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Star Trek Online

Star Trek Online 

Perpetual Studios Version Discussion  » POLL: Did The Failure of G&H Lower Your Faith in Perpetual?

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65 posts found
  mackdawg19

Tipster

Joined: 5/28/07
Posts: 868

"If men were created equal, then what happened to game developers?"

10/11/07 3:02:36 PM#21

Why are people talking about bioware like PE is just going to hand STO over to them. That cannot and will not happen unless CBS and PE jointly agree to it. Its trully up to CBS what to do with the license and as far as we know, they want PE to develop it and have not said anything else otherwise. People on these boards love starting rumors about stuff they have no clue about. So hilarious. And the political stuff on a forums board is rather a moot point. Anyways, its funny how you guys think PE looked at there game, GnH and thought it was garbage and canned it. No developer would look at a game they took 5 years to develop and just look at it, say its garbage and drop it. They looked at it in its state, saw that it needed more work then money in there pockets, glanced over to the other hall and saw the Star Trek logo, and new there was more money to be made off that game. They even quietly mentioned this not to long ago after GnH went beta. They had a timeframe from investors to get the game out by this Fall. They new that was not going to happen so investors pulled out. PE tried dragging it along but they knew were the money is. So they went to STO. In a sense it was all about the money. So to say PE is a bad company is purely false, it is actually a smart company. It saw a game for what its worth and knew it could make better money elsewere. Sounds pretty smart to me from any business sense.

GnH will be back in due time. Either when they find new investors, or when STO is out and making money. Even if STO fails after launch, it will sell tons of copies just by name alone. Either way I wish the people at PE the best, and im sure we will see them in many other games to come.

  TheOracle1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/26/07
Posts: 86

You Know I''m Right

 
OP  10/11/07 3:24:07 PM#22

 


GnH will be back in due time. Either when they find new investors, or when STO is out and making money. Even if STO fails after launch, it will sell tons of copies just by name alone. Either way I wish the people at PE the best, and im sure we will see them in many other games to come.


 

review some posters here who played beta. They said it was not good at all. A pale cheap imitation of WoW basically, with serious buggyness and flaws. G&H won't be back, no developer will spend millions to bring it to life when there is not even a market for it.

You have pretty low standards for STO. You stated that it does not matter to you if STO is even a good MMO, you just want it to make money off the IP, and either way you seem to care about PE as if they are your family. ? ??

 

Sure, I would not mind meeting the PE people and having lunch with them. I would love to hear their stories and learn about game development.

But the fact is PE is headed for disaster.

  Brenelael

Guide

Joined: 10/19/06
Posts: 3971

Pointing out the Obvious to the Oblivious since 2006

10/11/07 4:11:22 PM#23

Originally posted by DixonHill

 

Originally posted by TheOracle1

One thing that has been proved is that since PE was formed in 2002, they produced a broken and stale fantasy MMO that is a copy of WoW, bought the IP to Star Trek and began work on Star Trek Online, only to have the online community arise up in backlash against the signs that STO will be a stale MMO that is a copy of WoW. The company has more people demanding PE sell back its IP than keep it! Yet, now the fourth day of the week and PE is silent about STO, except for Daron's paragraph summary.

WARNING: STAY AWAY FROM STO-NET.

You will be censored if you stray from the party line, and many of the few remaining posters are hard-core PE supporters will not let anything or anybody cloud their rosy image of STO and PE.

Is it any wonder PE is taking such great effort to direct people to that site. If you go to startrekonline.com you will see that PE directs readers to STO-NET to join a forum on the news section.

Hmmm....I think things are gonna get ugly for PE fast. This online community is a great force of truth and beauty and we will not let PE get away with raping Star Trek Online.

 

 

That is so not true. There are quite some critical statements regarding STO and PE. You can post there whatever you want as long as you substantiate your posts and not just troll around.  And now please dont quote me those many many many examples of people who got censored and their posts being deleted. The mods most likely had their reasons. (see above, trolling, or of topic what ever)

 

And why does PE assist STO.net and made it the first preffered fansite? Because it is a fansite! And it is the biggest fansite! So where is the problem? A Fansite project is no big deal and very common.

And this community is no "great force of truth and beauty" and will have to watch the PE devil getting away while "raping" STO....lol.

What bad things has PE done so far to STO? Ah yeah, none.

blablabla its getting a WoW clone!  Really? Why?

People, STOP judgeing things you have no idea about. When STO progresses and gets in Beta, and if it then seems to get a bad game, based on real FACTS and Knowlegde about the game, a WoW Clone or like, THEN you can complain. And then i for instance will do so too. But not now. Because there are no reasonable hints or evidence that STO will be a crappy game, or will not please the ST Fans so far.

The problem is I can go and set up a forum and have it up and running in less then about 5 hours. The problem is instead of having an "Official" forum for the game they decided to point people to a totalitarian, PE centric heavily moderated(to the point of being Xenophobic) fansite in the guise of an "Official" forum. The problem is after flippant remarks to the fan base by Daron Stinnett they have pretty much proven that the fan base doesn't mean squat to PE. The problem is that after an uprising in the community that can only be likened to the NGE fiasco after they announced "No PSIs" they have not even acknowledged that there is a problem in their development let alone done anything to fix it. The problem is that the problems are too numerous for one thread to contain so I'll just end it with this bit of wisdom from one Daron Stinnett. "There is still plenty of time to cancel your subscription". Truer words than that have never been spoken about the developing POS that will be Star Trek Online. If the development of this game goes forward as planned with Daron Stinnett at the helm I really hope you enjoy playing your tedious adventure down monotonous street because a lot of people in the Star Trek community won't be there with you. In other words.......Enjoy your WoW in space!!!

 

Bren

while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}

  DixonHill

Novice Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 153

10/11/07 4:27:45 PM#24

 

Originally posted by Brenelael

 

Originally posted by DixonHill

 

Originally posted by TheOracle1

One thing that has been proved is that since PE was formed in 2002, they produced a broken and stale fantasy MMO that is a copy of WoW, bought the IP to Star Trek and began work on Star Trek Online, only to have the online community arise up in backlash against the signs that STO will be a stale MMO that is a copy of WoW. The company has more people demanding PE sell back its IP than keep it! Yet, now the fourth day of the week and PE is silent about STO, except for Daron's paragraph summary.

WARNING: STAY AWAY FROM STO-NET.

You will be censored if you stray from the party line, and many of the few remaining posters are hard-core PE supporters will not let anything or anybody cloud their rosy image of STO and PE.

Is it any wonder PE is taking such great effort to direct people to that site. If you go to startrekonline.com you will see that PE directs readers to STO-NET to join a forum on the news section.

Hmmm....I think things are gonna get ugly for PE fast. This online community is a great force of truth and beauty and we will not let PE get away with raping Star Trek Online.

 

 

That is so not true. There are quite some critical statements regarding STO and PE. You can post there whatever you want as long as you substantiate your posts and not just troll around.  And now please dont quote me those many many many examples of people who got censored and their posts being deleted. The mods most likely had their reasons. (see above, trolling, or of topic what ever)

 

And why does PE assist STO.net and made it the first preffered fansite? Because it is a fansite! And it is the biggest fansite! So where is the problem? A Fansite project is no big deal and very common.

And this community is no "great force of truth and beauty" and will have to watch the PE devil getting away while "raping" STO....lol.

What bad things has PE done so far to STO? Ah yeah, none.

blablabla its getting a WoW clone!  Really? Why?

People, STOP judgeing things you have no idea about. When STO progresses and gets in Beta, and if it then seems to get a bad game, based on real FACTS and Knowlegde about the game, a WoW Clone or like, THEN you can complain. And then i for instance will do so too. But not now. Because there are no reasonable hints or evidence that STO will be a crappy game, or will not please the ST Fans so far.

The problem is I can go and set up a forum and have it up and running in less then about 5 hours. The problem is instead of having an "Official" forum for the game they decided to point people to a totalitarian, PE centric heavily moderated(to the point of being Xenophobic) fansite in the guise of an "Official" forum. The problem is after flippant remarks to the fan base by Daron Stinnett they have pretty much proven that the fan base doesn't mean squat to PE. The problem is that after an uprising in the community that can only be likened to the NGE fiasco after they announced "No PSIs" they have not even acknowledged that there is a problem in their development let alone done anything to fix it. The problem is that the problems are too numerous for one thread to contain so I'll just end it with this bit of wisdom from one Daron Stinnett. "There is still plenty of time to cancel your subscription". Truer words than that have never been spoken about the developing POS that will be Star Trek Online. If the development of this game goes forward as planned with Daron Stinnett at the helm I really hope you enjoy playing your tedious adventure down monotonous street because a lot of people in the Star Trek community won't be there with you. In other words.......Enjoy your WoW in space!!!

 

 

Bren

Ok Bren, then ...what is the development plan with Daron Stinnett? Why will it be a WoW in space? Why? You give not a single little hint, no eividence, nothing.

 

Please tell me, how will STO be? What will the gameplay be like, and last but not least, why. Tell me.

And maybe i am too dumb :) Please dont rip me of with things like "just look around the forum" or stuff like that.

Give me the quotes, the infos. Where are the statements which imply and/or hint the, for instance, grind and item focussed gamestyle of STO.

You say it´ll be a WoW in Space? I say it wont be! Now what? lol, thats not a basis for a discussion. There are simply no facts.

  saduce

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 40

10/11/07 4:33:36 PM#25

  What ever happened to first impressions last a life time.  I waisted my time with G&H along with everyone else.  the only way i look at STO is when its been out for over a year,  but until then STO and PE will get the thumbs down from me any time im asked about them.

  Brenelael

Guide

Joined: 10/19/06
Posts: 3971

Pointing out the Obvious to the Oblivious since 2006

10/11/07 4:41:52 PM#26

Because Daron Stinnett has already proclaimed that they have thrown innovation to the wind and are just going to rehash whats already been done. He said this in several interviews.....I'm not making this up. Now in todays MMO marketplace you can be 99% sure that this means WoW clone as we've seen so many times before. Also with so many of their team coming from Blizzard and WoW its a safe bet that they believe the WoW way is the right way. I will admit that saying it's going to be a WoW clone is a bit of a leap as no one on the team has said this directly but based on the amount of evidence that supports this conclusion you can pretty much say it's a safe bet. Now I have a question for you......why are you dismissing my entire post and only fixating on the last 5 words?

 

Bren

while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}

  mackdawg19

Tipster

Joined: 5/28/07
Posts: 868

"If men were created equal, then what happened to game developers?"

10/11/07 4:43:47 PM#27

Mr. Op, I also did play beta. Just because some people did not like it doesnt mean everyone feels the same way. You apparently have no clue what the game was like, and if you value a couple of kiddies who played a game and wanted more than WoW as your opinon then so be it. I see games for what they are. My hopes are not low because of my statement about STO. Its just a pure fact that regardless of the quality of the game, it will sell based off its IP. How would I know how well its going to be. You act like ive already played it which I havent for the obvious reason. You also act like money isnt what makes a company. Blizzard clearly showed that it is about money. Thats all everything is about. As they say, money is what makes the world go round, and without money whats the point of making a game. Now i could go on argueing with you about this and that, but whats the point. You see it one way and I see it another way. I dont read posts and base my opinon of that, i play the game and make my decision there. If all i did was read reveiws and base my opinons off that, i would be like everyone. And im not like everyone else, i have my own opinons and own thoughts. Something you clearly cant see. GnH was a good game, it had its positives and negatives. All games do. Some people love WoW, some people hate WoW. But if I was to read a reveiw and base my assumption off someones opinon, then I would never know what a good game is. 

You can either hate it or like it, but as a poster of a thread you should also have a clue that people will not agree with you nor care what you have to say. Some people will come here to blast you, and some will agree with you. But in no way will everyone agree with you. That just doesnt happen, and if you think its going to. Wake up! So all in all, i dont need to read the reveiws, because I dont care. I know how the game was because I played it also. Its my opinon, deal with it. If you dont like it your more content to reply to my statements any way you chose, but remember I do bite back.   

  DixonHill

Novice Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 153

10/11/07 4:52:22 PM#28

To be honest, (thats really not a joke) its late here in germany. My english is not the best, and since i am very tired i have had problems to fully comprehend (i understand the words, but the meaning is not completly clear sometimes, due to my lack of the english language) your post. Many specialised terms and new words for me. And before i respond total (in my opinion lol) bullshit, i rather write nothing.

 

  mackdawg19

Tipster

Joined: 5/28/07
Posts: 868

"If men were created equal, then what happened to game developers?"

10/11/07 4:54:05 PM#29

Have you even read any of the dev journals? Im not here to mock you but it sounds like you havent. Also name 5 people on PE's staff that came from blizzard. If you can I will give you your props. If you cannot, then why talk about it like you know what your talking about.

The 2 main people of f the development team that produced GnH are as follows along with there previous company.

Steig Hedlund - Lead Designer for the diablo series.

Chris Mckibbin - Executive Producer from EA. (not 100% sure about his title but he was from EA

And tons of developers from titles like UO, Asherons Call and some other EA games. So were are these full stafers from blizzard. You must be thinking of games like Guildwars(arena.net), Hellgate:London, and Red 5 or Flag Studios(future mmo to come but has the co founder of Blizzard on there staff). Its not hard to find this info. There is google. Im suprised about how many people post on these boards just to raise there post count, and never really do there homework. 

Btw sorry for the double post. My apoligies. 

 

  User Deleted
10/11/07 4:57:04 PM#30

 

 

Bren,

Don't let them get to you. These supporters of PE that have appeared out of nowhere, are nothing more than STO.net operatives,  trying like crazy to prop up the very thing that gives their lives meaning, using their only tool, spin and irrational rants.

 

  Brenelael

Guide

Joined: 10/19/06
Posts: 3971

Pointing out the Obvious to the Oblivious since 2006

10/11/07 5:01:49 PM#31

Originally posted by DixonHill

To be honest, (thats really not a joke) its late here in germany. My english is not the best, and since i am very tired i have had problems to fully comprehend (i understand the words, but the meaning is not completly clear sometimes, due to my lack of the english language) your post. Many specialised terms and new words for me. And before i respond total (in my opinion lol) bullshit, i rather write nothing.

 

Ok, take your time Dix. I'm sorry but I'm pretty passionate when it comes to Star Trek as I can tell you are also. I'm a college graduate and the language I use when I get really into something like this does get a little thick at times so I can understand when someone that doesn't understand so well gets confused by it. Just remember that we are both Star Trek fans first and foremost so we are 2 sides of the same coin. Just because we disagree on this does not make us enemies.

 

Bren

while(horse==dead)
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beat();
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  DixonHill

Novice Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 153

10/11/07 5:05:46 PM#32
Originally posted by Keogh

 

 

Bren,

Don't let them get to you. These supporters of PE that have appeared out of nowhere, are nothing more than STO.net operatives,  trying like crazy to prop up the very thing that gives their lives meaning, using their only tool, spin and irrational rants.

 

Very funny and constructive. I do not even have a STO.net forum account.

edit @ Bren: /agreed

  Brenelael

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Joined: 10/19/06
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Pointing out the Obvious to the Oblivious since 2006

10/11/07 5:09:20 PM#33

Originally posted by Keogh

 

 

Bren,

Don't let them get to you. These supporters of PE that have appeared out of nowhere, are nothing more than STO.net operatives,  trying like crazy to prop up the very thing that gives their lives meaning, using their only tool, spin and irrational rants.

 

Well they aren't exactly getting to me the honest truth is I enjoy the debates they have brought here as this section has been a little stale and one sided since the "No PSIs" fiasco drove all the posters away. I wouldn't exactly go as far as label them as "STO.net operatives" either as I feel they are just people with a passion for Star Trek that equals our own but just have different views on the situation than we do. I can relate because I used to be just like them.....I supported PE and STO for a long time before I started to realize the potential damage they could do to an already badly wounded IP that I love so much. Don't hate them Keogh for we are all Star Trek fans no matter what our current views are on the topic at hand.

 

Bren

while(horse==dead)
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beat();
}

  User Deleted
10/11/07 5:14:03 PM#34

Originally posted by Brenelael

 

Originally posted by Keogh

 

 

Bren,

Don't let them get to you. These supporters of PE that have appeared out of nowhere, are nothing more than STO.net operatives,  trying like crazy to prop up the very thing that gives their lives meaning, using their only tool, spin and irrational rants.

 

Well they aren't exactly getting to me the honest truth is I enjoy the debates they have brought here as this section has been a little stale and one sided since the "No PSIs" fiasco drove all the posters away. I wouldn't exactly go as far as label them as "STO.net operatives" either as I feel they are just people with a passion for Star Trek that equals our own but just have different views on the situation than we do. I can relate because I used to be just like them.....I supported PE and STO for a long time before I started to realize the potential damage they could do to an already badly wounded IP that I love so much. Don't hate them Keogh for we are all Star Trek fans no matter what our current views are on the topic at hand.

 

 

Bren

You won't belive me, but I too supported PE and STO. That was a long time ago on their first official forum.

Yes, the forum was dead. They have made things interesting.

Well, don't let me interupt. On with the debate!

  TheOracle1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/26/07
Posts: 86

You Know I''m Right

 
OP  10/12/07 3:56:14 AM#35

Originally posted by mackdawg19

 In a sense it was all about the money. So to say PE is a bad company is purely false, it is actually a smart company. It saw a game for what its worth and knew it could make better money elsewere. Sounds pretty smart to me from any business sense.

GnH will be back in due time. Either when they find new investors, or when STO is out and making money. Even if STO fails after launch, it will sell tons of copies just by name alone. Either way I wish the people at PE the best, and im sure we will see them in many other games to come.

Thats the problem. PE is not driven by quality, only anticipated money. That is why they dropped G&H, a good business decision, simply because they knew it was not up to par. And that is why they are moving ahead with STO, because they feel the IP is very strong.

You seem to be OK with PE making money off the IP alone, and that is what separates you from most.

 

  DixonHill

Novice Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 153

10/12/07 4:28:30 AM#36

But when money is so important for them, and not quality, they could have released GnH anyways in its unfinished state.

You could see it this way, they want high quality, but accepted GnH isnt currently good enough. And they resign the more or less little money GnH would have brought them when they had released it.

  Brenelael

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Posts: 3971

Pointing out the Obvious to the Oblivious since 2006

10/12/07 6:49:20 AM#37

 

Originally posted by DixonHill

But when money is so important for them, and not quality, they could have released GnH anyways in its unfinished state.

You could see it this way, they want high quality, but accepted GnH isnt currently good enough. And they resign the more or less little money GnH would have brought them when they had released it.

Although I wouldn't argue that this is good that they did this I would however argue that the way they did it sucks totally. They basically did this to their beta testers and pre-order people.....

 

 

Everything is going great, the game is coming along fine.....

Everything is going great, the game is coming along fine.....

Everything is going great, the game is coming along fine.....

Everything is going great, the game is coming along fine.....

Everything is going great, the game needs some polish so we are pushing back the release a little.....

IT'S FREAKING VAPORWARE.....PISS OFF YA FREELOADERS!!

<Nothing>....

<Nothing>....

 

I mean really....I've been in some betas that closed but have never seen anything that showed a total disregard for the community that tops this. This shows just how much all those fans of G&H that have followed the game for years meant to PE. They meant zip, nada, zilch.......basically they thought nothing of ripping a game that had a devout following out from under the very people that supported them without any warning it was going to happen. This just reduced the already dwindling player base for STO by about another half. Not a smart business move at all. PE will have to prove themselves to a lot of people now before they would even consider looking at another one of their games.

 

Bren

while(horse==dead)
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beat();
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  User Deleted
10/12/07 7:30:50 AM#38

 

 

Looking at the information that has been made public, a plausible scenario for what lead to the current situation for PE would consist of the following:

  • A naive and overconfident management team
  • Extremely poor critical thinking skills that lead to mismanagement of resources
  • Investors, nervous over the SOE move, 2 rounds of layoffs, serious cash flow problems and under performing studio
  • The new investor looks at the assets and liabilities of PE and "instructs" the studio to cut overhead and kill the G&H project

Simply put, I get the sense that PE really felt that they were some how going to ship G&H, but the investors had other ideas. The investors did not want the bad launch of a mediocre game to negatively impact the chances for the Star Trek License.

As we witness this story develop, one is left wondering if PE will exist at all by the end of 2007.

  TheOracle1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/26/07
Posts: 86

You Know I''m Right

 
OP  10/12/07 7:38:53 AM#39

Bren

.basically they thought nothing of ripping a game that had a devout following out from under the very people that supported them without any warning it was going to happen.


They already did the same thing with STO. It is ultimately a business, but I think PE is making a HUGE mistake with the Star Trek IP. They underestimate the protest that will greet them if they try to put out a inferior product.

PE is not the right company for STO. And I baffled that there still is a few that keep supporting PE and giving them the benefit of the doubt.

PE has PROVEN they are liars, and they have DEMONSTRATED their developing sucks.

 

  GrumpyMel

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/07
Posts: 30

10/12/07 9:55:07 AM#40

I reiterate, likely there was no "decision" from PE to not ship G&H, it is very likely that they simply ran out of money and COULD NOT (rather then made a choice not to) move it to release. Don't make the assumption that whatever investers they had blanketly invested in PE as a company. It is not at all unusual that investors will invest in a particular project...rather then a company. In those cases, there are contractual stipulations on how the funds invested can be spent.... and return on investment is based off profits of that specific company.

It could be the case that PE simply ran completely out of money for G&H and were unable to come up with the funds to move it to Launch (i.e. pay hosting fee's for servers, pay staff, pay production costs of boxed games) even in an incomplete state. You see that sort of thing occasionaly in companies with very bad management...... company executives are absolutely certain that they'll secure next round of Angel/VC funding.... they spend every last dime they have on project without reserving enough emergency funds to release the project even in an unfinished state.... Angel/VC funding keeps getting delayed and delayed as company spends itself dry.... finally the "big day" arrives when the Angel/VC is supposed to be writing the company a check... the executives are all primed with thier champagne bottles ready to be uncorked... and instead the VC/Angel anounces that they will be withdrawing funding..... company is left without enough money in the bank to print pink slips for the employees. I've seen this sort of thing before. Don't assume that PE could have simply shifted funds from STO to have finnished off G&H and made a business decision not to..... They might well be existing right now on funding entirely provided by investors of the STO project.... along with contractual obligations that such money is actualy spent on STO...and not other projects.

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