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  Perilous1

Novice Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 52

 
OP  10/08/07 2:48:40 PM#21

Originally posted by Gu1lty

You can solo, ok so MAYBE you need your guildies to help get a raid drop or help farm mats but other then that you dont absolutly need anyone. Your last line about how it "leeches much of the enjoyment from the game" must be based on bad experiances or poor planning. If you are one of those trolls that HAS to have every piece of tier 3 then sure you need help from others. I guess some folks need everything handed to them and w/o someome to do so they get turned off quickly.

I am not referring to level 60+ gear, I thought that was fairly clear as all my comments were about "leveling up". Its not hard to understand that if mobs your level drop gear seven levels below yours then you either need to group to fight much higher level mobs to get drops your level.. Or shop the Auction House whenever you want to upgrade.

As you level your current gear becomes less effective and you are no longer able to beat mobs your level, further herding you into groups for much needed support. This shouldn't even be argued, if you played World of Warcraft it has most certainly happened to you. I am starting to get the impression that if you're actually debating this simple fact that you either buy online gold to support yourself, or you take constant handouts from friends or Guildies and so have no idea how leveling up solo is not game-friendly.

  chryses

Novice Member

Joined: 5/29/07
Posts: 1438

10/08/07 2:58:42 PM#22

Originally posted by Yimmarans

This is not a developing trend, its been that way for a lllooonnnggg time.  It went easy-to-level with the advent of "Easy Gaming" generation (WoW and EQII specifically).  Vanguard tried to bring back the group-based content, and had a crushing defeat (not sure if it was the content, quality, or performance).

 

In my not-so humble opinion, they need a game that has a fair enough split that, in the event I cannot find a group, I can solo.  I think all class quests should be solo, unless they cross storylines with specific classes (Paladin and Cleric can group for a part), and they should follow you through the entire game.  Then they should have their level based group quests that start and end like short stories.


Here is the reason why I left Vanguard.  I prefer to go solo on most things in an mmo but like the option to team up when I feel like it.  In Vanguard I could pretty much solo to about 35ish.  Thereafter it was either grind out random spawns or find a group then I found another problem.  I couldn't find a group!!!

It is very dangerous for a company to 'force' players to group up for several reasons.

* If I can not level without a group and can't find one....I don't play.

* Its frustrating walking around for hours and screaming in chat for anyone who is (A) in the area (B) wants to do that dungeon (C) within the same level bracket (D) Then know's how to play in a group properly!

How many times have you found yourself with a group of 3 people and need one more and 30 minutes later someone drops out to join another group, another goes for dinner...bah!!  Its infuriating!

Some games that I found to be fine without a group were, Neocrom (when I got bored I tend to sniper groups who were doing dungeons), EVE, Jumpgate, Earth & Beyond.  Sure there were parts you need a group but hey it didn't force you to sit there and scream like a jerk for hours.  LFG! Level 35 Sorceror....God I hated doing that.

How about a 2 part dungeon process.. There is a solo part that is say 50% of the dungeon but has a boss that a solo player could kill.  However to progress you probably need help... EVE has something similar with hives.  I have found a hive before and cleared it out.  It gave me a key to another huge hive and I just didn't go as I knew I needed a group.  works well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18804

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/08/07 3:05:17 PM#23

Originally posted by Perilous1

 

Originally posted by Gu1lty

You can solo, ok so MAYBE you need your guildies to help get a raid drop or help farm mats but other then that you dont absolutly need anyone. Your last line about how it "leeches much of the enjoyment from the game" must be based on bad experiances or poor planning. If you are one of those trolls that HAS to have every piece of tier 3 then sure you need help from others. I guess some folks need everything handed to them and w/o someome to do so they get turned off quickly.

 

I am not referring to level 60+ gear, I thought that was fairly clear as all my comments were about "leveling up". Its not hard to understand that if mobs your level drop gear seven levels below yours then you either need to group to fight much higher level mobs to get drops your level.. Or shop the Auction House whenever you want to upgrade.

As you level your current gear becomes less effective and you are no longer able to beat mobs your level, further herding you into groups for much needed support. This shouldn't even be argued, if you played World of Warcraft it has most certainly happened to you. I am starting to get the impression that if you're actually debating this simple fact that you either buy online gold to support yourself, or you take constant handouts from friends or Guildies and so have no idea how leveling up solo is not game-friendly.

OP, you must have played a different WOW than I did... I solo'd 5 characters to level 60....rarely grouping except in key instances like Uldamen and what not...and not because i cared about the gear.... only to get the quests done....

No matter what the class, I could always solo mobs 3-4 levels above me, (not elites of course) and as for gear...you gather up  all those lower level drop and sell them on the AH.,.and then buy the greens/blues you need off the AH to level further.

But WOW wasn't the original issue right? You are claiming that upcoming games require more grouping.  Haven't played any of the upcoming betas so no clue what they bring, but a bit more grouping would be welcome, as long as they don't all follow the path LotRO (and even WOW) chose at the upper levels/endgame and make it all forced grouping....

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Ohaan

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/06
Posts: 559

Be like water

10/08/07 3:45:16 PM#24

Originally posted by Perilous1

Since some of you can't drop the World of Warcraft angle and continue to point out that it is allegedly solo-friendly.. Allow me to show you how it isn't:

Mobs in World of Warcraft drop weapons and armor that are typically seven levels below the mob level itself. So, in order to get a drop at your level you pretty much have no choice but to group up. Now, if you're farming for lesser items then it's not an issue. But if you want decent experience and drops to upgrade your gear then you are herded into having to group.

Moving on.. If you want to craft in World of Warcraft as well? Holy crap, you had not only better group often but also join a Guild and milk the use of it's members as much as possible. Crafting beyond skill 200 in WoW becomes insanely expensive.

Want a mount? Then you need to squirrel away 90+ gold by level 40 (unless you're a Warlock or Paladin). That is unlikely to happen if you're buying upgrades to your equipment from the Auction House along the way. So, you're back to needing drops for your level, hence it's required grouping.

Don't kid yourself in thinking that World of Warcraft is solo-friendly unless you enjoy following an extremely narrow advancement path that leeches much of the enjoyment from the game.

Well your definition of solo/group friendly is different than mine.

Maintaining gear that is equal in level to your character is not a prerequisite for advancement. Nor is experience gain rate all that different: kill quests go faster in a group, item gathering quests take longer. Grouping tends to put you at the front half of the character advancement wave whereas soloing tends to put you in back half. One may like to have better gear sooner but wanting and needing are different.

Your crafting and mount acquisition don't hold water for me either. I hit 300 crafting on my own and bought my own mounts (lvl 40 and lvl 60 epic). Sure you can get there faster if people give you money but there are no barriers to solo farming for the money.

To be honest, if WoW were made more solo friendly as per your examples, I think it would be just plain retarded. Not saying that it would be so for others - I just don't see a purpose to MMOs if there is no reason for player interaction at all.

 

 

 

  Huntn

Novice Member

Joined: 1/01/06
Posts: 284

10/08/07 3:47:03 PM#25


Originally posted by Perilous1

Originally posted by Gu1lty

You can solo, ok so MAYBE you need your guildies to help get a raid drop or help farm mats but other then that you dont absolutly need anyone. Your last line about how it "leeches much of the enjoyment from the game" must be based on bad experiances or poor planning. If you are one of those trolls that HAS to have every piece of tier 3 then sure you need help from others. I guess some folks need everything handed to them and w/o someome to do so they get turned off quickly.



I am not referring to level 60+ gear, I thought that was fairly clear as all my comments were about "leveling up". Its not hard to understand that if mobs your level drop gear seven levels below yours then you either need to group to fight much higher level mobs to get drops your level.. Or shop the Auction House whenever you want to upgrade.
As you level your current gear becomes less effective and you are no longer able to beat mobs your level, further herding you into groups for much needed support. This shouldn't even be argued, if you played World of Warcraft it has most certainly happened to you. I am starting to get the impression that if you're actually debating this simple fact that you either buy online gold to support yourself, or you take constant handouts from friends or Guildies and so have no idea how leveling up solo is not game-friendly.

I'd love to do solo as much as you but if all you do is solo, it is all most defeating the purpose of participating in a MMO. Might be better to do RPGs... WoW seems to be one of the more solo friendly MMOs out there. I think developers for a MMO are much more worried about group dynamics than solo content. Not saying that's good, just a fact of MMO development.

-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2

  User Deleted
10/08/07 3:51:17 PM#26

 


Originally posted by Perilous1

 

Just wondering how others feel about the trend in MMO's that require you to group with others to advance your character.



I think a key element to this question is define what advancement you're talking about, and where it caps out. With advancement I mean levels, character skills and equipment.

I think a player putting in 14 hours per week should be able to find solo content for about 3-6 months in any MMOG, not counting replayability through making new characters. Demanding anything more than that is in my opinion expecting too much from developers who must create everything manually - even worse if people at the same time complain about yet another kill X, gather Y quest.

 

Group play should advance you through the solo content faster, and make you able to defeat some additional content for better rewards along the way - rewards that a solo player can not get until he has out-levelled it quite a bit.

Additionally, when you've capped out on the solo play advancement possibilities, there should still be plenty of room for advancing your character through group play - maybe even raid play. And a solo player should never be able to do this stuff, again due to content production. If you make a solo player able to complete the highest raid content, it'll either be an insanely slow grind (don't we love grinding?) or the group players will have competed all the devs can produce too fats and moved on.

These games are inherently based on group effort and social interaction, and through social play comes friends, guilds and alliances. These keep veteran players in the game longer, which you need for the lasting community (You'll notice this mainly when your game is entering its late years); but not for the mass money - the money purse is filled by those soloers who never even get to the solo cap.

The above should give enjoyment for most Achiever players. The non-Socialiser Achievers can push the limit for advancing far and/or fast as soloers. The Socialiser Achievers can push it to the very end together with their allies. And the non-Socialiser Achiever who claims he has the right to get the same as a Socialiser Achiever can try to remember he was given the same deal upon signing up for the game as the others, but chose to not take full advantage of the possibilities of the game. ;)

Personally, I haven't seen the trend, but welcome any movement to the above. No (or little) reward from grouping, or forced grouping to be able to advance beyond what you can do solo in a few months, are both equally huge mistakes, in my opinion.

  Perilous1

Novice Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 52

 
OP  10/08/07 4:12:52 PM#27

I can understand the disposition of asking, "Why play an MMO if you're prefer to solo?"

The answer is that I thrive on competition. Its my primary reason for playing anything online. There is no genuine competition to be gained by grouping with others. Solo however, I can measure myself against others, both soloists and groupers. Even when I PvP I prefer to seek out a lone opponent and go one-on-one with them, strategically of course. I want to take out a critical Healer or Tank that will hurt the opposing team and give my team an advantage.

I understand that you can solo to 60 in World of Warcraft but it's not an enjoyable experience for me, or for many others that I've talked with. You are often forced to grind mobs, sometimes for several levels before you can get to a new series of solo'able quests. I for one hate grinding, and I can't imagine anyone other than a power-leveler consumed with the race to level 60 that might actually enjoy it. Such players are less concerned with keeping their equipment up to date because they are often grinding mobs slightly below their level in order to minimize their downtime between fights.

As I've already stated, WoW can be solo'd if you follow a narrow and rather sterile path to level 60 without many of the side-features that make it such a popular game.

  Fikroc

Novice Member

Joined: 8/27/07
Posts: 167

10/08/07 4:18:08 PM#28

So really it should be soloable gameply with grouping rewards. Its able to solo to max but much more beneficial if you group. Problem with WoW's grouping outside of raids was first I had to make sure we were on the same quest and then collect ones took double the time, half the xp from the mob and I quickly outgrew the level range of quests and only had red ones left. So I could group and fall behind my available quests and be forced to grind or start the inevitable grind early and catch up to my quest lines. DAoC still did it best for me. I could solo even or slightly lower mobs with minimal downtime if any, or could group and get a group xp bonus and blast through mobs. Quests were almost non existant though. Either way, it was nice.

  zaxxon23

Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/06
Posts: 1285

10/08/07 5:00:00 PM#29

It's pretty simple for me.  If grouping, such as raids in wow, is required for character/gear advancement, I simply won't play the MMO.  If, however, grouping and raids are included, but yet the solo player can get the same gear (albeit a much lower drop rate), then I'll play and will enjoy a fulfilling game experience.  I'll be able to solo when I want to, and group when I want to.

Like the OP, I'm not against grouping.  I like to do small groups, medium groups, and even raids.  But the caveat is I like to group WHEN I WANT TO.  Not because the dev forces me to.  I'm not going to be so arrogant as to say that I know I'm in the majority and that most people want this system.  However, I know that I'm far from alone in this method of playstyle.

There seems to be quite the constant theme in threads such as these.  Many players do not like forced group content.  It would be nice if devs recognized this and started developing games for this segment of the market.

  Fikroc

Novice Member

Joined: 8/27/07
Posts: 167

10/08/07 5:09:49 PM#30

Or change how grouping works all together. A form of  "autogroup" in a radius of an event. Or tricking solo players into fighting for a common goal of the game... like winning a war.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God I hope WAR doesn't suck.

  Asamof

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/19/04
Posts: 685

10/08/07 5:19:25 PM#31

For me it really depends on what game. For WoW I usually detest grouping. For CoH/V, I wont play it unless I have a group.

  Huntn

Novice Member

Joined: 1/01/06
Posts: 284

10/08/07 5:32:09 PM#32


Originally posted by Perilous1

As I've already stated, WoW can be solo'd if you follow a narrow and rather sterile path to level 60 without many of the side-features that make it such a popular game.

But it can be mostly solo'd. Is there another MMO out there with more opportunities to solo? I'm curious.

-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2

  Danhilderman

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/05
Posts: 66

10/08/07 5:49:08 PM#33

AC1 allowed you to solo to level 126 (and now level 275).  It takes longer, but it isn't any different in terms of difficulty.

The problem is that EQ based mmo's (including WoW) use a flawed (in my opinion, of course) method of advancement and combat. 

  Huntn

Novice Member

Joined: 1/01/06
Posts: 284

10/08/07 6:41:59 PM#34


Originally posted by Danhilderman
AC1 allowed you to solo to level 126 (and now level 275). It takes longer, but it isn't any different in terms of difficulty.
The problem is that EQ based mmo's (including WoW) use a flawed (in my opinion, of course) method of advancement and combat.

Asheron's Call? Dated but good if you don't mind throwing out a quick description... Thanks!

-----------------------
Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
Current MMO:
Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2

  Arawon

Novice Member

Joined: 6/13/04
Posts: 1108

10/08/07 6:46:21 PM#35

I solo 95% of my gameplay. If the game is not solo friendly, I won't play.

  Ohaan

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/06
Posts: 559

Be like water

10/08/07 6:56:51 PM#36

Originally posted by Arawon

I solo 95% of my gameplay. If the game is not solo friendly, I won't play.

Then why play MMOs?

No seriously. What draws you to MMO's if you are that much of a solo player?

- Is it that MMO's are generally larger in scope and less directional than single player RPGs?

- Is 5% of the time that you do group is enjoyable enough to pay a monthly fee?

- Or is it just having other real players around that maybe makes the environment seem more alive?

Me wants to know

  Perilous1

Novice Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 52

 
OP  10/08/07 7:01:56 PM#37
Originally posted by Ohaan

 

Originally posted by Arawon

I solo 95% of my gameplay. If the game is not solo friendly, I won't play.

Then why play MMOs?

 

No seriously. What draws you to MMO's if you are that much of a solo player?

- Is it that MMO's are generally larger in scope and less directional than single player RPGs?

- Is 5% of the time that you do group is enjoyable enough to pay a monthly fee?

- Or is it just having other real players around that maybe makes the environment seem more alive?

Me wants to know


I for one have already answered this very question. For the competition both in progress and in PvP. The absolute bottom line of this thread is just because you play with others in this game or any game, you shouldn't have to group with them if you prefer not to.

  Ohaan

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/06
Posts: 559

Be like water

10/08/07 7:39:25 PM#38

 

Originally posted by Perilous1
Originally posted by Ohaan 
Originally posted by Arawon

I solo 95% of my gameplay. If the game is not solo friendly, I won't play.

Then why play MMOs?

 No seriously. What draws you to MMO's if you are that much of a solo player?

- Is it that MMO's are generally larger in scope and less directional than single player RPGs?

- Is 5% of the time that you do group is enjoyable enough to pay a monthly fee?

- Or is it just having other real players around that maybe makes the environment seem more alive?

Me wants to know


I for one have already answered this very question. For the competition both in progress and in PvP. 

Is your name Arawon? 

 

Yes I saw your reply. Maybe I wanted someone else's perspective.

Ok, you like to be the leader in the 'keep up with the Jones' game. The one who has the most disposable time... Ok fair enough, weird, but fair enough.

As for the PvP, you want a solo MMO but you want it to only have one-on-one PvP? Like duelling or deathmatch battlegrounds?

Originally posted by Perilous1

The absolute bottom line of this thread is just because you play with others in this game or any game, you shouldn't have to group with them if you prefer not to.

The only thing absolute about that statement is that it is completely self-centered. You expect that devs should build every game to suit YOUR play style? Very considerate of you. The amount of grouping/teamwork that is required/encouraged in an MMO will also be dependent on its theme (ie. raid centric, PvP centric, etc.) So for MMO studios to meet your demands they would have to exclude alternate theme models.

A more considerate request would be for the market to diversify to cater to different player types (PvE, PvP, solo, group, etc.).

  Perilous1

Novice Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 52

 
OP  10/08/07 7:58:36 PM#39

 

Originally posted by Ohaan

 

Originally posted by Perilous1


I for one have already answered this very question. For the competition both in progress and in PvP. 

Is your name Arawon? 

 

Yes I saw your reply. Maybe I wanted someone else's perspective.

Ok, you like to be the leader in the 'keep up with the Jones' game. The one who has the most disposable time... Ok fair enough, weird, but fair enough.

As for the PvP, you want a solo MMO but you want it to only have one-on-one PvP? Like duelling or deathmatch battlegrounds?

Originally posted by Perilous1

The absolute bottom line of this thread is just because you play with others in this game or any game, you shouldn't have to group with them if you prefer not to.

The only thing absolute about that statement is that it is completely self-centered. You expect that devs should build every game to suit YOUR play style? Very considerate of you. The amount of grouping/teamwork that is required/encouraged in an MMO will also be dependent on its theme (ie. raid centric, PvP centric, etc.) So for MMO studios to meet your demands they would have to exclude alternate theme models.

A more considerate request would be for the market to diversify to cater to different player types (PvE, PvP, solo, group, etc.).

LOL! This is hands down the most amusing response yet. Let me get this straight.. You get to question why someone that plays an online game might be opposed to grouping with other players, whilst you come to a public forum, jump into a public discussion and then get bent out of shape because you wanted a private correspondence with one person in the thread? Rather hypocritical, wouldn't you say?

 

This thread was about various thoughts on this trend that is occuring. I am not requesting anything from Devs nor expecting Devs to alter their games based on my preferences. This thread is not about the Devs at all, it's about our opinions about the future of online gaming. Are you questioning our right to give opinions on that topic?

In all honesty, your post smacks of quite a bit of ignorance about this thread. I didn't exclude any reply that Arawon might want to make to your question, but as I started this thread I like to make sure it stays on track. It seems clear you were just looking for an excuse to lash out as your comments are derogatory and dismissive of others opinions.

  Ohaan

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/06
Posts: 559

Be like water

10/08/07 8:25:47 PM#40
Originally posted by Perilous1

 It seems clear you were just looking for an excuse to lash out as your comments are derogatory and dismissive of others opinions.

Nope. I took your previous reply as a very snarky 'me! me! me!' response to my asking Arawon for his/her perspective. To boot you added that you declared that no MMO should require grouping, in a tone that was dismissive of others' opinions. If you are going to dish it be prepared to take it. 'nuff said.

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