As TBC has aged, what initially appeared to be a short stick big carrot, has changed.

The inherient mechanics of WoW of course demanded this to be the case, but I for one am curious how much longer this style of game mechanic as we know it will survive.   Last night, perfect example, we're clearing up Kara and my bud pm's me his guild is collapsing.   "Dude, what's up?"

"Man we just one shotted Kara, and sharded all but the T4 helm, AGAIN!"   Long story short is, for the last four weeks they have made almost no gear progression in Kara and Gruuls.  Why?  The same gear dropped, all their Priests have their T4 Gear, their main tank still lacks his helm and his shoulders.  They are frustrated, their lead pally deleted his toons and quit.

This is a perfect example of the main problem with the WoW game system.  While yes it works well 1-69, when you have run the same 5-8 instances over and over and over and over again only to be stymied not by the mundane encounters, but the horrid loot drop system... it was old back before TBC, and it's even more maddening now.

I know WAR is going to try and be not "loot-centric" and from what I have read AoC has plans for a game outside of "Raid for gear to raid for gear so you can raid for gear"

It made sense years ago to adopt such a policy, you keep people hungering for the "gear" but honestly, it's losing it's appeal, and I think we'll see plenty of WoW clones for a while, this mode of game play should be buried.  Developers need to find new ways to keep people coming back, cause who wants to pay to work at a game?

It's pretty common for some people to chew through content faster than the devs can produce it. And with TBC, the devs had to split their effort between 25-mans, 10-mans, heroics and normal instances.

However, I understand Zul Aman is coming out in a short while, which should keep you busy for another few weeks.

What you just explained will be the fatal flaw of WOW.  What's even funnier is that it's going to be more of the same when WOTLK comes out.  WOW has just been lucky because they really have had no competition by other MMO's.  This will change when WAR and AOC comes out. 

When a games feels like a job and/or a grind its time to leave... im holding off for 2.3 with Zul'Aman.. give us more raiding options, and the new AV.. for new PvP options... but my guild only raids 2-3 times a week 1900-2230 so we dont "burn out" or get that "greed - purple haze" feeling that many of the hardcore raid guilds get, raiding just 2-3 nights we are upto lady'vash in SSC and hope to hit TBT next month. So even casual raiding can progress in WoW.

Raiding is a big part of WoW.. you cannot change that now.. WoW does not need a NGE.

Originally posted by MrVicchio

As TBC has aged, what initially appeared to be a short stick big carrot, has changed.

 

The inherient mechanics of WoW of course demanded this to be the case, but I for one am curious how much longer this style of game mechanic as we know it will survive.   Last night, perfect example, we're clearing up Kara and my bud pm's me his guild is collapsing.   "Dude, what's up?"

 

"Man we just one shotted Kara, and sharded all but the T4 helm, AGAIN!"   Long story short is, for the last four weeks they have made almost no gear progression in Kara and Gruuls.  Why?  The same gear dropped, all their Priests have their T4 Gear, their main tank still lacks his helm and his shoulders.  They are frustrated, their lead pally deleted his toons and quit.

 

This is a perfect example of the main problem with the WoW game system.  While yes it works well 1-69, when you have run the same 5-8 instances over and over and over and over again only to be stymied not by the mundane encounters, but the horrid loot drop system... it was old back before TBC, and it's even more maddening now.

 

I know WAR is going to try and be not "loot-centric" and from what I have read AoC has plans for a game outside of "Raid for gear to raid for gear so you can raid for gear"

 

It made sense years ago to adopt such a policy, you keep people hungering for the "gear" but honestly, it's losing it's appeal, and I think we'll see plenty of WoW clones for a while, this mode of game play should be buried.  Developers need to find new ways to keep people coming back, cause who wants to pay to work at a game?

This has been going on from the very begining. The game is all very... samey... For example, you, atleast i, expected that playing a warrior to 1-70 should be a LOT different than playing a druid 1-70 but face the facts, it is pretty much the same.

As for raiding, its a joke. I loved raiding in EQ1 because there we're so many different raids to do and the whole way about it was fantastic. We all entered the planes, ran past 6 or 7 groups who we're leveling, enter the "castle" where the boss is waiting for us and THINK of a way to bring it down... thats right, THINK... not use the internet like these talented WoW Guild Raid Leaders!

As a raiding game, it really is poor. The reason its so popular is that the game is actually good, until the end... i expected the end game to be the best, but nevermind.

People will probably say Warhammer Online will go the same way but they are wrong, very wrong. Warhammer Online is a PvP game, skill is required... theres the difference.

Anyway, gotta eat.

I quit wow after my first MC run.

It was obvious back then, that the raid / loot system was modelled after EQ1 and I been there done that.

I don't understand people obsession with chasing the small carrot, it's mindless and a complete and utter waste of time.

Originally posted by Inrage

What you just explained will be the fatal flaw of WOW.  What's even funnier is that it's going to be more of the same when WOTLK comes out.  WOW has just been lucky because they really have had no competition by other MMO's.  This will change when WAR and AOC comes out. 

How that ? it was already the case before TBC (we killed nefarian back in the days before Naxx like 40 times before we saw a hunter drop when i and my fellows priest all had  our robes and disanchanted a few ones).. not to mention the  time before TBC when the shamn and pally drop came fucking up the things even more.

and that isnt even worse than  all the hard work for legendary weapons fucked up by  TBC...

that one of the WOW grinds ( farming gears)  exist since people start  farming high lvl dongeons and is part of what those 8 ( or 9 ) people like... and it wont kill it unless something better comes out wich isnt the case jsut yet.

 People like carrots, admit it or not the mmorpg are like that... some are lvls xp, some are both gears and xp.. some are only focused on gears ( wow ? )

people that tryed to get away from that standart didint succeed so far ( Ryzom anyone ?)

i  stopped right ebfore TBC.. too much carrots for my stomachs !

my 2 cents on the topic

Originally posted by Sathir

 

Originally posted by MrVicchio

As TBC has aged, what initially appeared to be a short stick big carrot, has changed.

 

The inherient mechanics of WoW of course demanded this to be the case, but I for one am curious how much longer this style of game mechanic as we know it will survive.   Last night, perfect example, we're clearing up Kara and my bud pm's me his guild is collapsing.   "Dude, what's up?"

 

"Man we just one shotted Kara, and sharded all but the T4 helm, AGAIN!"   Long story short is, for the last four weeks they have made almost no gear progression in Kara and Gruuls.  Why?  The same gear dropped, all their Priests have their T4 Gear, their main tank still lacks his helm and his shoulders.  They are frustrated, their lead pally deleted his toons and quit.

 

This is a perfect example of the main problem with the WoW game system.  While yes it works well 1-69, when you have run the same 5-8 instances over and over and over and over again only to be stymied not by the mundane encounters, but the horrid loot drop system... it was old back before TBC, and it's even more maddening now.

 

I know WAR is going to try and be not "loot-centric" and from what I have read AoC has plans for a game outside of "Raid for gear to raid for gear so you can raid for gear"

 

It made sense years ago to adopt such a policy, you keep people hungering for the "gear" but honestly, it's losing it's appeal, and I think we'll see plenty of WoW clones for a while, this mode of game play should be buried.  Developers need to find new ways to keep people coming back, cause who wants to pay to work at a game?

 

Many look at EQ1 through rose-tinted glasses

This has been going on from the very begining. The game is all very... samey... For example, you, atleast i, expected that playing a warrior to 1-70 should be a LOT different than playing a druid 1-70 but face the facts, it is pretty much the same. Yes a Tank spec warrior and a feral druid are.. as they are both Tanks.. but a Tank warrior and a healing druid are 100% different. dumb comparison at best. How about a Hunter a pally.. 100% different a Mage and a Rogue 100% different.. Wow is 1 of the few games were classes are different. and not just a subset of a main class such as having a tank class that can only use axes and a tank class that can only use swords.. those aint classes.

As for raiding, its a joke. I loved raiding in EQ1 because there we're so many different raids to do and the whole way about it was fantastic. We all entered the planes, ran past 6 or 7 groups who we're leveling, enter the "castle" where the boss is waiting for us and THINK of a way to bring it down... thats right, THINK... not use the internet like these talented WoW Guild Raid Leaders!

Think the first few times then its rinse+repeat.. also not all guilds read guides.. but your right I hate the fact they exist and so easy to find.. but the raids in WoW are not easy even with guildes and you do need to think, interact with enviroment at key points, swap agro with other players etc.. most EQ1 raids were tank+spank and nothing more.

As a raiding game, it really is poor. The reason its so popular is that the game is actually good, until the end... i expected the end game to be the best, but nevermind.

As a raid endgame its the best out there IMHO. far suppases EQ1 thats for sure.

People will probably say Warhammer Online will go the same way but they are wrong, very wrong. Warhammer Online is a PvP game, skill is required... theres the difference.

PvP will become just as samey as PvE raiding, I predict WAR players will be crying out for endgame PvE content soon after release... as for skill, no MMO needs skill just needs some 1 to press the right hotkey at the right time.

Anyway, gotta eat.

Me too.

Cupertino,

You maybe right in that some players thinking WAR is just a WoW clone will pine for PvE Raids, but I really hope the Dev's stick to their guns and ignore those people.   WoW's endgame PvE IS the best this style of gameplay has to offer.

And that's the problem, this is it. Raid, to raid for gear to raid for gear.

BORING.

The best example of what I hope you'll see with WAR is Counter Strike.  It's easy to play, fun to do, but to master it requires skill.  Everyone can buy armor, a rifle and a pistol with a few nades, but not everyone is equal.  And I've been playing CS since the colt was a scoped rifle.

That level of repeatable fun will keep me fat and content for months on end.

Couple that with 6 different race areas to bound around in, 4 similar but different classes...  My wife and I plan to play a good portion of each race/class combo.  

WoW.... 6 classes, race doesn't matter and the PvP is a grind for gear that DOESN'T MATTER.  I think that's what irks me the most, the whole game is about grinding for gear, every game to some extent has done that. (Cept DAoC and AO, I loved he concepts but they had issues with execution)  We'll see what happens.

I don't chase carrots.  I had a 'Carrot on a Stick' trinket a while back, which gave a small boost to mount speed - but my horsey was chasing the carrot, not me!

While you guys are chasing carrots, I'm exploring dungeons, fighting with and against other players, working as a team to defeat the big bad monsters, and getting a share of the treasure, or just slaying craptons of nasty evil people for wealth and reputation.

On top of that I try my best to help my guild leader as much as I can, being an officer, it can be tough to keep the guild happy, and our community a friendly place to be.  Sometimes I just dumb the game to a chat room, or just waste hours duelling my guildies, endlessly practising all the little tricks which can give me the edge.

Or a million other reasons I sometimes feel like Azeroth (or Outland) is my second home.  Are we so spoiled these days?  This is what I dreamed of doing years ago when I played the Ultima games.  The dream became a reality with Everquest and ever since then it's just got more compelling.  I never expected that Warcraft would be the universe I find myself doing this stuff in, but hey, the future is here now.

I guess I'm a glass half-full kind of guy.   Good luck with that carrot btw, I'm using a riding crop now. ;)

Originally posted by Recant

I don't chase carrots.  I had a 'Carrot on a Stick' trinket a while back, which gave a small boost to

mount speed - but my horsey was chasing the carrot, not me!

This maybe true, but you are still looking over the rides nose at the carrot Blizz dangles for you!

While you guys are chasing carrots, I'm exploring dungeons, fighting with and against other players, working as a team to defeat the big bad monsters, and getting a share of the treasure, or just slaying craptons of nasty evil people for wealth and reputation.

 

Yeah, we do that too, but this is my 7th MMO I've put more then 6 months of time in, I expect more then redoing the same instances thirty times to get enough gear for me and my cohorts to see the next duneon

 

On top of that I try my best to help my guild leader as much as I can, being an officer, it can be tough to keep the guild happy, and our community a friendly place to be.  Sometimes I just dumb the game to a chat room, or just waste hours duelling my guildies, endlessly practising all the little tricks which can give me the edge.

 

I'm our mage class leader, I can relate to this.

 

Or a million other reasons I sometimes feel like Azeroth (or Outland) is my second home.  Are we so spoiled these days?  This is what I dreamed of doing years ago when I played the Ultima games.  The dream became a reality with Everquest and ever since then it's just got more compelling.  I never expected that Warcraft would be the universe I find myself doing this stuff in, but hey, the future is here now.

 

The future is not with WoW for many of us, we seek better reasons to log in.

I guess I'm a glass half-full kind of guy.   Good luck with that carrot btw, I'm using a riding crop now. ;)

Originally posted by MrVicchio

As TBC has aged, what initially appeared to be a short stick big carrot, has changed.

 

The inherient mechanics of WoW of course demanded this to be the case, but I for one am curious how much longer this style of game mechanic as we know it will survive.   Last night, perfect example, we're clearing up Kara and my bud pm's me his guild is collapsing.   "Dude, what's up?"

 

"Man we just one shotted Kara, and sharded all but the T4 helm, AGAIN!"   Long story short is, for the last four weeks they have made almost no gear progression in Kara and Gruuls.  Why?  The same gear dropped, all their Priests have their T4 Gear, their main tank still lacks his helm and his shoulders.  They are frustrated, their lead pally deleted his toons and quit.

 

This is a perfect example of the main problem with the WoW game system.  While yes it works well 1-69, when you have run the same 5-8 instances over and over and over and over again only to be stymied not by the mundane encounters, but the horrid loot drop system... it was old back before TBC, and it's even more maddening now.

 

I know WAR is going to try and be not "loot-centric" and from what I have read AoC has plans for a game outside of "Raid for gear to raid for gear so you can raid for gear"

 

It made sense years ago to adopt such a policy, you keep people hungering for the "gear" but honestly, it's losing it's appeal, and I think we'll see plenty of WoW clones for a while, this mode of game play should be buried.  Developers need to find new ways to keep people coming back, cause who wants to pay to work at a game?

Unfortunately, this is not a problem exclusive to WoW, but all MMORPGs. The trick is, find a game where you enjoy the ride and aren't just racing ahead grasping at that ellusive "carrot." Eventually, you'll tire of jumping through hoops even in the most dynamic MMORPG.

Originally posted by Inrage

What you just explained will be the fatal flaw of WOW.  What's even funnier is that it's going to be more of the same when WOTLK comes out.  WOW has just been lucky because they really have had no competition by other MMO's.  This will change when WAR and AOC comes out. 

This statement is like a broken record ... I see it in every post that talks about AOC and WAR.

I'm going to have to check these games out - too many people are saying this BUT, they have said this same thing for the 4 years that wow has been out... so far - nothing...

Originally posted by Mentat

 

I'm going to have to check these games out - too many people are saying this BUT, they have said this same thing for the 4 years that wow has been out... so far - nothing...

Not quite 3 years actually.  11/23/07 will be the 3 year anniversary.... but there has been a whole lot of nothing released since then...that part is accurate.

Oh don't you know?  Lord of the Rings, Dungeons and Dragons, Archlord and Dark & Light were all going to kill WoW as well. 

Two more over-hyped fantasy MMOs ought to do it, I reckon.

Originally posted by Inrage

What you just explained will be the fatal flaw of WOW.  What's even funnier is that it's going to be more of the same when WOTLK comes out.  WOW has just been lucky because they really have had no competition by other MMO's.  This will change when WAR and AOC comes out. 

I'm sure WAR will be a real fun game (I'll skip AoC) but the only thing that it will change is the hardcore PvPers will leave WoW.  Then WoW will be more focused on raiding because not everyone likes PvP.

Originally posted by Mentat

 

Originally posted by Inrage

What you just explained will be the fatal flaw of WOW.  What's even funnier is that it's going to be more of the same when WOTLK comes out.  WOW has just been lucky because they really have had no competition by other MMO's.  This will change when WAR and AOC comes out. 

 

This statement is like a broken record ... I see it in every post that talks about AOC and WAR.

I'm going to have to check these games out - too many people are saying this BUT, they have said this same thing for the 4 years that wow has been out... so far - nothing...

I am just stating that WOW will have competition when those games come out.  Yes, WOW does have some competition, but it's far from formidable.  Sorry for the spelling.  Look at the track record for any successful MMO, 3-5 years is the normal peak for subscriptions.   

Originally posted by cupertino

Originally posted by Sathir

 

Originally posted by MrVicchio

As TBC has aged, what initially appeared to be a short stick big carrot, has changed.

 

The inherient mechanics of WoW of course demanded this to be the case, but I for one am curious how much longer this style of game mechanic as we know it will survive.   Last night, perfect example, we're clearing up Kara and my bud pm's me his guild is collapsing.   "Dude, what's up?"

 

"Man we just one shotted Kara, and sharded all but the T4 helm, AGAIN!"   Long story short is, for the last four weeks they have made almost no gear progression in Kara and Gruuls.  Why?  The same gear dropped, all their Priests have their T4 Gear, their main tank still lacks his helm and his shoulders.  They are frustrated, their lead pally deleted his toons and quit.

 

This is a perfect example of the main problem with the WoW game system.  While yes it works well 1-69, when you have run the same 5-8 instances over and over and over and over again only to be stymied not by the mundane encounters, but the horrid loot drop system... it was old back before TBC, and it's even more maddening now.

 

I know WAR is going to try and be not "loot-centric" and from what I have read AoC has plans for a game outside of "Raid for gear to raid for gear so you can raid for gear"

 

It made sense years ago to adopt such a policy, you keep people hungering for the "gear" but honestly, it's losing it's appeal, and I think we'll see plenty of WoW clones for a while, this mode of game play should be buried.  Developers need to find new ways to keep people coming back, cause who wants to pay to work at a game?

 

Many look at EQ1 through rose-tinted glasses

This has been going on from the very begining. The game is all very... samey... For example, you, atleast i, expected that playing a warrior to 1-70 should be a LOT different than playing a druid 1-70 but face the facts, it is pretty much the same. Yes a Tank spec warrior and a feral druid are.. as they are both Tanks.. but a Tank warrior and a healing druid are 100% different. dumb comparison at best. How about a Hunter a pally.. 100% different a Mage and a Rogue 100% different.. Wow is 1 of the few games were classes are different. and not just a subset of a main class such as having a tank class that can only use axes and a tank class that can only use swords.. those aint classes.

As for raiding, its a joke. I loved raiding in EQ1 because there we're so many different raids to do and the whole way about it was fantastic. We all entered the planes, ran past 6 or 7 groups who we're leveling, enter the "castle" where the boss is waiting for us and THINK of a way to bring it down... thats right, THINK... not use the internet like these talented WoW Guild Raid Leaders!

Think the first few times then its rinse+repeat.. also not all guilds read guides.. but your right I hate the fact they exist and so easy to find.. but the raids in WoW are not easy even with guildes and you do need to think, interact with enviroment at key points, swap agro with other players etc.. most EQ1 raids were tank+spank and nothing more.

As a raiding game, it really is poor. The reason its so popular is that the game is actually good, until the end... i expected the end game to be the best, but nevermind.

As a raid endgame its the best out there IMHO. far suppases EQ1 thats for sure.

People will probably say Warhammer Online will go the same way but they are wrong, very wrong. Warhammer Online is a PvP game, skill is required... theres the difference.

PvP will become just as samey as PvE raiding, I predict WAR players will be crying out for endgame PvE content soon after release... as for skill, no MMO needs skill just needs some 1 to press the right hotkey at the right time.

Anyway, gotta eat.

Me too.

 

EQ1 penalized you HARD for dying so you had to get it in a few tries - Wow doesn't hurt as bad to die.

keep that in mind..

Originally posted by MrVicchio

As TBC has aged, what initially appeared to be a short stick big carrot, has changed.

 

The inherient mechanics of WoW of course demanded this to be the case, but I for one am curious how much longer this style of game mechanic as we know it will survive.   Last night, perfect example, we're clearing up Kara and my bud pm's me his guild is collapsing.   "Dude, what's up?"

 

"Man we just one shotted Kara, and sharded all but the T4 helm, AGAIN!"   Long story short is, for the last four weeks they have made almost no gear progression in Kara and Gruuls.  Why?  The same gear dropped, all their Priests have their T4 Gear, their main tank still lacks his helm and his shoulders.  They are frustrated, their lead pally deleted his toons and quit.

 

This is a perfect example of the main problem with the WoW game system.  While yes it works well 1-69, when you have run the same 5-8 instances over and over and over and over again only to be stymied not by the mundane encounters, but the horrid loot drop system... it was old back before TBC, and it's even more maddening now.

 

I know WAR is going to try and be not "loot-centric" and from what I have read AoC has plans for a game outside of "Raid for gear to raid for gear so you can raid for gear"

 

It made sense years ago to adopt such a policy, you keep people hungering for the "gear" but honestly, it's losing it's appeal, and I think we'll see plenty of WoW clones for a while, this mode of game play should be buried.  Developers need to find new ways to keep people coming back, cause who wants to pay to work at a game?

Mmmkay. Who even still does Kara and Gruul? Why aren't you clearing Black Temple yet? And Zul'Aman on the Public Test Realm?

Seriously. You are complaining about months behind content when the only website you go to is monthsbehind.com ? There is plenty to do, step into SSC? The Eye? Black Temple? Hyjal? If that's not your spot of Tea organize a top5-capable arena team. You can only complain about "The same thing over and over" so many times, especially when they have been releasing new instances on a patchly basis and are throwing another new one out next patch (That is currinetly in public testing phase on the PTR). I understand that a lot of people are "casual raiders" but there's been plenty of time for the most casual of raid conglomerations to clear Hyjal (mainly because it's ludacrisly easy) and most of BT (a little bit harder). And trust me, unless you are Nihilum or Death Wish or D&T, you aren't at the BT Gear-Cap yet.

I will agree with your unspoken point that the MMO genre as a whole needs to evolve and introduce a few new concepts.  WoW did exactly what it set out to do.  If that isn't your cup of tea no harm done as there are plenty of people who have been playing this model for 10 years now and the market has exploded over the last 3 years.  It has a proven track record and sadly more companies are going to follow this same model for years to come seeing the new market size.

All blizzard did was compile the best elements of MMOs from the last several years into one package while leaving out much that people complained about.  Not all of the best, but enough to make a well rounded game.  They went the extra mile to not release the game until it was finished and listened to their playerbase about what they wanted.  Hiring former high tiered EQ guild leaders was also very smart on their part as an initial design element.  They listened to what the players wanted instead of dictating what they think players want.

If your/their guild is sharding everything in Karazhan/gruuls and one shotting the whole place you stuck around that dungeon for wayyyy to long.  You/they should have moved on to bigger challenges long ago and raided kara on off nights for those few items that you are missing.  The problem most guilds have is the game gets more challenging after gruuls.  Personally I play for the encounter and not the loot.  Who cares what gear drops as long as you enjoy what you are doing.  After 10 years I've learned gear comes no matter what you do and it isn't the be all end all.  If people are quitting over loot then there are deeper issues than the game.