And I am going to go one step further and say there are less balance issues in EVE Online, Asheron's Call and UO then in WoW.

WoW is continually adjusting class balance even today.

UO, Eve, and AC are not the type of skill systems I am talking about.  You're talking about an actual player skill reliant system over a system that meshes typical MMORPG ability/spell mechanics with a tiered profession tree.

The skill trees that SWG used are not similar to the systems really used in any of those.  Eve is the only one that really has a case, and the only reason it works in that is because the game is focused more towards your ship and cash rather than the skills you have.  There is dependence on skills to some extent, but most of the "required" skills to get the most out of the game don't require massive time sinks.   And it's also balanced out by the fact that you don't actively gain skills through XP, it's gathered over time spent with the game.
The issues arise when you implement limits like there were in SWG, rather than using something like skill decay or not having any limits at all.

Personally I would much rather have an open skill system then the rigid ;pre NGE SWG one.

There are some that mix class with a skill system, like Rappelz.

But you are correct there are not any skill based systems at present in any of the new games.

I would tend to disagree with the statement that they are inherently harder to balance, DAoC had a rigid class system and they never balanced it ever.

Originally posted by WharfRat

a open skill system

complex , fun and involved crafting system

unique  resource system

if only a game that had that was around

 

FU   SOE

 

and FU EA

Originally posted by Ohaan

Originally posted by WharfRat

a open skill system

complex , fun and involved crafting system

unique  resource system

if only a game that had that was around

 

FU   SOE

 

and FU EA

Yes SWG was hard as fuck to balance. It's obvious with the amount of nerfs handed out when compared to the amount of new content. However once Jedi's started appearing on the servers, everything went to shit. As stated in a previous post, you can't have an alpha class! If anything this is the ONLY thing SOE "fixed" to keep jedi they had to make them just another class. However if they would have just kept it as it was in the beginning with no hints on how to unlock with perma-death. Everything would have been fine and dandy. Yeah I said dandy, what of it?

P.S. FU Smed

I followed SWG pretty closely before release and I always thought the jedi thing was a bad idea.  If you're gonna set the game during the classic era YOU DONT ALLOW JEDI PCs.  If you want to have jedi PCs (since half the player base want to play jedi) you chose a different timeline.  They couldve gone WAY back in SW history and they wouldve had MUCH more freedom (assuming LA wouldve allowed it). 

Back to the topic of skill systems.  Honestly, I still feel like skill based system are almost completely superior to class/level based.  Really, I have a hard time believing that a skill based system cant be balanced.

i do wish a company would listen.Take StarGate for example that had so much promise from what i read and and SS i saw then they go with the class system and that really turned me off even before i heard their plans for crafting / resources.

It comes down to us. When we stop settling for what they give us and paying them for it then maybe they will listen.

yeah, only way to have an "Alpha-class" like the Jedi were was to make them perma-death and extremely hard to play/survive

you'd never lose your Force Sensitive slot once you unlocked it, but you could lose your Jedi if you weren't very, very careful.

it actually made sense in the time line that they were using

very few Jedi, and no one knew who they were, because if they did, everyone would be after the bounty on their head.

Oh how I miss the old SWG skill system...

Originally posted by Tatum

 Really, I have a hard time believing that a skill based system cant be balanced.

Agreed.

First of all I think some of the 'balance' issue regarding skill systems is just overblown. There will always be some degree of imbalance in MMOs because of character differences, be they skills or classes. We don't see as much talk on the subject in level based games because they are usually much more PvE oriented whereas skill system tend to incorporate more PvP where balance issues are more, shall we say, personal. One counter argument is that in skill based systems one can usually change skills as prefered. Yes this tends to encourage cookie cutter skill sets but at least the player has an alternative to being stuck with a gimped class.

Secondly I think that developers never really prioritized balancing nor approached in a methodical manner. In early UO I got the impression that many mechanics were thrown in just for the idea (like fire based spells doing increased damage to metal armored players). Proper beta testing would have identified that as a major imbalance. Of course they learned about after release and then the remedy was perceived as a huge nerf.

With proper testing the major imbalances can be avoided and then the minor ones can be 'tweaked' on the fly. Possibly without even revealing it to the player base (ie reducing one skill's damage output by 2.5% and increasing another's by the same amount). Unfortunately most studios have thrown the baby out with the bath water when it comes to skill based MMOs.

 EDIT - Oh yeah, IMO ditch alpha classes. Why make it more complicated than it has to be?

Originally posted by zOMGREI

Just as a side note; the reason you don't really see a whole lot of open skill tree/profession systems is because they're typically a nightmare to balance and make every tree worthwhile, but not overpowered.  It's one of those things that we're really not going to see much of again, simply because of the amount of development time usually required to get this type of system in relatively acceptable balance.

class/level based systems have that same problem. see city of heroes.

next, this notion of every tree being balanced is weird too bad I cant play SWG pre-cu. This post makes no sense game developers skip out on Skill based systems because they're afraid of newbies gimping themselves. See Cryptic's reason for switching last minute. Its in their prelaunch E3 vid on their site. They went class based because they wanted to make the game easier for noobs

Originally posted by zOMGREI

UO, Eve, and AC are not the type of skill systems I am talking about.  You're talking about an actual player skill reliant system over a system that meshes typical MMORPG ability/spell mechanics with a tiered profession tree.

The skill trees that SWG used are not similar to the systems really used in any of those.  Eve is the only one that really has a case, and the only reason it works in that is because the game is focused more towards your ship and cash rather than the skills you have.  There is dependence on skills to some extent, but most of the "required" skills to get the most out of the game don't require massive time sinks.   And it's also balanced out by the fact that you don't actively gain skills through XP, it's gathered over time spent with the game.
The issues arise when you implement limits like there were in SWG, rather than using something like skill decay or not having any limits at all.

Ah this was not clear in your earlier posts. You can still put limits on it and come out fine though but just realize if you apply limits then you are producing player generated Classes (templates) like Guild Wars / Fury

Alpha classes are a TERRABLE idea unless the Devs both make them VERY hard to get and put a population cap on the number of charecters with this class on server.

This way it doesant swamp every other class.

I almost brought SWG but then i heard of this NGE thing so i guess i never got to experience this game in its hayday.

Unfortunatly it just doesn't happen anymore.  UO and SWG were great skill based games at one point, but as you can see, even with those two power house of games the influence/success of WoW has ruined many MMOs. 

I agree with most of the posters here that the skill based system is superior and is less of a time sink. I look forward to seeing something like this in Darkfall when it releases. I think Alpha Classes like Jedi in SWG are ok if done like they did the original Jedi in SWG. Perma-death but keeping the force slot is perfect imo, especially if you dont know how to open the force slot. Sure.. everyone will figure it out eventually but with perma death it makes it all the more interesting. I really just have no interest in playing games with large time sinks (which most level based games contain) and I hope to see some more skill based type systems in the future. I think most level based games will  get the title of wow clone mainly because of the HUD and leveling system. It would be pretty challenging to stray away from a system that works so well in that environment, and I think it will take a skill based game to break away from the wow clone trend.

There are more positive news about Darkfall. If the game delivers what they have promised we will see if the time of sandboxgames is over.  I personally feel that there is a huge demand for game like darkfall.

http://www.darkfallonline.com/

The features there ah :) so nice

Good day all