Someone care to enlighten my ignorance?

www.wowwiki.com/Dragon_Kill_Points

DKP is a tool, nothing more. It can be useful, and it can also be used harmfully, it just depends on what the guild does.

In terms of progression, I think that guilds want to find a way to equate time invested to the reward. I tend to believe that the "core" group of raiders who learn strategies and how to work them (it aint as easy as just reading it) are the ones that the guild would like to reward. They are the ones who go all the time, who are working the hardest to "advance" the guild thru instances. Of course then how do you mix in people who are casual raiders, does their contribution mean that much less?

Of course as guilds progress, and DKP add's up, guilds run into issues about what to do when recruiting new members. What is the incentive for Joe Recruit to join a guild if he is down 150 DKP to other members, and he's going to have to raid for 2-3 months to even stand a chance of winning items? What happens when people hoard DKP for ONE item, but pass on items that would upgrade them? Resist gear anyone?

I ran a very successful (Pre-TBC) guild in WoW. It was a tough decision to go with DKP, and despite raiding 4 nights a week, we had many casual raiders (say a core of 15 who'd be there all the time). As such, we had a 40% attendence bid floor. We wanted gear spread out to as many people as possible, because the more geared people, the better off we were (We advanced thru the Spider Wing in Naxx, and of course Raz pre-TBC). The core group was willing to pass gear to other players because they felt more gear and better geared other people was key.

Would the system have worked for us if the core was not willing to upgrade everyone else? Would it have worked if they did not still run MC after we took it off DKP in order to at least start gearing up newer members? Nope.

I said it before. DKP is a tool, nothing more. It'll only work as well as the guild who uses it, and more importantly, HOW they use it. I think it's incredibly easy to abuse if you arent careful.

Everyone is greedy, its the people who don't or won't admit it that one needs to be careful of.

DKP is a fine system for what it needs to do, although there are many variations etc.  Your real problem is that its necessary at all.  Which it is because games like WoW are all about greed and timesinks. 

If the award system and bidding system structured ok, then you won't find any better compromise.

Anyone with half a brain and a smidgen of honesty knows that raiding is about gear not fun.  And it certainly has no real "risk" post-EQ (and even that risk is silly).  Eventually you have to come to some sort of system and letting people bid means they can value you it rather than some petty dictator guild leader.

I think DKP is for the most part balanced much moreso than random rolls for gear.

With a GOOD Dkp system in a GOOD guild (I'm stressing good here because previous posters stated they were in DKP guild but items were just given to friends etc. This denotes to me that their DKP system was crap as is the guild) you get what you give. The person(s) who can use the item have a chance to bid with their DKP on a drop. Whomever has the most (or bids the most,dependant upon the system) wins. The more time you spend raiding and helping your guild the more DKP you will earn and the more gear you will get. This rewards those that put alot of effort into helping their guild.

Random rolls on the other hand are nothing more than sheer luck. Someone new to the guild could suddenly win a roll and get UberitemA, much to the chagrin of others inguild who have been working for 6 months to get the chance at it. You could conceivably get quite a few drops on a raid if you were very lucky.

DKP rewards hard work. Random rolls reward the lucky.

I favor DKP because if I help my guild for 6 months 3-4 night a week to get to a point in a game where the big loots become available then I want my fair shot at them.  And I truly feel that someone who may have spent the same amount of time in my guild but was only able to make 1 raid a week for the last 6 months should also be allowed to get their shot but not at the expense of piggybacking on others hard work. They can wait their turn.

The OP stated that a DKP system promotes greed but in the same token don't you think it's greedy for a player who has put less effort into something to get more out of it? Think of a DKP system as dollars and cents. You goto work (raid) and get paid. The more you work, the more money you have and the more toys you can buy. Whereas using /random would be akin to  PersonA working for 5 days straight and PersonB working for 2 days and at the end management  drops  2 monetary amounts into a hat.1 that equates to 5 days pay and another that equates to 2 days pay. Then management then randomly pick either worker and then draws a monetary amount from the hat and bingo thats what they made that week. Sometimes you get your 5 days pay and sometimes you don't. To me it's greedy and much less fair to do it that way. I'd rather see folks get what they have put into the system.

A part time worker should not ever get the same pay and benefits as a full time one. And this is the jist of your argument. You are stating that a DKP system uses the casual players. Infact it does not. It rewards them for the time and effort they put into it. If they aren't able to put as much time and effort into something why then are they as deserving as someone who puts in more? Plain and simple, they aren't.  You want to go raid 1 night a week? Then take your one nights worth of DKP and be happy. But don't expect to piggyback on the hard work of those that play 4-5 times a week and convey their hard work into your loot by calling foul. DKP isn't greedy. it's people that put in less work and expect more that are greedy.

I get the understanding that the OP is a casual player who may be or had been in a guild where there were others who were "power" gamers. And he's a bit irked at losing out on an item and feels used and betrayed. My question to the OP then is, why are you as a casual player in a guild of hardcore players? Why don't you find a guild more suited to your playtimes? Don't tell me because you spent time in acquiring DKP in this guild, because OMG that makes you as greedy as the hardcore types you dislike.

The end all and be all is that if you as a player don't like or care for a DKP system then leave the guild for one that has a loot system more to your taste. But most serious guilds use some variation of DKP due to the fact that even though it is not perfect by any mean it is universally accepted as being much fairer and less prone to drama than either randoming for loot or having officers award loot based upon some merit system as defined by them.

If you can find a large group of people (40 or so) who will all agree on the best distribution of loot for the betterment of all involved then you don't need a DKP system.

But people are petty, and they bicker, and they find slights in all kinds of crazy things. Without a system of objective rules in place people will see favorites and feel that they're being cheated.

DKP is the best system I have yet seen. As soon as I see something better I'll be happy to go there instead.

DKP is great for a starting guild, or one thats just getting into the swing.

Some people even like it to stick around. The best lootings system I ever had was one where we rolled on items more than one class could use, and the classes just sorta agree'd who got the peices among them. It worked wonders.

The big thing was we were all regular raiders, as well as soild raiders. Never had pugs, never had many casuals, and the casuals that did come, gladly accepted that they only got the scraps, that was part of being the guild.