This MMO has got to be the longest on record being in development. It went through at least one major rewrite. For that amount of time I would expect an amazing game. What we get is a simplistic clone of City of Heroes. A somewhat fun game that quickly gets boring and clearly added crafting as an afterthought.

crosses off the list another possible replacement for swg pre-cu sigh

I thought it was more like a dumbed-down version of modern SWG

Originally posted by darwa

I thought it was more like a dumbed-down version of modern SWG

yeah its similiar if you look at the bugs but it reminds me more of COH. A game thats okay but quickly loses steam. The crafting is pathetic

Originally posted by admriker4

This MMO has got to be the longest on record being in development. It went through at least one major rewrite. For that amount of time I would expect an amazing game. What we get is a simplistic clone of City of Heroes. A somewhat fun game that quickly gets boring and clearly added crafting as an afterthought.

crosses off the list another possible replacement for swg pre-cu sigh

if u havent noticed most mmos today are you standard go qeuest follow a linear path in one class get skills. pre cu looked nice i never played it but the grind for xp seemed insane. when the games like wow and lotro have large subs(mainly wow) why would they switch to a grinding game. if they could keep it quest like with the swg pre cu proff system then maby they could get it to work.

Originally posted by Arndur

Originally posted by admriker4

This MMO has got to be the longest on record being in development. It went through at least one major rewrite. For that amount of time I would expect an amazing game. What we get is a simplistic clone of City of Heroes. A somewhat fun game that quickly gets boring and clearly added crafting as an afterthought.

crosses off the list another possible replacement for swg pre-cu sigh

if u havent noticed most mmos today are you standard go qeuest follow a linear path in one class get skills. pre cu looked nice i never played it but the grind for xp seemed insane. when the games like wow and lotro have large subs(mainly wow) why would they switch to a grinding game. if they could keep it quest like with the swg pre cu proff system then maby they could get it to work.

Who said anything about making it a grind game? People want TR to be an immersive game where quests have a deeper meaning in the story and you are following a storyline path that is detailed and draws you in. The argument that why would they change the current "WoW Model" when it makes the most money is just pointing at the hypocrisy of Garriot's earlier statements. For all his talk about how mmo's have not changed since the days of UO and still follow the same format, Tabula Rasa is far from innovative.

So 2001 to 2007 is 8 years?

Considering they scrapped most of the game in 2004 - thats 3 years development or 4 depending on how much they kept.

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

So 2001 to 2007 is 8 years?

Considering they scrapped most of the game in 2004 - thats 3 years development or 4 depending on how much they kept.

Which, in all honesty, should have been a huge red flag to pull RG off the project and start from scratch - He clearly lost touch with the industry, where it has gone in the last half decade, and what MMO players are looking for in a new MMO title. His first "vision" was far worse than what TR is today - And truthfully speaking here: That is just awful (considering how much bad press TR is getting today); previous version was just a complete bomb/failure.

Sure, RG can talk the talk better than anyone but Brad McQuaid - He can remind you of all the bad things MMOs have done to gamers, all the things they got wrong, and tell us all the things we want to hear. However, when it comes time to deliver on all that he has talked about over the last few years, reality falls way short of the conversation - In my own opinion and that of many others.

So much time and money went into this game it seems. I doubt they will ever make half of it back which is a shame. I think RG is a smart guy but common sense tells you if it takes you 8 years to almost complete an mmo then something is seriously wrong.

Originally posted by Soldarith

 

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

So 2001 to 2007 is 8 years?

Considering they scrapped most of the game in 2004 - thats 3 years development or 4 depending on how much they kept.

 

Which, in all honesty, should have been a huge red flag to pull RG off the project and start from scratch - He clearly lost touch with the industry, where it has gone in the last half decade, and what MMO players are looking for in a new MMO title. His first "vision" was far worse than what TR is today - And truthfully speaking here: That is just awful (considering how much bad press TR is getting today); previous version was just a complete bomb/failure.

Sure, RG can talk the talk better than anyone but Brad McQuaid - He can remind you of all the bad things MMOs have done to gamers, all the things they got wrong, and tell us all the things we want to hear. However, when it comes time to deliver on all that he has talked about over the last few years, reality falls way short of the conversation - In my own opinion and that of many others.

Give the guy a break...he needed time to schedule such things like a rl venture into space. I am sure that takes a while to work out. 

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Originally posted by Soldarith

His first "vision" was far worse than what TR is today - And truthfully speaking here: That is just awful (considering how much bad press TR is getting today); previous version was just a complete bomb/failure.

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I personally thought the first incarnation of Tabula Rasa was head and shoulders better than the current dumbed-down, mind-numbing "run here and shoot this, run there and shoot that, loot, rinse, repeat" that TR has become. It was more innovative and had a bit more of a learning curve than the version that is preparing to go gold.

My impression of the situation revolving around the re-design was that it was not based on a failure of the initial game system, mechanics or lore per se but rather the impression by NCSoft that it would not be as "accessible" as a game with simpler mechanics. Which is just another way of saying it wouldn't pull down the WoW numbers that every MMO currently in development seems to think it needs to have.

Also, Richard Garriott pointed out the developmental issues within the initial team that resulted from having too many premiere designers on one project.

What is really rather hilarious about that and TR's current state is that we have regular posts here at MMORPG.COM bemoaning the lack of depth, roleplay or innovation in MMO development; yet based on subscription numbers over the gamut of MMOs currently available, the vast majority of those who subscribe to MMOs really aren't looking for any of that at all.

Which explains the trend of MMOs to stick with basic "loot, kill, repeat" game development and the general lack of motivation on the part of developers to risk innovation on low subscription numbers.

Originally posted by Somnulus

 

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What is really rather hilarious about that and TR's current state is that we have regular posts here at MMORPG.COM bemoaning the lack of depth, roleplay or innovation in MMO development; yet based on subscription numbers over the gamut of MMOs currently available, the vast majority of those who subscribe to MMOs really aren't looking for any of that at all.

Which explains the trend of MMOs to stick with basic "loot, kill, repeat" game development and the general lack of motivation on the part of developers to risk innovation on low subscription numbers.

This is so very true....the 'average' gamer wants a game developed on the KISS model (Keep it Simple & Stupid) that isn't too difficult to learn or master the  mechanics of...  WOW set the stage..and we'll have to put up with that for a few years until it wears off....

Originally posted by Somnulus

 

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Originally posted by Soldarith

His first "vision" was far worse than what TR is today - And truthfully speaking here: That is just awful (considering how much bad press TR is getting today); previous version was just a complete bomb/failure.

---

 

I personally thought the first incarnation of Tabula Rasa was head and shoulders better than the current dumbed-down, mind-numbing "run here and shoot this, run there and shoot that, loot, rinse, repeat" that TR has become. It was more innovative and had a bit more of a learning curve than the version that is preparing to go gold.

My impression of the situation revolving around the re-design was that it was not based on a failure of the initial game system, mechanics or lore per se but rather the impression by NCSoft that it would not be as "accessible" as a game with simpler mechanics. Which is just another way of saying it wouldn't pull down the WoW numbers that every MMO currently in development seems to think it needs to have.

What is really rather hilarious about that and TR's current state is that we have regular posts here at MMORPG.COM bemoaning the lack of depth, roleplay or innovation in MMO development; yet based on subscription numbers over the gamut of MMOs currently available, the vast majority of those who subscribe to MMOs really aren't looking for any of that at all.

Which explains the trend of MMOs to stick with basic "loot, kill, repeat" game development and the general lack of motivation on the part of developers to risk innovation on low subscription numbers.

As a basic loot,kill,repeat game, this is excellent.  But games like that don't have staying power, they have selling power.  WoW has a decent economy and crafting system, which is good for players who end up getting bored with the combat mechanics.  I hate WoW btw.  TR is great for people who love to run and gun, and I love the combat, it's a lot of fun, PVP is too.  It's when I'm tired of fighting, what else can I do?  Even with a crafting revamp, I don't see an overly great economy evolving.  To this day the best economy I've ever seen was in SWG (preNGE)  and that game had staying power for sure, until they killed it. 

Theres just not enough right now to keep interest in TR for more then a few months at best. And again, this is coming from someone who actually likes TR alot and plays it often.

the original "vision" with the three seperate attribute chains of mind, body, and soul would have been awesome. RGAR ruined everything with the FPS viewpoint. The little melee there is, is very lame. Combat, overall, is lame! The game just isnt very fun. Now, TCoS is a different story. The combat in TCoS will be revolutionary.

Originally posted by asa119

the original "vision" with the three seperate attribute chains of mind, body, and soul would have been awesome. RGAR ruined everything with the FPS viewpoint. The little melee there is, is very lame. Combat, overall, is lame! The game just isnt very fun. Now, TCoS is a different story. The combat in TCoS will be revolutionary.

I'm not going to say whether it is or is not going to be "revolutionary" as TCOS looks nice, and all, but it's the same ol' same ol'.  Wait for open beta of TCOS and I guarantee you're going to have alot of the same complaints as you have with TR. 

I don't see TCOS having a grande ole following either, especially since the hype is mainly geared towards Warhammer and AoC.  Between those three games coming out I don't see The Chronicles of Spellborn being in the contest.  At least TR had alot more hype due to the great reviews given by TTH, IGN, WC, and the like.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

Originally posted by asa119

the original "vision" with the three seperate attribute chains of mind, body, and soul would have been awesome. RGAR ruined everything with the FPS viewpoint. The little melee there is, is very lame. Combat, overall, is lame! The game just isnt very fun. Now, TCoS is a different story. The combat in TCoS will be revolutionary.

I'm not going to say whether it is or is not going to be "revolutionary" as TCOS looks nice, and all, but it's the same ol' same ol'.  Wait for open beta of TCOS and I guarantee you're going to have alot of the same complaints as you have with TR. 

 

I don't see TCOS having a grande ole following either, especially since the hype is mainly geared towards Warhammer and AoC.  Between those three games coming out I don't see The Chronicles of Spellborn being in the contest.  At least TR had alot more hype due to the great reviews given by TTH, IGN, WC, and the like.

As you can see, on the MMORPG.com most hyped list, TCoS is currently 4th, while TR is not even in the top 7 anymore. Yes, Warhammer and AoC will grab a large fanbase, but TCoS will still get a significant, hopefully mature fanbase that TR just won't be able to pull. More on the subject, I think TR will be the first largely advertised MMO to go down hard in its first year. That is, excluding Vanguard. RIP

Now, check the calendar. Is 2007 old or new? Is November close to January?

Eight years.

The patience the Koreans showed him--all the money that was spent! I think EA is laughing up their sleeves. The new update of UO may make RG more in post-release royalties than TR.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

Originally posted by Somnulus

 

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Originally posted by Soldarith

His first "vision" was far worse than what TR is today - And truthfully speaking here: That is just awful (considering how much bad press TR is getting today); previous version was just a complete bomb/failure.

---

 

I personally thought the first incarnation of Tabula Rasa was head and shoulders better than the current dumbed-down, mind-numbing "run here and shoot this, run there and shoot that, loot, rinse, repeat" that TR has become. It was more innovative and had a bit more of a learning curve than the version that is preparing to go gold.

My impression of the situation revolving around the re-design was that it was not based on a failure of the initial game system, mechanics or lore per se but rather the impression by NCSoft that it would not be as "accessible" as a game with simpler mechanics. Which is just another way of saying it wouldn't pull down the WoW numbers that every MMO currently in development seems to think it needs to have.

What is really rather hilarious about that and TR's current state is that we have regular posts here at MMORPG.COM bemoaning the lack of depth, roleplay or innovation in MMO development; yet based on subscription numbers over the gamut of MMOs currently available, the vast majority of those who subscribe to MMOs really aren't looking for any of that at all.

Which explains the trend of MMOs to stick with basic "loot, kill, repeat" game development and the general lack of motivation on the part of developers to risk innovation on low subscription numbers.

 

As a basic loot,kill,repeat game, this is excellent.  But games like that don't have staying power. they have selling power.  WoW has a decent economy and crafting system, which is good for players who end up getting bored with the combat mechanics.  I hate WoW btw.  TR is great for people who love to run and gun, and I love the combat, it's a lot of fun, PVP is too.  It's when I'm tired of fighting, what else can I do?  Even with a crafting revamp, I don't see an overly great economy evolving.  To this day the best economy I've ever seen was in SWG (preNGE)  and that game had staying power for sure, until they killed it. 

Theres just not enough right now to keep interest in TR for more then a few months at best. And again, this is coming from someone who actually likes TR alot and plays it often.

I don't think thats necessarily true, look at WoW.   It has survived for so long, heck my guild that we started since the launch of WoW is still around.   Any game that can hold my attention for longer than a year means that it has staying power... well to a certain degree...   I won't deny that the selling power helps WoW, WoW is one of the only game that i know that has very much newblood coming in even after the official launch is long over.    Most MMO in my experience seems to stop getting significant amounts of new players 3-6 months after launch.

I agree with mostly what you said.  I myself dislike WOW and preferred games with a little more depth, though I don't see this happening.  Most MMO seem to be aiming for dumbdown approach to get people to sign up, can't blame them for it since a game thats easy to get into generates more revenue for the company publishing the game.   With WoW leading with like 9 billion subscribers, I think many others are going to try and emulate that.

Originally posted by asa119

 

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

Originally posted by asa119

the original "vision" with the three seperate attribute chains of mind, body, and soul would have been awesome. RGAR ruined everything with the FPS viewpoint. The little melee there is, is very lame. Combat, overall, is lame! The game just isnt very fun. Now, TCoS is a different story. The combat in TCoS will be revolutionary.

I'm not going to say whether it is or is not going to be "revolutionary" as TCOS looks nice, and all, but it's the same ol' same ol'.  Wait for open beta of TCOS and I guarantee you're going to have alot of the same complaints as you have with TR. 

 

I don't see TCOS having a grande ole following either, especially since the hype is mainly geared towards Warhammer and AoC.  Between those three games coming out I don't see The Chronicles of Spellborn being in the contest.  At least TR had alot more hype due to the great reviews given by TTH, IGN, WC, and the like.

TCoS combat is not same ol' same ol' because the system is completely new. It uses a reticule/crosshair system with real aiming. There is no autotargeting involved. In this way, FPS (or third-person-shooter) strategies are integrated in a much more actionpacked way, but still sticking to the RPG game style. But that is for another thread.

 

As you can see, on the MMORPG.com most hyped list, TCoS is currently 4th, while TR is not even in the top 7 anymore. Yes, Warhammer and AoC will grab a large fanbase, but TCoS will still get a significant, hopefully mature fanbase that TR just won't be able to pull. More on the subject, I think TR will be the first largely advertised MMO to go down hard in its first year. That is, excluding Vanguard. RIP

Since i've been in beta for both vanguard and TR, TR already has a larger fanbase, not that it means anything. As for TCOS, wait til open beta hits and that'll be a different story.  Whether you're in beta or not, or I'm in beta or not, or whatever, none of that matters until the game is ready for open beta where we can talk freely on it.  All I'm saying is, looking at TR and how it was before compared to how it is now, alot of people will tell you what it was before was better.  You may think thats true, or false, that doesn't matter.  TCOS isn't nearly established enough to make it a contender. 

You might say "Oh man the combats got this reticule" (and tr's doesn't?) "And theres no autotargeting involved" (thats yet to be seen, wait til open beta) "and that makes it more action packed!" 

More then likely they will try to "dumbdown" game play because they want to open it up to a broader audience.  Also, adding more depth to combat per battle, and spending 5 minutes per kill doesn't make it a more in depth combat system, it just means you get bored with combat because you aren't seeing results fast enough.

When MxO started, with their single lock targeting system, killing a group was pretty annoying.  Sure they had a ton of combat options you could choose from, but ultimately it was just boring.  Opening it up to take on a group lock system, didn't help either. 

In the NGE you could aim your weapon and there was no autolock at all.. that didn't make it a better game, and adding more skills just made it tougher to manage (not that most of the skills mattered when the NGE launched).

People can sit here and say how all these new games coming out are going to be sooo great, because they have this and they have that,  I haven't seen a game come out with everything that it had promised (MMO's) other then the guild wars games.  All the others promise it, until it launches and then it's a mad dash to get it finished ASAP so the community doens't get mad.  So TCOS, yeah I'll believe it when I see it in open beta.

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Originally posted by fordiepie
How you get to eight--start the countdown from the day RG was shown the door at EA. (

Now, check the calendar. Is 2007 old or new? Is November close to January?

Eight years.

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Ok - you are missing a few facts - like the fact that E.A paid him to do nothing for a couple of years. So actual work on T.R didnt start until some time in 2001.