I side with most here, the casual gamer, that wants 'fun' not challenge. The problem is they dont know what fun is, they think they do, but you only have to look at new games to see this isn't. Long term MMO's are like life, anything that is given is not earned, if its not earned there's no reward and no fun.

Originally posted by mrw0lf

I side with most here, the casual gamer, that wants 'fun' not challenge. The problem is they dont know what fun is, they think they do, but you only have to look at new games to see this isn't. Long term MMO's are like life, anything that is given is not earned, if its not earned there's no reward and no fun.

Earning something equals work.  Work equals not fun. 

See those old style mentality of the MMOer (see the EQ1 gamer as a prime example) are the perfect example of not fun.  They think you need to work at everything, you need to grind to get stuff, you need to group to get stuff, you need to raid to get the best gear, etc.  That isn't fun.  It is a job.  That is part of what is currently wrong with World of Warcraft.  If it wasn't for all of the actual fun stuff they have in their game World of Warcraft wouldn't be popular at all.  If the whole game was like the "endgame" it would be a bomb.  But because it is a blizzard game and it is fun to level your character up to the level cap it is a popular game. 

Originally posted by CPmmo

 

Originally posted by mrw0lf

I side with most here, the casual gamer, that wants 'fun' not challenge. The problem is they dont know what fun is, they think they do, but you only have to look at new games to see this isn't. Long term MMO's are like life, anything that is given is not earned, if its not earned there's no reward and no fun.

No,  I don't earn anything when I go out and play cards with my friends.  I don't earn anything when I go and play golf.  I don't earn anything at the beach with my family but all of those activities sure are fun. 

 

Earning something equals work.  Work equals not fun. 

See those old style mentality of the MMOer (see the EQ1 gamer as a prime example) are the perfect example of not fun.  They think you need to work at everything, you need to grind to get stuff, you need to group to get stuff, you need to raid to get the best gear, etc.  That isn't fun.  It is a job.  That is part of what is currently wrong with World of Warcraft.  If it wasn't for all of the actual fun stuff they have in their game World of Warcraft wouldn't be popular at all.  If the whole game was like the "endgame" it would be a bomb.  But because it is a blizzard game and it is fun to level your character up to the level cap it is a popular game. 

But if you're substituting those forms of pastimes with playing an MMO, there in lies the fundamental difference. I don't play MMO's as a replacement for spending time in my real life with freinds and family. My gaming time has nothing to do with going out and getting arse faced and embarasing myself, I have a life for that.

Sure gaming is far better when you are socialising with the poeple you are playing with but my guess is that the game where we all log on vent and go sit on a fucking beaching and chat about the weather and where to go on our next holiday aint going to do so well.... although I can see one sub they'd be getting.

I'm getting out of here before the post eating monster gets me.  Beware!

I find it interesting that so many people are defending the game companies in saying that it is their fault that the games are boring. In some ways, they are right, yet in another light, they are hilariously wrong.

Here is my reasoning: Many posts have stated that MMOs are boring because of the gamers themselves, not because of the companies. With this logic, we can deduce that other things in life get boring after repetition. This is obvious, yet other forms of entertainment are not boring.

The OP has played games for 8 years! So that's why he is bored, not because of the MMOS! RIght?! Television has been around for over 50 years now, I'm pretty sure many people still enjoy watching it. Is creating a different TV show any less risky or does it cost less money that an MMO? I'm pretty sure a season of shows such as Heroes or the Office cost way more than WoW did to make. Defending companies for being non-innovative to save their asses is a flawed logic, however the gamers are right in one sense. 

THE GAMERS ARE THE PEOPLE ENABLING THESE COMPANIES TO CREATE THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER:

You don't like the games coming out, you read about the gameplay and the genre and realize it will be a similar type game, WHY WOULD YOU SUBSCRIBE TO IT?

The fact of the matter is, mainstream companies are making money. There is NO need for them to innovate. WoW has just as high a number of subscribers as ever. Sure they bitch and moan, but after that like a bunch of pussies go back to playing the same game they "hate". If you really hate it, stop playing. I sure as hell have. However, I'm sure the majority of people will still try a new game in "hope" that it is as innovative as that marketing bullcrap says, even though they realize deep down that it's going to be the same thing.

It is your own fault folks. Stop enabling companies, once sales for the genre drops, a new genre of MMOs will have to come out, or maybe these companies will spend time producing a totally diffrent type of game.

Conclusion: Too many bored gamers still have nothing better to do than play games they apparently "hate" and are "bored of".

Solution: Stop playing (realistically though, even I know this won't happen, and the trend isn't dying out any time soon)

Originally posted by mrw0lf

 

Originally posted by CPmmo

 

Originally posted by mrw0lf

I side with most here, the casual gamer, that wants 'fun' not challenge. The problem is they dont know what fun is, they think they do, but you only have to look at new games to see this isn't. Long term MMO's are like life, anything that is given is not earned, if its not earned there's no reward and no fun.

No,  I don't earn anything when I go out and play cards with my friends.  I don't earn anything when I go and play golf.  I don't earn anything at the beach with my family but all of those activities sure are fun. 

 

Earning something equals work.  Work equals not fun. 

See those old style mentality of the MMOer (see the EQ1 gamer as a prime example) are the perfect example of not fun.  They think you need to work at everything, you need to grind to get stuff, you need to group to get stuff, you need to raid to get the best gear, etc.  That isn't fun.  It is a job.  That is part of what is currently wrong with World of Warcraft.  If it wasn't for all of the actual fun stuff they have in their game World of Warcraft wouldn't be popular at all.  If the whole game was like the "endgame" it would be a bomb.  But because it is a blizzard game and it is fun to level your character up to the level cap it is a popular game. 

 

But if you're substituting those forms of pastimes with playing an MMO, there in lies the fundamental difference. I don't play MMO's as a replacement for spending time in my real life with freinds and family. My gaming time has nothing to do with going out and getting arse faced and embarasing myself, I have a life for that.

Sure gaming is far better when you are socialising with the poeple you are playing with but my guess is that the game where we all log on vent and go sit on a fucking beaching and chat about the weather and where to go on our next holiday aint going to do so well.... although I can see one sub they'd be getting.

That's a pretty obvious truth, however some would consider these games to be boring even as a pasttime. What would happen if you tried to play a game such as WoW single player? I'm sure it would seem as if it had no content. When you really look past the massively multiplayer environment, you'll see just how little gameplay is incorporated into these games. They're really more of massively "multichat" rooms with diablo 2 gameplay, except D2 is more fun and free.

Originally posted by arealous

I find it interesting that so many people are defending the game companies in saying that it is their fault that the games are boring. In some ways, they are right, yet in another light, they are hilariously wrong.

 

Here is my reasoning: Many posts have stated that MMOs are boring because of the gamers themselves, not because of the companies. With this logic, we can deduce that other things in life get boring after repetition. This is obvious, yet other forms of entertainment are not boring.

The OP has played games for 8 years! So that's why he is bored, not because of the MMOS! RIght?! Television has been around for over 50 years now, I'm pretty sure many people still enjoy watching it. Is creating a different TV show any less risky or does it cost less money that an MMO? I'm pretty sure a season of shows such as Heroes or the Office cost way more than WoW did to make. Defending companies for being non-innovative to save their asses is a flawed logic, however the gamers are right in one sense. 

THE GAMERS ARE THE PEOPLE ENABLING THESE COMPANIES TO CREATE THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER:

You don't like the games coming out, you read about the gameplay and the genre and realize it will be a similar type game, WHY WOULD YOU SUBSCRIBE TO IT?

The fact of the matter is, mainstream companies are making money. There is NO need for them to innovate. WoW has just as high a number of subscribers as ever. Sure they bitch and moan, but after that like a bunch of pussies go back to playing the same game they "hate". If you really hate it, stop playing. I sure as hell have. However, I'm sure the majority of people will still try a new game in "hope" that it is as innovative as that marketing bullcrap says, even though they realize deep down that it's going to be the same thing.

It is your own fault folks. Stop enabling companies, once sales for the genre drops, a new genre of MMOs will have to come out, or maybe these companies will spend time producing a totally diffrent type of game.

Conclusion: Too many bored gamers still have nothing better to do than play games they apparently "hate" and are "bored of".

Solution: Stop playing (realistically though, even I know this won't happen, and the trend isn't dying out any time soon)

And to answer about my beach analogy.  I didn't mean that we should replace those activities with MMO games.  I was stating that we find things Fun because they are fun.  Not because we had to "work" hard to do them.  (which is kind of a funny idea anyway,  how are you really working hard in a video game?)

Originally posted by ParkCarsHere My first MMORPG ever was Nexus TK (Nexus what!?), a small MMORPG that had 1,000 people on at peak times during the day, generally more like 300. I paid $10 a month for that, and the graphics were terrible but it had the BEST community and the BEST roleplaying I had ever seen. The community made hunting for experience fun and the roleplaying made the game ever evolving, even though the devs only updated like once a month, if that.

Maybe this is just me, but judging by these forums I'm going to say a lot of other people are having the same problems as me.

I've been an MMORPG player for 8 years now and I just can't find a game that is good enough to be A) Worth the money and B) Fun.

Then the flood of MMORPGs came over the past few years, like EQ 2, WoW, EVE, D&DO, LOTRO, etc. These games are fun at first, but then they quickly fade into boring repetition. Yes, you EVE fanatics have found something great in your game: corporation based gameplay that creates ever-evolving gameplay with a whole bunch of people that make the game fun to play. However, for those of us who would like to play that game now, we will ALWAYS be in last place because skills are based on real-time (unless that has changed since last year). WoW ends in a raid fest and, from what everyone says, LOTRO ends in nothingness (lacks end-game content).

I say all that to ask this question: why aren't MMORPGs fun anymore? It seems like the same old stuff keeps being recycled back to us with different graphics, but same old mechanics. Maybe I'm asking for too much... but I'd like an MMORPG that will be fun to play AND worth the money that will keep me coming back to play month after month. If anyone is playing such a game... please, tell me so I can have fun with an MMORPG again!

Originally posted by CPmmo

 

Originally posted by arealous

I find it interesting that so many people are defending the game companies in saying that it is their fault that the games are boring. In some ways, they are right, yet in another light, they are hilariously wrong.

 

Here is my reasoning: Many posts have stated that MMOs are boring because of the gamers themselves, not because of the companies. With this logic, we can deduce that other things in life get boring after repetition. This is obvious, yet other forms of entertainment are not boring.

The OP has played games for 8 years! So that's why he is bored, not because of the MMOS! RIght?! Television has been around for over 50 years now, I'm pretty sure many people still enjoy watching it. Is creating a different TV show any less risky or does it cost less money that an MMO? I'm pretty sure a season of shows such as Heroes or the Office cost way more than WoW did to make. Defending companies for being non-innovative to save their asses is a flawed logic, however the gamers are right in one sense. 

THE GAMERS ARE THE PEOPLE ENABLING THESE COMPANIES TO CREATE THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER:

You don't like the games coming out, you read about the gameplay and the genre and realize it will be a similar type game, WHY WOULD YOU SUBSCRIBE TO IT?

The fact of the matter is, mainstream companies are making money. There is NO need for them to innovate. WoW has just as high a number of subscribers as ever. Sure they bitch and moan, but after that like a bunch of pussies go back to playing the same game they "hate". If you really hate it, stop playing. I sure as hell have. However, I'm sure the majority of people will still try a new game in "hope" that it is as innovative as that marketing bullcrap says, even though they realize deep down that it's going to be the same thing.

It is your own fault folks. Stop enabling companies, once sales for the genre drops, a new genre of MMOs will have to come out, or maybe these companies will spend time producing a totally diffrent type of game.

Conclusion: Too many bored gamers still have nothing better to do than play games they apparently "hate" and are "bored of".

Solution: Stop playing (realistically though, even I know this won't happen, and the trend isn't dying out any time soon)

I bet you would be tired and bored of watching TV if all they showed were law & order type tv shows.  MMORPG games are a genre.  And that genre has a specific formula.  The more you change the formula the less you are an MMORPG.  Sure you can come out with a game like Huxley and I plan to try it out.  But it is no longer an MMORPG.  Just like a game like Hellgate isn't really an MMORPG it is an MMO style Hack and slash.  That is the same thing that TV does to keep people interested.  I bet if you were still watching the same style of sitcoms you would get bored.  I know I do.  That is why I change it up and watch different types of TV shows, just like I play different types of games from keeping bored. 

 

 

And to answer about my beach analogy.  I didn't mean that we should replace those activities with MMO games.  I was stating that we find things Fun because they are fun.  Not because we had to "work" hard to do them.  (which is kind of a funny idea anyway,  how are you really working hard in a video game?)

 You make some strong points there about TV show examples. My main attack on point was that "blaming boredeom on the gamers and saying that companies are helpless and not at fault" should not be an excuse.

Of course certain TV shows get boring, but they came up with new types of shows. I believe there should be different genres of MMOs, it is true that MMOs are seen as a genre right now, maybe that is the problem.

Innovation could happen if we developed multiple levels of MMOs. What does MMO mean? Many people would say a massively mutliplayer game where monsters are spread out on a field and you go out and kill them.

This in my mind, is the problem. My ideas will be far fetched, but once again, it is not an excuse for companies to say we cannot do any more with this, of course they can! Massively multiplayer games can be incorporated into so many things, such as first person shooters, (not just like Tabula Rasa and Planet Side) they could be involved with a more in depth melee game such as oblivion or age of conan.

OF COURSE these things would be extremely difficult to develop, perhaps new technology would have to be researched altoghether for servers to power them. Is it impossible though? Of course not. However, until people really stop playing the same type of games, no company has motive to even think of developing such things.

People need to stop saying they want innovative MMOs, but at the same time say MMOs SHOULD BE a bunch of monsters spread out on a field for you to grind. Maybe after people stop subscribing to that "genre" of game or that type of MMO, whatever you want to call it, companies will seriously consider this.

I have noticed an alarming trend with the history of MMO games.  They keep getting easier and easier. 

Here's just a rundown of how MMO games have "progressed" over the years.

UO - Very hardcore.  Skills were hard to gain.  Many people played for over a year before the maxed out some of the harder skills.  If you died, you possibly lost all of your possessions.  If you didn't use a skill it would atrophy.  Monsters were difficult & money was hard to come by.

EQ - Pretty hardcore.  Leveling was very difficult.  The death penalty was very harsh, you could even lose your level if you died too many times.  If you died you retained all of your items, you just had to go loot them off of your corpse.  You were poor until end game.

SB - Kind of hardcore.  Leveling was easy, but PvP was open & rampant.  No looting the people you killed.  No real death penalty. Money was kind of hard to get.

DAoC - Not really hardcore.  Leveling was still difficult, but you couldn't lose a level if you died too many times.  Your items respawned with you and you could pray at your tombstone to get some experience back.  PvP was fun, but your enemies couldn't loot your body.  Money was pretty easy to get.

CoH - Mainstream.  Leveling was easy.  If you died you lost nothing.  No PvP (in the original game).  Money is easy to get.

EQ2 - More mainstream.  Levels are easy.  Pretty lax death penalty.  No PvP.  Abundance of cash.

WoW - Very mainstream.  Extremely easy to level.  Who cares about the death penalty? PvP only if you want to.  Easy to get money.

At this rate, 10 years from now you will just log into a game for the first time and get to choose which max level class you would like to play.

As someone already stated.  People want a game to be fun, but they have the wrong idea of what fun is. 

Is it fun to play an FPS game & everyone else dies as soon as the map starts?

Is it fun to play a racing game where all of the other cars stay at the starting line?

Is it fun to play football when everyone just gets out of your way and lets you score touchdown after touchdown?

I would hope that everyone's answers to these questions would be no.  So why is it that most gamers want an easy button for MMO games?  The truth is, they don't, they just think they do.  That's why the retention rate for MMO games today is so poor.  People level to 50 then go onto the next game.  They are "beating" the game.  This genre was never supposed to be about "winning" it was supposed to be about living in a persistent online universe.

Unfortunately no game has done this since UO.  Most people I know played UO every day for 5-7 years.  Let me know if anyone you know that is playing WoW right now is still playing in 2012.

Edit:  I forgot to add there are a few games that I am beta testing that I can say are currently following the same trend of easier is better.

Originally posted by Dameonk

I have noticed an alarming trend with the history of MMO games.  They keep getting easier and easier. 

Here's just a rundown of how MMO games have "progressed" over the years.

UO - Very hardcore.  Skills were hard to gain.  Many people played for over a year before the maxed out some of the harder skills.  If you died, you possibly lost all of your possessions.  If you didn't use a skill it would atrophy.  Monsters were difficult & money was hard to come by.

EQ - Pretty hardcore.  Leveling was very difficult.  The death penalty was very harsh, you could even lose your level if you died too many times.  If you died you retained all of your items, you just had to go loot them off of your corpse.  You were poor until end game.

SB - Kind of hardcore.  Leveling was easy, but PvP was open & rampant.  No looting the people you killed.  No real death penalty. Money was kind of hard to get.

DAoC - Not really hardcore.  Leveling was still difficult, but you couldn't lose a level if you died too many times.  Your items respawned with you and you could pray at your tombstone to get some experience back.  PvP was fun, but your enemies couldn't loot your body.  Money was pretty easy to get.

CoH - Mainstream.  Leveling was easy.  If you died you lost nothing.  No PvP (in the original game).  Money is easy to get.

EQ2 - More mainstream.  Levels are easy.  Pretty lax death penalty.  No PvP.  Abundance of cash.

WoW - Very mainstream.  Extremely easy to level.  Who cares about the death penalty? PvP only if you want to.  Easy to get money.

At this rate, 10 years from now you will just log into a game for the first time and get to choose which max level class you would like to play.

As someone already stated.  People want a game to be fun, but they have the wrong idea of what fun is. 

Is it fun to play an FPS game & everyone else dies as soon as the map starts?

Is it fun to play a racing game where all of the other cars stay at the starting line?

Is it fun to play football when everyone just gets out of your way and lets you score touchdown after touchdown?

I would hope that everyone's answers to these questions would be no.  So why is it that most gamers want an easy button for MMO games?  The truth is, they don't, they just think they do.  That's why the retention rate for MMO games today is so poor.  People level to 50 then go onto the next game.  They are "beating" the game.  This genre was never supposed to be about "winning" it was supposed to be about living in a persistent online universe.

Unfortunately no game has done this since UO.  Most people I know played UO every day for 5-7 years.  Let me know if anyone you know that is playing WoW right now is still playing in 2012.

Just how MMORPGs are turning out. PvE becomes easy. PvP has been completely balanced so that a healer could solo against a fighter. Devs care more about making the casual players feel at home than actually making a good game. Don't you think casual gamers would like a hard core game. I've met plenty of casual gamers that hate how easy games are. I just tell them to play old games that are actually hardcore, and they have a tendency to love them. I have more casual gamer friends that play Baldurs Gate and Diablo than ones that play Halo.

Aaah, the wonderful sound of hardcores, gasping and crying for MMO Nirvanna.  I pray to any powers that can hear, please don't move the genre back to  the grotesqueries of EverQuest and the mentality that created it.  Vanguard tried to go back there and despite what people believe, it wasn't the bugs that screwed that game, it was the horrific hardcore gameplay.  EQ, DAoC and VGSoH are pefect examples of games that will never appeal to mainstream, they barely appeal to the niche market.  You hardcores had your time and now it's ours.

Originally posted by Vrazule

Aaah, the wonderful sound of hardcores, gasping and crying for MMO Nirvanna.  I pray to any powers that can hear, please don't move the genre back to  the grotesqueries of EverQuest and the mentality that created it.  Vanguard tried to go back there and despite what people believe, it wasn't the bugs that screwed that game, it was the horrific hardcore gameplay.  EQ, DAoC and VGSoH are pefect examples of games that will never appeal to mainstream, they barely appeal to the niche market.  You hardcores had your time and now it's ours.

If you like easy, that's fine.  Although, I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would possibly want to invest time into a game that offers little or no challenge.  But don't claim that VG failed because of its difficulty.  Oh, I'm sure some people may have been frustrated by a harder than average advancement (for the sake of arguement, I'm conceding this point even though I didn't think it was very difficult).  But that's not what did it in.  Bugs were part of it, but I think the biggest problem with it is that it was not finished on its release date.  That turned out to be the biggest problem I had.  I didn't start playing until about a month after release and I still reached the top in short order and felt like there was no place to go.  They opened up a 45+ zone where you were fighting birds.  They didn't have any good raid zones to keep the high level characters interested and when someone leaves, they very rarely come back.  I know I don't.

Originally posted by Vrazule

Aaah, the wonderful sound of hardcores, gasping and crying for MMO Nirvanna.  I pray to any powers that can hear, please don't move the genre back to  the grotesqueries of EverQuest and the mentality that created it.  Vanguard tried to go back there and despite what people believe, it wasn't the bugs that screwed that game, it was the horrific hardcore gameplay.  EQ, DAoC and VGSoH are pefect examples of games that will never appeal to mainstream, they barely appeal to the niche market.  You hardcores had your time and now it's ours.

You couldn't be more off based.  Paritcular into the downfall of VSoH.  The vast majority, will venture to say 80% or more of the MMORPG populace, will all agree we all want the flavor and fun EverQuest provided.   It is in my opinion that really, there is no MMO out that that is bad.  If WoW loses one million subscribers not only will it mean little but most likely that one million will have transitioned to other MMO's.  The servers out there that are lower populace are due to the fact that there are many more MMOs to choose from.  Each MMO appeals differently.

I come from playing the games you are trying to say screwed it all up.  "Main Stream" is not WoW.  That is the most popular MMO (and not even 1/3 of it's subscribers are based in the US of A) but it is not the best.  The best is what you enjoy.  The best is where you can plug in, make connections, and the world takes on a good feel for you. 

For people such as yourself who couldn't make it through the brutality of death in EQ, DAoC, or VGSoH go enjoy your other MMOs.  I am still waiting for a challenging MMO.  And while you do your repitition of clearing TK for the 80th time the rest of us will be playing where our heart is.  The mmo's we plug into.

Go elsewhere pest.

Originally posted by Cathalaode

 

Originally posted by Dameonk

I have noticed an alarming trend with the history of MMO games.  They keep getting easier and easier. 

Here's just a rundown of how MMO games have "progressed" over the years.

UO - Very hardcore.  Skills were hard to gain.  Many people played for over a year before the maxed out some of the harder skills.  If you died, you possibly lost all of your possessions.  If you didn't use a skill it would atrophy.  Monsters were difficult & money was hard to come by.

EQ - Pretty hardcore.  Leveling was very difficult.  The death penalty was very harsh, you could even lose your level if you died too many times.  If you died you retained all of your items, you just had to go loot them off of your corpse.  You were poor until end game.

SB - Kind of hardcore.  Leveling was easy, but PvP was open & rampant.  No looting the people you killed.  No real death penalty. Money was kind of hard to get.

DAoC - Not really hardcore.  Leveling was still difficult, but you couldn't lose a level if you died too many times.  Your items respawned with you and you could pray at your tombstone to get some experience back.  PvP was fun, but your enemies couldn't loot your body.  Money was pretty easy to get.

CoH - Mainstream.  Leveling was easy.  If you died you lost nothing.  No PvP (in the original game).  Money is easy to get.

EQ2 - More mainstream.  Levels are easy.  Pretty lax death penalty.  No PvP.  Abundance of cash.

WoW - Very mainstream.  Extremely easy to level.  Who cares about the death penalty? PvP only if you want to.  Easy to get money.

At this rate, 10 years from now you will just log into a game for the first time and get to choose which max level class you would like to play.

As someone already stated.  People want a game to be fun, but they have the wrong idea of what fun is. 

Is it fun to play an FPS game & everyone else dies as soon as the map starts?

Is it fun to play a racing game where all of the other cars stay at the starting line?

Is it fun to play football when everyone just gets out of your way and lets you score touchdown after touchdown?

I would hope that everyone's answers to these questions would be no.  So why is it that most gamers want an easy button for MMO games?  The truth is, they don't, they just think they do.  That's why the retention rate for MMO games today is so poor.  People level to 50 then go onto the next game.  They are "beating" the game.  This genre was never supposed to be about "winning" it was supposed to be about living in a persistent online universe.

Unfortunately no game has done this since UO.  Most people I know played UO every day for 5-7 years.  Let me know if anyone you know that is playing WoW right now is still playing in 2012.

You go girl! Games need to be more hardcore again. Not just MMOs. Regular RPGs as well. Take Morrowind and Oblivion for example. In Oblivion, from a low level you can't loot any uber items, can't face uber monsters, stealth is too easy, the 6 (10 with expansions) or so factions never conflict, you can run forever, combat is too easy, and everything levels up just as you do, and your journal tells you a summary of the quest and where to go. In Morrowind you could get uber items from a low level, there were monsters that could kill you easy for the earlier parts of the game, stealth was friggin' hard, the 15 (18 with expansions) factions actually fought each other and it was hard to max out all your factions, running cost stamina, combat required you to actually level your skills, and way less stuff leveled with you (that which did didn't even level as much), and the journal only told you what the NPCs had told you and a general description of your objective.

 

Just how MMORPGs are turning out. PvE becomes easy. PvP has been completely balanced so that a healer could solo against a fighter. Devs care more about making the casual players feel at home than actually making a good game. Don't you think casual gamers would like a hard core game. I've met plenty of casual gamers that hate how easy games are. I just tell them to play old games that are actually hardcore, and they have a tendency to love them. I have more casual gamer friends that play Baldurs Gate and Diablo than ones that play Halo.

awesome post you both

didnt realize morrowind is so much more different from oblivion. You can use the OOO mod to make it play like Morrowind though to remove the NPC scaling. I hate that feature kinda I can only assume they were trying to be like a true skill based game whereas nothing is supposed to 'level' in the first place

didnt play Morrowind so im just giving a possible explanation its jsut a wild guess

edit- oh maybe im a halfway i want max level as soon as possible in regardfs to PVP. so i like minor progression like Starport for PVP type games. For PVE coop games slow leveling is okay with me.

Originally posted by Cathalaode

 

Originally posted by Dameonk

I have noticed an alarming trend with the history of MMO games.  They keep getting easier and easier. 

Here's just a rundown of how MMO games have "progressed" over the years.

UO - Very hardcore.  Skills were hard to gain.  Many people played for over a year before the maxed out some of the harder skills.  If you died, you possibly lost all of your possessions.  If you didn't use a skill it would atrophy.  Monsters were difficult & money was hard to come by.

EQ - Pretty hardcore.  Leveling was very difficult.  The death penalty was very harsh, you could even lose your level if you died too many times.  If you died you retained all of your items, you just had to go loot them off of your corpse.  You were poor until end game.

SB - Kind of hardcore.  Leveling was easy, but PvP was open & rampant.  No looting the people you killed.  No real death penalty. Money was kind of hard to get.

DAoC - Not really hardcore.  Leveling was still difficult, but you couldn't lose a level if you died too many times.  Your items respawned with you and you could pray at your tombstone to get some experience back.  PvP was fun, but your enemies couldn't loot your body.  Money was pretty easy to get.

CoH - Mainstream.  Leveling was easy.  If you died you lost nothing.  No PvP (in the original game).  Money is easy to get.

EQ2 - More mainstream.  Levels are easy.  Pretty lax death penalty.  No PvP.  Abundance of cash.

WoW - Very mainstream.  Extremely easy to level.  Who cares about the death penalty? PvP only if you want to.  Easy to get money.

At this rate, 10 years from now you will just log into a game for the first time and get to choose which max level class you would like to play.

As someone already stated.  People want a game to be fun, but they have the wrong idea of what fun is. 

Is it fun to play an FPS game & everyone else dies as soon as the map starts?

Is it fun to play a racing game where all of the other cars stay at the starting line?

Is it fun to play football when everyone just gets out of your way and lets you score touchdown after touchdown?

I would hope that everyone's answers to these questions would be no.  So why is it that most gamers want an easy button for MMO games?  The truth is, they don't, they just think they do.  That's why the retention rate for MMO games today is so poor.  People level to 50 then go onto the next game.  They are "beating" the game.  This genre was never supposed to be about "winning" it was supposed to be about living in a persistent online universe.

Unfortunately no game has done this since UO.  Most people I know played UO every day for 5-7 years.  Let me know if anyone you know that is playing WoW right now is still playing in 2012.

You go girl! Games need to be more hardcore again. Not just MMOs. Regular RPGs as well. Take Morrowind and Oblivion for example. In Oblivion, from a low level you can't loot any uber items, can't face uber monsters, stealth is too easy, the 6 (10 with expansions) or so factions never conflict, you can run forever, combat is too easy, and everything levels up just as you do, and your journal tells you a summary of the quest and where to go. In Morrowind you could get uber items from a low level, there were monsters that could kill you easy for the earlier parts of the game, stealth was friggin' hard, the 15 (18 with expansions) factions actually fought each other and it was hard to max out all your factions, running cost stamina, combat required you to actually level your skills, and way less stuff leveled with you (that which did didn't even level as much), and the journal only told you what the NPCs had told you and a general description of your objective.

 

Just how MMORPGs are turning out. PvE becomes easy. PvP has been completely balanced so that a healer could solo against a fighter. Devs care more about making the casual players feel at home than actually making a good game. Don't you think casual gamers would like a hard core game. I've met plenty of casual gamers that hate how easy games are. I just tell them to play old games that are actually hardcore, and they have a tendency to love them. I have more casual gamer friends that play Baldurs Gate and Diablo than ones that play Halo.

Completely agree with the mix of these two responses.  Could not have been said better nor articulated.  Doesn't even need to be broken down or criticized further.  Very. Well. Said.

Originally posted by vajuras

 

Originally posted by Cathalaode

 

Originally posted by Dameonk

I have noticed an alarming trend with the history of MMO games.  They keep getting easier and easier. 

Here's just a rundown of how MMO games have "progressed" over the years.

UO - Very hardcore.  Skills were hard to gain.  Many people played for over a year before the maxed out some of the harder skills.  If you died, you possibly lost all of your possessions.  If you didn't use a skill it would atrophy.  Monsters were difficult & money was hard to come by.

EQ - Pretty hardcore.  Leveling was very difficult.  The death penalty was very harsh, you could even lose your level if you died too many times.  If you died you retained all of your items, you just had to go loot them off of your corpse.  You were poor until end game.

SB - Kind of hardcore.  Leveling was easy, but PvP was open & rampant.  No looting the people you killed.  No real death penalty. Money was kind of hard to get.

DAoC - Not really hardcore.  Leveling was still difficult, but you couldn't lose a level if you died too many times.  Your items respawned with you and you could pray at your tombstone to get some experience back.  PvP was fun, but your enemies couldn't loot your body.  Money was pretty easy to get.

CoH - Mainstream.  Leveling was easy.  If you died you lost nothing.  No PvP (in the original game).  Money is easy to get.

EQ2 - More mainstream.  Levels are easy.  Pretty lax death penalty.  No PvP.  Abundance of cash.

WoW - Very mainstream.  Extremely easy to level.  Who cares about the death penalty? PvP only if you want to.  Easy to get money.

At this rate, 10 years from now you will just log into a game for the first time and get to choose which max level class you would like to play.

As someone already stated.  People want a game to be fun, but they have the wrong idea of what fun is. 

Is it fun to play an FPS game & everyone else dies as soon as the map starts?

Is it fun to play a racing game where all of the other cars stay at the starting line?

Is it fun to play football when everyone just gets out of your way and lets you score touchdown after touchdown?

I would hope that everyone's answers to these questions would be no.  So why is it that most gamers want an easy button for MMO games?  The truth is, they don't, they just think they do.  That's why the retention rate for MMO games today is so poor.  People level to 50 then go onto the next game.  They are "beating" the game.  This genre was never supposed to be about "winning" it was supposed to be about living in a persistent online universe.

Unfortunately no game has done this since UO.  Most people I know played UO every day for 5-7 years.  Let me know if anyone you know that is playing WoW right now is still playing in 2012.

You go girl! Games need to be more hardcore again. Not just MMOs. Regular RPGs as well. Take Morrowind and Oblivion for example. In Oblivion, from a low level you can't loot any uber items, can't face uber monsters, stealth is too easy, the 6 (10 with expansions) or so factions never conflict, you can run forever, combat is too easy, and everything levels up just as you do, and your journal tells you a summary of the quest and where to go. In Morrowind you could get uber items from a low level, there were monsters that could kill you easy for the earlier parts of the game, stealth was friggin' hard, the 15 (18 with expansions) factions actually fought each other and it was hard to max out all your factions, running cost stamina, combat required you to actually level your skills, and way less stuff leveled with you (that which did didn't even level as much), and the journal only told you what the NPCs had told you and a general description of your objective.

 

Just how MMORPGs are turning out. PvE becomes easy. PvP has been completely balanced so that a healer could solo against a fighter. Devs care more about making the casual players feel at home than actually making a good game. Don't you think casual gamers would like a hard core game. I've met plenty of casual gamers that hate how easy games are. I just tell them to play old games that are actually hardcore, and they have a tendency to love them. I have more casual gamer friends that play Baldurs Gate and Diablo than ones that play Halo.

 

awesome post you both

didnt realize morrowind is so much more different from oblivion. You can use the OOO mod to make it play like Morrowind though to remove the NPC scaling. I hate that feature kinda I can only assume they were trying to be like a true skill based game whereas nothing is supposed to 'level' in the first place

didnt play Morrowind so im just giving a possible explanation its jsut a wild guess

 

edit- oh maybe im a halfway next gen player that prefers to max level as soon as possible in regardfs to PVP. so i like minor progression like Starport for PVP type games. For PVE coop games slow leveling is okay with me.

The only downsides to Morrowind are Incredibly hard stealth, ok graphics, and no radiant AI. So thieves are really hard to play. Get the game though. Get the full edition and you will not regret it. Bloodmoon is awesome. A little time travel will do you some good.

Originally posted by kerusso

Originally posted by Cathalaode

 

Originally posted by Dameonk

I have noticed an alarming trend with the history of MMO games.  They keep getting easier and easier. 

Here's just a rundown of how MMO games have "progressed" over the years.

UO - Very hardcore.  Skills were hard to gain.  Many people played for over a year before the maxed out some of the harder skills.  If you died, you possibly lost all of your possessions.  If you didn't use a skill it would atrophy.  Monsters were difficult & money was hard to come by.

EQ - Pretty hardcore.  Leveling was very difficult.  The death penalty was very harsh, you could even lose your level if you died too many times.  If you died you retained all of your items, you just had to go loot them off of your corpse.  You were poor until end game.

SB - Kind of hardcore.  Leveling was easy, but PvP was open & rampant.  No looting the people you killed.  No real death penalty. Money was kind of hard to get.

DAoC - Not really hardcore.  Leveling was still difficult, but you couldn't lose a level if you died too many times.  Your items respawned with you and you could pray at your tombstone to get some experience back.  PvP was fun, but your enemies couldn't loot your body.  Money was pretty easy to get.

CoH - Mainstream.  Leveling was easy.  If you died you lost nothing.  No PvP (in the original game).  Money is easy to get.

EQ2 - More mainstream.  Levels are easy.  Pretty lax death penalty.  No PvP.  Abundance of cash.

WoW - Very mainstream.  Extremely easy to level.  Who cares about the death penalty? PvP only if you want to.  Easy to get money.

At this rate, 10 years from now you will just log into a game for the first time and get to choose which max level class you would like to play.

As someone already stated.  People want a game to be fun, but they have the wrong idea of what fun is. 

Is it fun to play an FPS game & everyone else dies as soon as the map starts?

Is it fun to play a racing game where all of the other cars stay at the starting line?

Is it fun to play football when everyone just gets out of your way and lets you score touchdown after touchdown?

I would hope that everyone's answers to these questions would be no.  So why is it that most gamers want an easy button for MMO games?  The truth is, they don't, they just think they do.  That's why the retention rate for MMO games today is so poor.  People level to 50 then go onto the next game.  They are "beating" the game.  This genre was never supposed to be about "winning" it was supposed to be about living in a persistent online universe.

Unfortunately no game has done this since UO.  Most people I know played UO every day for 5-7 years.  Let me know if anyone you know that is playing WoW right now is still playing in 2012.

You go girl! Games need to be more hardcore again. Not just MMOs. Regular RPGs as well. Take Morrowind and Oblivion for example. In Oblivion, from a low level you can't loot any uber items, can't face uber monsters, stealth is too easy, the 6 (10 with expansions) or so factions never conflict, you can run forever, combat is too easy, and everything levels up just as you do, and your journal tells you a summary of the quest and where to go. In Morrowind you could get uber items from a low level, there were monsters that could kill you easy for the earlier parts of the game, stealth was friggin' hard, the 15 (18 with expansions) factions actually fought each other and it was hard to max out all your factions, running cost stamina, combat required you to actually level your skills, and way less stuff leveled with you (that which did didn't even level as much), and the journal only told you what the NPCs had told you and a general description of your objective.

 

Just how MMORPGs are turning out. PvE becomes easy. PvP has been completely balanced so that a healer could solo against a fighter. Devs care more about making the casual players feel at home than actually making a good game. Don't you think casual gamers would like a hard core game. I've met plenty of casual gamers that hate how easy games are. I just tell them to play old games that are actually hardcore, and they have a tendency to love them. I have more casual gamer friends that play Baldurs Gate and Diablo than ones that play Halo.

Completely agree with the mix of these two responses.  Could not have been said better nor articulated.  Doesn't even need to be broken down or criticized further.  Very. Well. Said.

Woohoo I'm one step closer to being an internet celebrity.

Originally posted by Cathalaode

Originally posted by kerusso

Originally posted by Cathalaode

 

Originally posted by Dameonk

I have noticed an alarming trend with the history of MMO games.  They keep getting easier and easier. 

Here's just a rundown of how MMO games have "progressed" over the years.

UO - Very hardcore.  Skills were hard to gain.  Many people played for over a year before the maxed out some of the harder skills.  If you died, you possibly lost all of your possessions.  If you didn't use a skill it would atrophy.  Monsters were difficult & money was hard to come by.

EQ - Pretty hardcore.  Leveling was very difficult.  The death penalty was very harsh, you could even lose your level if you died too many times.  If you died you retained all of your items, you just had to go loot them off of your corpse.  You were poor until end game.

SB - Kind of hardcore.  Leveling was easy, but PvP was open & rampant.  No looting the people you killed.  No real death penalty. Money was kind of hard to get.

DAoC - Not really hardcore.  Leveling was still difficult, but you couldn't lose a level if you died too many times.  Your items respawned with you and you could pray at your tombstone to get some experience back.  PvP was fun, but your enemies couldn't loot your body.  Money was pretty easy to get.

CoH - Mainstream.  Leveling was easy.  If you died you lost nothing.  No PvP (in the original game).  Money is easy to get.

EQ2 - More mainstream.  Levels are easy.  Pretty lax death penalty.  No PvP.  Abundance of cash.

WoW - Very mainstream.  Extremely easy to level.  Who cares about the death penalty? PvP only if you want to.  Easy to get money.

At this rate, 10 years from now you will just log into a game for the first time and get to choose which max level class you would like to play.

As someone already stated.  People want a game to be fun, but they have the wrong idea of what fun is. 

Is it fun to play an FPS game & everyone else dies as soon as the map starts?

Is it fun to play a racing game where all of the other cars stay at the starting line?

Is it fun to play football when everyone just gets out of your way and lets you score touchdown after touchdown?

I would hope that everyone's answers to these questions would be no.  So why is it that most gamers want an easy button for MMO games?  The truth is, they don't, they just think they do.  That's why the retention rate for MMO games today is so poor.  People level to 50 then go onto the next game.  They are "beating" the game.  This genre was never supposed to be about "winning" it was supposed to be about living in a persistent online universe.

Unfortunately no game has done this since UO.  Most people I know played UO every day for 5-7 years.  Let me know if anyone you know that is playing WoW right now is still playing in 2012.

You go girl! Games need to be more hardcore again. Not just MMOs. Regular RPGs as well. Take Morrowind and Oblivion for example. In Oblivion, from a low level you can't loot any uber items, can't face uber monsters, stealth is too easy, the 6 (10 with expansions) or so factions never conflict, you can run forever, combat is too easy, and everything levels up just as you do, and your journal tells you a summary of the quest and where to go. In Morrowind you could get uber items from a low level, there were monsters that could kill you easy for the earlier parts of the game, stealth was friggin' hard, the 15 (18 with expansions) factions actually fought each other and it was hard to max out all your factions, running cost stamina, combat required you to actually level your skills, and way less stuff leveled with you (that which did didn't even level as much), and the journal only told you what the NPCs had told you and a general description of your objective.

 

Just how MMORPGs are turning out. PvE becomes easy. PvP has been completely balanced so that a healer could solo against a fighter. Devs care more about making the casual players feel at home than actually making a good game. Don't you think casual gamers would like a hard core game. I've met plenty of casual gamers that hate how easy games are. I just tell them to play old games that are actually hardcore, and they have a tendency to love them. I have more casual gamer friends that play Baldurs Gate and Diablo than ones that play Halo.

Completely agree with the mix of these two responses.  Could not have been said better nor articulated.  Doesn't even need to be broken down or criticized further.  Very. Well. Said.

Woohoo I'm one step closer to being an internet celebrity.

Yes you are. I would also like to complement the both of you on very well thought out posts however I would like to add one game to Dameonk's list. Lineage II came out right around the same time as CoH, EQ2 and WoW. I played L2 and even though it was a grindfest I loved it and still think it was one of the best MMOs I've played. While I was playing L2 I tried CoH.....went back to L2. Then I tried EQ2.....went back to L2. Then I tried WoW......went back to L2. Why you ask did I go back to a game all those times even though it had the worst grind conceivable? One thing....Open PvP. It was the PvP system that made L2 fun and kept me playing for over 3 years.

L2 was the only game since UO that was built around the PvP system and not a PvE game with PvP content added. Sure L2 had many flaws but the fact that I could gank some ass for running his mouth made it more than bearable. Did I get ganked at times? Sure I did but I never whined about it, it just gave me incentive to work a little harder to get my revenge. This is why I go from game to game these days. Without Open PvP and the real risk of stepping out on your own in a harsh world games are just boring grinds.

Bren

Originally posted by Brenelael

 

Originally posted by Cathalaode

Originally posted by kerusso

Originally posted by Cathalaode

 

Originally posted by Dameonk

I have noticed an alarming trend with the history of MMO games.  They keep getting easier and easier. 

Here's just a rundown of how MMO games have "progressed" over the years.

UO - Very hardcore.  Skills were hard to gain.  Many people played for over a year before the maxed out some of the harder skills.  If you died, you possibly lost all of your possessions.  If you didn't use a skill it would atrophy.  Monsters were difficult & money was hard to come by.

EQ - Pretty hardcore.  Leveling was very difficult.  The death penalty was very harsh, you could even lose your level if you died too many times.  If you died you retained all of your items, you just had to go loot them off of your corpse.  You were poor until end game.

SB - Kind of hardcore.  Leveling was easy, but PvP was open & rampant.  No looting the people you killed.  No real death penalty. Money was kind of hard to get.

DAoC - Not really hardcore.  Leveling was still difficult, but you couldn't lose a level if you died too many times.  Your items respawned with you and you could pray at your tombstone to get some experience back.  PvP was fun, but your enemies couldn't loot your body.  Money was pretty easy to get.

CoH - Mainstream.  Leveling was easy.  If you died you lost nothing.  No PvP (in the original game).  Money is easy to get.

EQ2 - More mainstream.  Levels are easy.  Pretty lax death penalty.  No PvP.  Abundance of cash.

WoW - Very mainstream.  Extremely easy to level.  Who cares about the death penalty? PvP only if you want to.  Easy to get money.

At this rate, 10 years from now you will just log into a game for the first time and get to choose which max level class you would like to play.

As someone already stated.  People want a game to be fun, but they have the wrong idea of what fun is. 

Is it fun to play an FPS game & everyone else dies as soon as the map starts?

Is it fun to play a racing game where all of the other cars stay at the starting line?

Is it fun to play football when everyone just gets out of your way and lets you score touchdown after touchdown?

I would hope that everyone's answers to these questions would be no.  So why is it that most gamers want an easy button for MMO games?  The truth is, they don't, they just think they do.  That's why the retention rate for MMO games today is so poor.  People level to 50 then go onto the next game.  They are "beating" the game.  This genre was never supposed to be about "winning" it was supposed to be about living in a persistent online universe.

Unfortunately no game has done this since UO.  Most people I know played UO every day for 5-7 years.  Let me know if anyone you know that is playing WoW right now is still playing in 2012.

You go girl! Games need to be more hardcore again. Not just MMOs. Regular RPGs as well. Take Morrowind and Oblivion for example. In Oblivion, from a low level you can't loot any uber items, can't face uber monsters, stealth is too easy, the 6 (10 with expansions) or so factions never conflict, you can run forever, combat is too easy, and everything levels up just as you do, and your journal tells you a summary of the quest and where to go. In Morrowind you could get uber items from a low level, there were monsters that could kill you easy for the earlier parts of the game, stealth was friggin' hard, the 15 (18 with expansions) factions actually fought each other and it was hard to max out all your factions, running cost stamina, combat required you to actually level your skills, and way less stuff leveled with you (that which did didn't even level as much), and the journal only told you what the NPCs had told you and a general description of your objective.

 

Just how MMORPGs are turning out. PvE becomes easy. PvP has been completely balanced so that a healer could solo against a fighter. Devs care more about making the casual players feel at home than actually making a good game. Don't you think casual gamers would like a hard core game. I've met plenty of casual gamers that hate how easy games are. I just tell them to play old games that are actually hardcore, and they have a tendency to love them. I have more casual gamer friends that play Baldurs Gate and Diablo than ones that play Halo.

Completely agree with the mix of these two responses.  Could not have been said better nor articulated.  Doesn't even need to be broken down or criticized further.  Very. Well. Said.

Woohoo I'm one step closer to being an internet celebrity.

Yes you are. I would also like to complement the both of you on very well thought out posts however I would like to add one game to Dameonk's list. Lineage II came out right around the same time as CoH, EQ2 and WoW. I played L2 and even though it was a grindfest I loved it and still think it was one of the best MMOs I've played. While I was playing L2 I tried CoH.....went back to L2. Then I tried EQ2.....went back to L2. Then I tried WoW......went back to L2. Why you ask did I go back to a game all those times even though it had the worst grind conceivable? One thing....Open PvP. It was the PvP system that made L2 fun and kept me playing for over 3 years.

 

 

L2 was the only game since UO that was built around the PvP system and not a PvE game with PvP content added. Sure L2 had many flaws but the fact that I could gank some ass for running his mouth made it more than bearable. Did I get ganked at times? Sure I did but I never whined about it, it just gave me incentive to work a little harder to get my revenge. This is why I go from game to game these days. Without Open PvP and the real risk of stepping out on your own in a harsh world games are just boring grinds.

 

Bren

I never played L2 but any game that's focused on PvP is good in my book. What better way to interact with someone than cutting them up into little bits. It doesn't get more personal than that folks. Grinding I'm not so keen on though.