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PlaneShift

Planeshift 

General Discussion  » Further criticisms of the Planeshift staff

17 posts found
  pstruth

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/07
Posts: 253

 
OP  9/22/07 3:17:27 PM#1

I recomend that everyone takes the time to read through the comments posted at the Linux Game Tome.

 http://happypenguin.org/show?PlaneShift#comments

Talad's posts there are very revealing, though he's made quite an impression here as well. Something else of note is that the same "fanbois" who joined this forum to attack Planeshift's critics make similar appearances on tLGT.

 

 

My experience with Planeshift comes from years of play and observation. The newer versions of the current release are far more stable than previous versions. Disabling sound further decreases the frequency of crashes, but I enjoy the ambient noises and music. It's hard to do much of anything without levelling your character, and aquiring skills recently became unreasonably more difficult, but the game can be fun and addictive. People still enjoy exploring the game world, socialising with other players, roleplaying, and duelling. I'll note that people shy away from duels because the PVP system is very unrealistic and lag-dependant. The roleplaying community has dwindled in the last year or two but as an 'old timer' I'm likely to look fondly on the gold ol' days no matter what.

One thing that people have learned about enjoying the game is that it helps to limit contact with their forum, devs, and gamemasters.  Questioning a GM's decisions or authority is a quick road to a ban.  Their IRC channel is also a bit of a flame pit.

 

  Tuxide

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 259

9/22/07 8:20:22 PM#2

Originally posted by pstruth

My experience with Planeshift comes from years of play and observation. 

Please satisfy my curiosity, how many years?

 

Originally posted by pstruth

I recomend that everyone takes the time to read through the comments posted at the Linux Game Tome...

Another thing that should be pointed out is that the Linux Game Tome gave PlaneShift the Most Promising Linux Game award in 2003, even beating out commercial products such as Doom 3.

 

Originally posted by pstruth

...people shy away from duels because the PVP system is very unrealistic...

v0.3.020 will give as an option in PVP to either deliver the finishing blow to your opponent when HP reaches zero or to let him or her live.  Such a feature has been much requested, as far as I know.  Of course you can also duel using the /roll command but that gets boring.

 

Originally posted by pstruth

Questioning a GM's decisions or authority is a quick road to a ban. 

Doing so publicly is a bad idea (like using the forums or the IRC fan channel).  There is nothing wrong with having a private conversation with a GM concerning his or her decisions.  My interpretation of the rule is "don't be a jerk":  If every player followed it, there wouldn't need to be any other rules on behavior.

 

Originally posted by pstruth

Their IRC channel is also a bit of a flame pit.

Can you provide a log please?  I'm on their freenode channel often and I don't see much truth in this.  When I rarely do I understand that they are under much stress.

 

Originally posted by pstruth

...the same "fanbois" who joined this forum to attack Planeshift's critics make similar appearances on tLGT.

The same can be said about PlaneShift's griefers.  Those who do find themselves on the wrong end of the banstick end up creating throwaway accounts on numerous sites like these to bash PlaneShift.  I'm not too sure if you are one of them; you seem sincere but your username suggests otherwise.  It seems there are two camps: those who wish to defame the project and attack Talad whenever possible, and those who want to defend their game of choice.  I disagree with some of the wordage here because that implies that they are personally attacking the critics themselves.

  pstruth

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/07
Posts: 253

 
OP  9/22/07 9:15:24 PM#3

By calling them griefers, aren't you demonstrating that critics are being personally attacked? Perhaps I misunderstand the intention behind that word.  To my knowledge, a griefer is someone who enjoys harassing others.  From wikipedia:

"A griefer is a slang term used to describe a player in an multiplayer video game who plays the game simply to cause grief to other players through harassment."

So it's very difficult to see how you aren't throwing an insult.

The criticisms I've seen and the ones I've posted all come from a place of concern. People are concerned with the direction of the project and they want it to succeed. People are concerned about the well-being of artists and developers who are considering doing work for the project.  And people are concerned with how Planeshift's GMs and devs treat people and each other. This is not the mark of "trolls" and "griefers".

As far as attacks on Talad go, I judge him by what he posts.

  Tuxide

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 259

9/22/07 9:53:01 PM#4

 

Originally posted by pstruth

By calling them griefers, aren't you demonstrating that critics are being personally attacked? Perhaps I misunderstand the intention behind that word.

No it isn't because I am not referring to anyone in particular.  You seem to be more civil than the others, and I have no reason to label you as one.  There are those who choose to take their disputes outside of the game, so they defame PlaneShift hoping to harm the community and the relationship it has with its developers.  All they're doing is creating doubt as to whether their own actions within PlaneShift's community are conducted in good faith.

 

 

Now that you brought this up, I might as well post here that accusing someone without justification of making personal attacks would also be considered a form of personal attack.  In other words, accusing someone of being a jerk is a jerk-move in itself.  That also comes from Wikipedia, although they use more colorful words than "jerk".

  pstruth

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/07
Posts: 253

 
OP  9/22/07 10:17:28 PM#5

If you didn't mean to paint all of Planeshift's critics with the same brush, then you should have been more careful with how you worded your post. Plain and simple.

As far as posting on the official forum, no thank you. Just look at what you've posted in this thread if you don't understand why the official forum has the reputation it does.

  Tuxide

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 259

9/22/07 10:29:55 PM#6
Originally posted by pstruth

As far as posting on the official forum, no thank you. Just look at what you've posted in this thread if you don't understand why the official forum has the reputation it does.

I never said I liked the PlaneShift forums myself.  I tend to avoid them whenever possible, but it has nothing to do with their moderation.  There are too many users on there who are still in high school and don't know how to behave.  I've found forums in general to be nothing more than flame pits for those who don't have a real job.  I prefer their IRC channel.

  pstruth

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/07
Posts: 253

 
OP  9/25/07 6:19:33 PM#7

Then we agree on avoiding the forums for different reasons. As far as the conduct of GMs and devs and how reasonable they are, we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not willing to easily dismiss my personal experiences with them given that the complaints are echoed by so many others.

  Skjald

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/15/07
Posts: 7

9/27/07 2:27:30 PM#8


Originally posted by pstruth

If you didn't mean to paint all of Planeshift's critics with the same brush, then you should have been more careful with how you worded your post. Plain and simple.




Originally posted by Tuxide
I'm not too sure if you are one of them; you seem sincere but your username suggests otherwise.

From what I see, Tuxide has been careful enough.

Now despite being a PS critic quite often myself, I'd feel insulted to be put next to the "PS critics" that trash this place (yes, also you). Taking things out of context, warping meaning of words, using unsupported arguments, repeating blatant lies, registering on various forums just to damage someone's effort, bias that should be obvious to anyone with an over two digit IQ, and finally using flawed logic.

Throughout my long-time presence within PS community I managed to notice quite a few flaws within the project. All the same the stuff presented here is either hilarious or sad. I don't need to be a "fanboi" to see intelligent discussion will be a waste of time here. This isn't the purpose people start threads like this one.

The "questioning GMs" argument is (I think) one of the sad ones. Have you ever played a tabletop? Do you know what happens when players start questioning the Game Master? The entire game goes to hell. During his duty, the GM is always right. If you think something needs improvement, you note it down and talk with the GM once he isn't actually in the middle of an attempt at keeping an order, thus working hard to provide a nice experience for all people gathered. If the problem remains, you leave the room and cease playing. But if you fall out on the GM then you're ruining an entire session for everyone and who is to blame then? The GM, because he didn't listen to you.

"You seem sincere" from Tuxide was the funny part of this thread. You talk about how many people enjoy the game, but still decide to go on about this authority nonsense.
Let's analyse.
Why would someone write some negative criticism? To discourage people from approaching certain (normally bad) product or to give hints about how to improve it.
But why do you post the criticism here? It cannot be meant for the people in authority as those hardly come here.
So discouraging? You said people enjoy the game, so why would you do that? Doesn't make any sense at first, but ah, there we go.

The topic underlines what reader should give most attention to. The link brings them to helluva biased opinions.
So the rest must be a background? Well, by providing positive stuff in background you build up trust to your opinion and by providing positive opinion only about something you don't focus the thread on, you get your point through anyway. What a win! So now that you built up impression that you're speaking the "ps truth", you can flash out stuff that is either seriously over-exaggerated or simply false.

So what is the deal? You know people enjoy the game, but you want to discourage others out of your own grudge? Is that it?

  pstruth

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/07
Posts: 253

 
OP  9/27/07 5:48:11 PM#9

Tuxide’s “careful” disclaimer that he wasn’t sure what camp I fit into didn’t impress me. Now that he’s made so many unduly aggressive posts, I even read it as an accusation.

To be honest, I don’t see what I’ve taken out of context. Tuxide implied that the critics are simply bitter from being banned or something. When I read that, I felt personally insulted and I felt that some of my friends were being insulted as well. I was not taking things out of context. I was reacting to an untrue ad hominem attack.

It is true that I’ve had many bad experiences with Planeshift’s devs and GMs, and so it’s likely that I now hold some bias against them. It’s kind of you to point it out so politely. However, I am not alone, and I’m not out to “argue” my case. I am simply here to share my personal experiences.

 

 

Your comments about authority and GM team complaints are bizarre. I’ll try to itemize my responses for ease of reading:

 

i. Table top games are irrelevant because GMs act as moderators more than they act as AD&D Dungeon Masters.

ii. I’m not discouraging people from playing. I’m sharing my personal experiences so that people can better enjoy the game.

iii. This forum exists for players to communicate with one another.

iv. I have had discussions with devs and GMs in positions of authority. I’ve shared with them my concerns. I see no reason why I must talk only with those in authority and not also share my concerns with other players. If you were reading between the lines, you would guess that I do not believe those in authority have heard my concerns and are acting on them.

v. I chose the moniker pstruth because it seems like everyone is polarized. Some people are saying “It’s a horrible game with horrible people, don’t play it!” Other people are saying, “There’s absolutely nothing wrong with it and anyone who complains is a troll!” I’ve attempted to give a more moderate and realistic assessment of the game and its community. Is the game enjoyable? Yes. Is it still in development? Hell yeah, but that’s a part of its charm. Is the game plagued by personality problems? I’ve already shared part of my answer to that.

  Tuxide

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 259

9/27/07 10:19:24 PM#10


Originally posted by pstruth
Tuxide implied that the critics are simply bitter from being banned or something.

I am no longer convinced that some of these critics even have a stake in the game. It is like that Howard Rich imbecile from New York who decided to petition the Nebraska state government and cause controversy by promoting his ideology. They may think they know how the project should be done, but I am not convinced that they have ever been in Yliakum. They are only here to convince people that Atomic Blue Corporation should make PlaneShift's content open, but all they're doing is pissing everyone off.

pstruth, I did not realize you were banned from PlaneShift until today. I think I can see you with more respect now, and I await your return, even if it is ten years from now.

  pstruth

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/07
Posts: 253

 
OP  9/27/07 10:49:51 PM#11
Originally posted by Tuxide

I am no longer convinced that some of these critics even have a stake in the game.

Stake in the game? What do you mean by that? I guess the devs have a stake in the game since they've put so much work into it, but players don't really have a stake in the game. An interest in the game, yes. Why does one have to have a stake in the game in order to be critical of it? Perhaps I've misunderstood you.

 

 

Originally posted by Tuxide

They may think they know how the project should be done, but I am not convinced that they have ever been in Yliakum. They are only here to convince people that Atomic Blue Corporation should make PlaneShift's content open, but all they're doing is pissing everyone off.

The first sentence is an ad hominem. The second statement simply isn't true. Not everyone is getting "pissed off", some people disagree calmly, some people don't care, and some people agree.

 

Originally posted by Tuxide

pstruth, I did not realize you were banned from PlaneShift until today. I think I can see you with more respect now, and I await your return, even if it is ten years from now.

I was banned from Planeshift? *confused*

 

 

 

 

 

  Tuxide

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 259

9/28/07 2:07:39 AM#12


Originally posted by pstruth
I was banned from Planeshift? *confused*

I could have sworn you implied you were, or one of your friends...oh well, whatever the hell happened is nothing compared to others I've seen, and even they've returned to the game after their bans expired.


Originally posted by pstruth
You might want to be more careful with your posts.

Damn, do you have to say that to everyone? I mean, if you want to lawyer people here, that is what the report tool is for. I am not a big fan of sentences that begin with "You" by the way. Yes I've taken a human relations class, and you learn that people tend to interpret "You" sentences personally and end up on the defensive. Yes I know PlaneShift has a lot of these "You" sentences ("You cannot dig in the same place twice in a row"); I would like to see them all go away.

  UtMoon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/07
Posts: 104

9/29/07 3:39:29 AM#13

 

Originally posted by pstruth

One thing that people have learned about enjoying the game is that it helps to limit contact with their forum, devs, and gamemasters.  Questioning a GM's decisions or authority is a quick road to a ban.  Their IRC channel is also a bit of a flame pit.

 

  Since I am here, I might as well dismiss a few things.

 

I am sorry, but I have only seen this opinion from a very small number of people. {Mod Edit} Newbies are hardly ever flamed there, and it is mild if it happens.

As for the devs, I often talk with a few of them, and have even conversed with Talad. Generally it was on something I did not agree with for the later. They listen if you make polite conversation, but as with anyone, they do not take demands or endless bickering well. I have seen a great many player suggestions go into the project. Yes, some have their grumpy days, but they also have to put up with constant complaints from the whiners you will find in every community. I really don't see how avoiding the Devs would make your playing any better.

As for GMs, questioning them does not set you on a quick road to a ban. Arguing with them is another matter all together. Yes, sometimes they are heavy handed in things. Folks get muted on occation, or get booted (not banned) from the game. It happens. But banning only happens to cheaters, grievers, or those who never, never stop arguing and seem to find their cause in confronting GMs.

Finally your claim about the Planeshift IRC channel {mod edit} . I have been their for a few years as well, now, and the only times I have seen it turn into a flaming match is when A) someone came looking for a fight B) Zanzibar showed up C)Someone came in demanding everything has to be fixed this instant, or  D)Some asshat would mouth off about some stupid and socialy unexcepable behavior. New folks -never- get flamed, unless they fall under one of the above.

As for that link? 90% crap. The other 10% is either valid complaints about one thing or another from polite people who got polite responses, or people coming to defend the truth. So many of those posts there, and the ones here seem to think that just because someone comes in to defend something, then by god it must be an attemt to cover up the truth. I see all the same bullshit repeated over and over, even though I, and others have pointed out the lies and twists. Ignorance spreads faster than truth.

As for their claims of being abused by Devs for disagreeing, that is also total BS. I dissagree with the Devs all the time. I have even had heated arguments with one or two on occasion. {Mod edit} 

I changed my mind. PlaneShift is not worth the time.

  Waoknie

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/07
Posts: 9

"There is no spoon"

10/13/07 9:18:58 PM#14

Being discouraged of playing a game for it's internal information is nonsense.. like caring about who welds the circuits on my beloved rig.

I'm not a game insider and couldn't care less about who said, did, profited..... I'm just a game player!

Being a project in development (for who cares how long), PlaneShift is a very enjoyable/addictive game (not to mention it's also free!). As I stated on other threads, there is a huge advantage in an 'undone' game: You never know what an update will bring. .. This fact only adds up to the game experience for it's an evolving situation.. there is allways something to discover in this game.

And if one is not into exploring new stuff in the game, there is the RP part.. which is as rich as one can make it. The recent participation of Game Masters in some cool events makes RPing even better.

These events are a magnet for everyone that's someone IG and also, opens new experiences for the newcomers. They all want to participate.

Perhaps this is not quite aligned with this thread's topic but IMO, mmorpg.com is mostly about gaming.. not much about any game's internal process gossip.. this only evolves in personal trashing as it can be clearly seen in this thread and some others around.

  User Deleted
10/13/07 10:06:38 PM#15
Originally posted by Waoknie

Perhaps this is not quite aligned with this thread's topic but IMO, mmorpg.com is mostly about gaming.. not much about any game's internal process gossip.. this only evolves in personal trashing as it can be clearly seen in this thread and some others around.

This is where you're wrong. MMORPG.COM is here not only for gaming, but specifically for players to learn and discuss things regarding the developers, the publishers, everything to do with any said game. Many of the members here are game developers themselves and like to find out about the "internal workings" of these games and their devs so that they themselves can avoid the same mistakes/pitfalls. Also, you will find that a majority of the people on this site will base part of their game buying/playing decision on the antics of developers. A developer who is shown to be shady, less than truthful in regard to their game in order to get sales, downright scam artist, etc. can lose a good portion of their future playerbase/subscription money when exposed on this site.

  Waoknie

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/07
Posts: 9

"There is no spoon"

10/13/07 10:28:38 PM#16
Originally posted by Zorvan
Originally posted by Waoknie

Perhaps this is not quite aligned with this thread's topic but IMO, mmorpg.com is mostly about gaming.. not much about any game's internal process gossip.. this only evolves in personal trashing as it can be clearly seen in this thread and some others around.

This is where you're wrong. MMORPG.COM is here not only for gaming, but specifically for players to learn and discuss things regarding the developers, the publishers, everything to do with any said game. Many of the members here are game developers themselves and like to find out about the "internal workings" of these games and their devs so that they themselves can avoid the same mistakes/pitfalls. Also, you will find that a majority of the people on this site will base part of their game buying/playing decision on the antics of developers. A developer who is shown to be shady, less than truthful in regard to their game in order to get sales, downright scam artist, etc. can lose a good portion of their future playerbase/subscription money when exposed on this site.

Zorvan: No.

 

I said 'mostly', not 'only' about gaming. Also, I said 'not much about' ... None of these statements exclude mmorpg.com's way or yours. And I truly believe a player's perspective is most welcome for any publisher, developer, etc...  Also, you will find that the majority the gamers are interested on just the game. { Mod Edit }

 

  Taera

Community Manager

Joined: 6/02/05
Posts: 1072

10/15/07 1:54:07 AM#17

This thread has gotten fairly heated, and fairly off topic.

Laura "Taera" Genender
Community Manager
MMORPG.com