As some of you know, I enjoy PvP action a lot more than PvE. But what makes RPGs interesting is the ability to progress your character as time passes. That's why on my project I was thinking of a way to make characters advance. It would be completely fair to unlock all skills and abilities for all players since the game is based more on player skill than character skill, but then, I would have to create tutorials and newbies' areas, to help new players understand the game. I don't like this idea, so instead I looked outside (I mean at other games) and I saw that most offer a linear progression, the game being skill-based or level-based.

I pretty much hate linear progression, so I have come up with an idea burrowed from Tactics Ogre. In this game, for your character to be able to change class, it needs to meet some requirements. For example you have to unlock the "sword and book" insigna to evolve to the warlock class. This insigna is unlocked for being a melee fighter as well as a magic user. Nothing amazing really, but this is precisely the point. Character advancement fits the way you are currently playing the game. Oblivion has pretty much the same approach, even though I think they should have removed classes entirely from the game.

Basically, my idea is to get the player straight into the action, and when some events are triggered he unlocks new abilities. For example a character will learn the skill dodge by successfully dodging 3 attacks in a row. A character will learn riposte by successfully parrying an attack and re-attack afterwards, etc... I will expend this idea to magic users as well. With a system like this, I don't need levels, or templates or skill trees, I have just to make sure that all skills are balanced and that the more powerful ones have more complex requirements. This is also more rewarding for a player to tell you about his final thurst, skill that he has really learned in game, instead of just unlocking it on the way to the next level.

Although this idea is mainly thought for PvP play. It can also be used for PvE, but obviously not all of games. This concept can also be adapted to quests. For example I remember the hunter epic quest in WoW as being one of the best quest in all games so far for me. Why ? Because this quest is moderately long and challenging, it actually helps you learning how to play your class. And knowing those skills at level 60 is really mandatory (at least for PvP). There was 4 encounters if I remember well, and for each encounter you have to use a specific strategy based around your class strengths and weaknesses. The reward of the quest is now much more valuable for the player because he knows that he deserves it, pretty much like when you get your exams.

This continuous apprentissage is what defines fun for me. When you think of it, once you have nothing more to discover in a game, it is pretty much over. That's exactly where I have a problem with this design. With internet people will inevitably figure out how to unlock abilities and what are the requirements. They will start to play the game in order to unlock these abilities and all the surprise is gone. There is not much I can do about this but if you have an idea, you're welcome. How can we make sure that a character's advancement is not influenced by metagaming ?

i really like your idea, and it can be used in many applications, more then just skills, hidden locations, hidden quests, items that cant be dropped until unlocks have well been unlocked.

as to your question of metagaming. some ideas comes to my mind...

dont let the player know what he did to unlock it, this idea would force players to recall what had happend in battle to figure it out. if and when they figure it all out, it would be more like training a fellow player 'i did X  Y times to get it unlocked' then just telling him do X Y times. anouther good point to this idea is you dont have to make Y a set number.  not just 3 dodges give you a passive dodge, but maybe 3-6, giving more chance to unlock it. hendering metagaming more.  "well i did X only 3 times in a row, but i know someone that had to do X 6 times so i have no idea what you need to do."

the deed system from LOTRo. let the players know what they have to do after they have unlocked events or a %. i really liked this about LOTR.

one hard point in this for you is giving the player an iillusion of knowing what they have to do. the average player wont want to grind unless they have an idea. so maybe from a trianer quests are givin to offer hints of what they have to do, giving the player an idea, but forcing them to solve the problem themselves.

i wish you best of luck, it will be a hard feature to add to a game. but when completed. icing on a cake

That is possibly one of the best ideas i have heard to mask a grind yet! congrats!! I saw something similar in an xbox game called Advent Rising ( written by Orson Scott Card) where the more you used a weapon, not only the better you got at it, but it unlocked new uses of that weapon. its been applied in a lot of other single player games as well. masking the metagame though? ive been thinking about that my self lately as well, though Im no game developer, I am just working on a game design of my own as a hobby.

Anyways, the best way i could see to keep the metagame out (or delay it as long as possible, inevitably someone will figure it out and board strats all over the net) would be to make many paths to the same goal for each "skill". but id recomend making all the paths take the same amount of effort/time. so they might practice their sword skills with their friends, dueling or what not, or possibly go hack out in the open. but they could also raise their skill by crafting blades and gaining understanding on how a weapon functions. or possibly they could do enough tasks for an evil necromancer to where he would bind the spirit of an old warrior to the toon, granting him the knowledge needed to raise that skill. 

But like i said, dont have one path be more powerfull or faster than the other, because obviously gamers that figured it out would only use one path. this would help diminish metagame (probably not erase it entirely, practically impossible to do in a video game, when its all based on numbers, in preconstructed world, not like the world created by a GM in a pen and paper game.) and it would let the player feel like he has choice, and had some real desicion on the evolution of his character.

Of course this hypothetical system would take lots and lots of time to develop. but hopefully you find what works for you.

Even if players do know what it takes to unlock a skill, that doesn't mean it would be easy.  It could start off easy, but,

You could take the approach of just making the requirements to gain new skills harder. For example:

To learn the spin-dodge skill you have to dodge 10 consecutive attacks, getting hit or waiting too long in between dodges would cancel your progress and you have to start the dodge chain again.

Also, you could add a limit to how many skills they could have at one time, so to gain another skill (while at max) they have to forget one, if they want their old skill back they have to re unlock it in exchange for another skill.  This lets players continue to unlock and reunlock skills to reach their ideal build.

Like said above, avoid having skills unlocked via quests and allow for more variety, that makes everyone do the same thing, I think this idea would be more fun if handled like Xbox 360 achievements, have the requirements to unlock a specific skill and let the players try to unlock it whenever and wherever they choose.

Essentually make skill unlocking based on quality of play rather than quantity.

And if I forget to mention, I really like the idea of horizontal progression.

i totally agree with the unlocking skills aspect. I also think that each skill should be unique and have no prerequisites, and that every player should have the same potential access to all the skills in the game.

the main difference being that you would be limited to how many skills you can equip at any one time. It works great for spells, but its not so good for melee type abilities.

Hi,

Your idea seems interesting, but I seem to miss the point in it.

You wrote (as an example) that if a player dodged three times he would receive the dodge skill. What would that skill be for? Wasn't the player already able to dodge before getting that skill?

If the game is about player skill and not about character skill and since skills (unless I misunderstood) don't stop players from doing something like dodging, what are they for?

Still, unlocking skills based on the players actions and not based on leveling is very interesting and I think it is a subject that should be thought about seriously. It definitly called my attention. :)

Sorry if I misunderstood anything.

Best wishes,

hideway

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Originally posted by hideway
Hi,

Your idea seems interesting, but I seem to miss the point in it.
You wrote (as an example) that if a player dodged three times he would receive the dodge skill. What would that skill be for? Wasn't the player already able to dodge before getting that skill?
If the game is about player skill and not about character skill and since skills (unless I misunderstood) don't stop players from doing something like dodging, what are they for?

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I'm not sure if this is what he meant, but if the success of a skill check is combination of character and player skill, it would go like this: You begin as a completely newbie as a player and as a character. As you play, your skills as a player increase (for example you learn to time your dodges better) and eventually you get those three successes in a row and get a skill increase. Now, you are able to dodge better, not because your skill as a player is better than it was just before skill-raise (of course it might also be), but because now the calculations "favor" you bit more because of that one skill point your character got.

I think its a bad idea !

Unless you think players are SO dumb that they never noticed other players using the dodge skill and learning from that.

The skill increase idea is way old, done very well in UO. Its the best idea out there by far though, except for the grinding aspect of it.

We need to get away from repetition and over to using our brains more.

I think you can get the idea to work well....

To stop the "metagaming" why not have the player not get the skill until 5 minutes after they unlocked it? That way it would be hard for anyone to remember the exact event trigger.... You could unlock it on the server side but have client side run the timer... no need to give the server extra work...

Of course theoretically someone could hack it so that  there isn't a timer but someone getting a skill 5 minutes early wouldn't be game breaking at all.

Well, one of the oldest methods of advancing a skill that defeats metagaming is random advancement. You simply use the skill over and over and you'll randomly get better at it. This method was horrible in its execution.

My suggestion is a counter which increases the random chance you'll get a skill. If you whack something with your beatstick 700 times, you have a 5% chance of learning the Advanced Whacking skill on the next whack. After 300 more whacks, if you don't have that skill, the chance of learning it rises to 10% per whack. Obviously you'd want to use some kind of formula for it, as well as minimum counter requirements to learn a skill.

To take something from Namco's Tales games, replace the whack you'd learn that skill on with a use of that skill. It's awesome when you pull a move you never knew about out of nowhere.

This is a simple example, I'm sure the lot of  you can make it more interesting.

How did I miss this thread I have thoughts similar to the OP. Raph Koster recently wrote up a blog on this- whereas he was saying designers hate designing quests and such because players can just look up the anwser quickly online

I feel that way too however! Powergamers might enjoy 'cheating' the game this way. Yeah, they cheat themselves of fun but if they want to just max out fast.... You could make money off these players like Guild Wars did and just charge them for maxed out character....

Next, for those that really enjoy roleplay and such let them try to figure it out.

This way your game appeals to casual (they can lookup the anwser when they get lost) and hardcore roleplayer (they refuse to 'cheat')

I think Raph's article is called 'You are all Cheaters' at his site

Originally posted by vajuras

How did I miss this thread I have thoughts similar to the OP. Raph Koster recently wrote up a blog on this- whereas he was saying designers hate designing quests and such because players can just look up the anwser quickly online

I feel that way too however! Powergamers might enjoy 'cheating' the game this way. Yeah, they cheat themselves of fun but if they want to just max out fast.... You could make money off these players like Guild Wars did and just charge them for maxed out character....

Next, for those that really enjoy roleplay and such let them try to figure it out.

This way your game appeals to casual (they can lookup the anwser when they get lost) and hardcore roleplayer (they refuse to 'cheat')

I think Raph's article is called 'You are all Cheaters' at his site

I think he should change the name of the article to "We are all Bad Designers".

Players would have no reason to look for strategy guides or "cheats" if the game was straightforward and trained them how to solve problems (as well as present said problems in a reasonably understandable way).

Telling a player to go look for an NPC "somewhere in the wilderness" is as intuitive as telling them to find a needle in a haystack. It's a massive waste of time, and designers should be ashamed for making such pointless content.

Designers take a gamble when they make quests like that; they rely on the possibility that the player will spend time looking for something. It's a gamble they often lose, and are resentful of it because such losses means those players will reduce the longevity of the game for themselves (which equates to a loss of future profits).

Metagaming is almost inevitable.  You want to prevent it then either tell the player nothing about their character (an intersting idea), make everything completely random (doesn't reward anything), or make all characters the same (boring).  There has to be some rhyme or reason and many players delight in figuring it out.  Other players hate it and would rather be told how it works.  There's more than one way to play a game, and enforcing how it must be done reduces the game audience.

As for skill unlocking, I kind of liked the taper-spell system Asheron's Call had.  You unlocked a spell by trying out a few different combinations of tapers that were specific to your character.  Of course someone eventually figured out how to determine all the combinations for a character based on the results of a few successes, but that was more an issue that the "random" algorithm was too predictable.

I like the idea that if I play my character to dodge a lot then eventually he dodges better (jumps out of the faster or farther, whatever), but if you're concerned about metagaming (okay just dodge left, left, right, left successfully four times in a row) then you're going to have to fall back on a randomized system.

I love this idea, its brilliant... idd wish this would be put in games soon

its lovely

really godly good

did i mention that i love it ?

Awesome, it goes well with ideas i have myself, better type this down asap!

And about the guyz that said that this would encorage ppl to buy already maxxed out chars. for power levelers, I mean there will always be cheaters, but its up to themselves to be that if they want to, you can build your car yourself or buy it made already, i wouldnt call it cheating, just a way to do things, i mean u will never learn how to build your car/char in good way u will miss good training aswell and you wont have a clue if somethings breaks, my friend built his own car and it broke down, but he would fix it in matter of minutes, any other guys hwo bougth his car. would need to call for assistance to fix his car for him. Like a person whol have bought his Char. aswell would have to do... its just like if you dont listen in school u will cheat yourself for valuable knowledge, it might just bite ur butt later, maybe it will maybe it wont, hwo knows, bue someone will be bitten and its not the game developers and not the gamers that have made thiers from the beginning.

 and that the way it should be

Originally posted by Truthseeker

[...] Oblivion has pretty much the same approach, even though I think they should have removed classes entirely from the game.