Originally posted by Soldarith  

 

If you have accessed the beta forums during the past 2.5-3 months there have been COUNTLESS very constructive threads, trying to give development feedback and ideas on what would make this game appeal to them. How many of those multi-page threads have had development replies? I could probably count on one hand and still have fingers left over.

 

You are forgetting one of the most fundamental and critical tasks for you to perform as a beta tester: feedback on whether or not you are having fun, feedback on what you dislike and why and how you feel it can improve, and concepts that you disagree with and recommend improvements. It has nothing to do with complaining or mouthing off and all to do with providing your perspective to the development staff to make the game more appealing and/or fun for you, the tester/gamer. Game development staves rely on this feedback from their testers. If they expected testers to only find bugs and stress test their products...they could end up with a bugless smooth product, yet be as boring as a red brick - Nobody wants this; development, investors, or players.

 

In order for a title to be successful and make players happy and development/investment lots of money a game must be a bug-free as possible and most of all be fun.

 

I cannot stress this enough to anyone: If you are considering to purchase this title, pre-order it and spend the whole $5 to figure out if it is what you are looking for.

 

 Soldarith, i could not agree with you more on some of your points, yes I did not mention fun, or some other points  you were making because I did not want to write up a long reply.  What you are saying is part of the beta testing process. Also, i do not expect the developers to reply, reason why, first i rather have them working on the game instead of replying back to every threads concerning bugs.  i pretty sure they have a system in place where they sort out the bugs into major and minor ones and they probably get thousands of threads, where they have to examine or duplicate to see if the bugs or info is valid.  It is a time consuming process in which I rather have them focus on.  The intent of my previous reply was just to remind people what Beta suppose to be about and that we have strong influence to assist the developers in correcting issues to the game and hopefully assist them in developing the game that we want, if not in the original release then in future release. But remember Beta is the vehicle that obtain the goal you mentioned "In order for a title to be successful and make players happy and development/investment lots of money a game must be a bug-free as possible and most of all be fun".

Have you played Tabula Rasa?  Sure its not as bug free as WoW, though no MMO is.  You should pay five bucks and play the beta before you spout your personal opinion, but we all know this site is just opinions.  Not a whole lot of fact on these pages.

Originally posted by Carufin

 

Originally posted by trillah

Name me one GOOD pvp game except daoc.

None, so yes warhammer will be revolutionary.

 

DAOC??  Please.

There are plenty of gankageddon games out there.  The best PvP I've seen thus far is the Battleground and Arena PvP in World of Warcraft.  You just can't touch that.  I'll be getting into the Lotro PvP shortly, and I'll update you.

But Warhammer is nothing but the same old pablum recycled.  It's all been done before, and as far as the Fantasy Sword and Sorcery genre goes, it is highly unlikely anything will ever surpass World of Warcraft.  They have that whole genre down cold and hard, and nobody will ever beat it.

Tabula Rasa represents a departure from that.  A well needed departure, that takes into account the changing landscape of the MMO gamespace, and the waning of the days of Raid Mentality.

If you want to wtfpwn people go duel them and get your happy fix that way.  PVP in WOW is a joke because in the end its meaningless, there is no consequence and for an online persistent world thats just a joke.   IF you like pvp on small scale so much go buy a game that does it right like Medal of Honor or something like that.   Ohh sorry thats right, skill is involved in that and you might not be able to manage that, instead you'd rather just play who has the best gear.  Sorry thats not pvp thats just epeening to make yourself feel good.

Warhammer and DAOC both have one thing incredibly important to PVP and thats the ability to affect the persistent online world.  If you can't understand that that is an important factor in a MMO PERSISTENT WORLD then you don't understand what a MMORPG is supposed to be.

I've been playing Tabula Rasa and to be blunt, its a test bed of MMO game theory that game designers have been talking about.  Unfortunately from my experiences in the game its a shallow game with no real depth and nothing to hold the interest of people beyond a few short months.  Perhaps that will change but from what I've seen of recent MMORPG games I doubt it.  I suspect in the end we're looking at another Auto Assault here just with a bigger name behind it.

In fact when I look at the list of features of the game I find it a heartrendingly short list, which is sad.  This genre really needs someone to step out and create a game with true scope and depth.   The original SWG attempted that sans content but sadly it was missing way to much polish I think for anyone to give it a fair review.

Originally posted by presti71

Thanks for the kid words! I know we all feel the same frustration. I hurts that much more because of the high expectations we all had for this game.

Many MMO/MMMORPG fans have been "burned out" of the fantasy genre and were looking for something new. Tabula Rasa was supposed to be that something new: a Sci-fi MMO/MMORPG. I was so looking forward to something completely new and original from the current crop of online games and once I realized TR was NOT it, I felt very let down.

Another big issue is technical. With Garriott and NCSOFT behind this game, I was expecting AT LEAST a professional and polished game that was as complete as possible by launch date.

Well, we are about a month from the launch date and TR is buggier and more unfinished than Vanguard was! Is this game REALLY coming out in a month?!

Also, all these claims about new content and features that are mysteriously going to appear on launch day are very suspect as well. Does anyone here familiar with MMO's and MMO Betas really believe that there is a bunch of "good" content made for this game that they have kept out of the Beta are are waiting to unleash on launch day?!!! When were they planning on testing all this "new" stuff that Garriott keeps promising will be in the "retail" version?

  

What I see tabula rasa as is a testbed for new theories about what a game should be.  Specifically from Garriot that I've seen him mention in interviews.

1.  travel time should not be an issue in MMO's  even at starting levels

2.  Simple to learn hard to master (well i've yet to see the "hard part" of the game)

3.  Voicechat is a given.

4.  NPC's should be seen to participate within the world (aka there's a war going on and you have npc troops there helping you)

5.  Tradition tank/healer/dps needs to be changed and new gameplay styles should be acceptable.

6.  Twitch should be a factor in player skill

7.  Player crafting

There's others but these are just some of the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

When you look at Tabula Rasa you can see how these issues have been addressed.  I'm just not sure beyond the travel time one how much has been accomplished to a degree that I would find fun.   I know I've done a couple of instances now and frankly those are just fragfests with everyone running around blowing everything away with no thought to tactics or teamwork.

Yeah, don't ya just hate when developers use that "Simple to learn, Hard to master" line for it's Pve?

I suspect (but can't say for all) that many find these MMO's not difficult to move through ( generalization but I kinda think it takes a certain kind of person to play these). These games aren't hard at all. It's not like playing an ultra hard single player game where you die hundred times before finally getting glory by completing a level.

The hard to master for me revolves around the pvp aspect of MMO culture (of which this one has already has it taking not the back burner...but the drawer under the oven), because usually to be any good you have to master something. Even then your only better than the players you can outsmart and beat which will undoubtedly change from match to match.

With that said, I'm starting to think that MMO's should have a scripted single player like type game for it's progression. Something clear cut yet vast. And to keep players Pvp, dungeons, expansions and other goodies. As it stands now, I just don't feel any of these games has any real story to them. Nothing that makes you feel like your apart of the bigger picture. That your hero counts towards the overall. None that is easy to piece together anyway.

Guild Wars got me thinking this way. Nice story line in that game, easy to follow and become attached to it. Didn't really become attached to my characters though because of the low level cap which is easy to reach, could reroll like a product line reproduction plant.

Anyhow, if upon launch, TR delivers on something like this then I will probably play. It would be nice to see where the "last of the humans" type scenario goes. If it has direction then that makes for awesome story telling.

And to go4broke,

Number 4 on your list is a awesome concept. Npc's doing their own raids. Would be sweet.

Originally posted by Sovren1

And to go4broke,

Number 4 on your list is a awesome concept. Npc's doing their own raids. Would be sweet.

I have been screaming about this for months.  Random NPC raids on settlements in any game is a must.  If players don't clear it out then the raid will establish itself and start to develop.  I have seen this in Jumpgate where a flux mothership would hit a random gate and block it.  It is a huge way to get strangers and non-guildies to interact with other players as everyone has a common cause.   Yet still we don't see it!

I hoped TR would have this at least.  Otherwise I might as well go to a show ground and shoot plastic ducks because its pretty much the same thing.

Originally posted by chryses

 

 

I have been screaming about this for months.  Random NPC raids on settlements in any game is a must.  If players don't clear it out then the raid will establish itself and start to develop.  I have seen this in Jumpgate where a flux mothership would hit a random gate and block it.  It is a huge way to get strangers and non-guildies to interact with other players as everyone has a common cause.   Yet still we don't see it!

I hoped TR would have this at least.  Otherwise I might as well go to a show ground and shoot plastic ducks because its pretty much the same thing.

TR has it all right, i and my sis with some other random guy were playing when very few people were online and there was this outpost that was under alien control. It took us almost an hour to take it back, i distracted the defense turrets while she ran in and cleared the base of all alien lifeforms and then reseting the control point (which turns off the turrets). Was pretty awesome, that's another reason why i'm still playing the game.

I want to like TR but I just can't get over the movement mechanics.  I hate that you can't turn, you only strafe, and you are in permanent "mouse look."  I'm sure people that play mostly FPS games don't mind this, but it drives me nuts!  I've played the first few missions and just can't make myself go back to it  It seemed to be an interesting game otherwise [though I only played the intro missions and 3-4 at the first base world].

Originally posted by uncus

I want to like TR but I just can't get over the movement mechanics.  I hate that you can't turn, you only strafe, and you are in permanent "mouse look."  I'm sure people that play mostly FPS games don't mind this, but it drives me nuts!  I've played the first few missions and just can't make myself go back to it  It seemed to be an interesting game otherwise [though I only played the intro missions and 3-4 at the first base world].

 Actually uncus, you  are stuck in a certain setting, i know it happen to me.. you have to make sure you move in and out of your mouse view, if you have an item open like yr backpack, make sure you close it.  and you should be able to move around, i think is the "~" key that you need to hit.

Originally posted by Carufin

Oh yes, Warhammer is breaking grand new territory.  It has totally new things, like Orcs, Elves, Dwarves...swords, shields, and medieval armor.  Revolutionary stuff like that, of the sort that's never been seen before.

It has the Orcs and stuff all aligned like a "Horde", and they fight against the good Humans and stuff who are all aligned like an "Alliance".

You can do big giant 40 man raids and stuff.  Now that's revolutionary.

Not like Tabula Rasa, which just has that same old song and dance stuff like Humans versus Aliens with advanced technology in a futuristic world.  You know, the same stuff everyone has been doing since Ultima Online.....

/sarcasm off

Ta-Ra WOULD be new if the character development system were even remotely original.

In this area Warhammer SEEMS to be bringing some new concept.

Ta-Ra quests are EXACTLY like wow, exclamation mark above npc head, accept-decline quest, rewards, destination npc, package to deliver, and new gear.

= BORING

Im not just saying that Ta-Ra is guilty of employing quests, like a generic gameplay element. No Ta-Ra provides players with quests EXACTLY like WoW did...

Sure quests and rpg's is a classic, but at least come up with your OWN way to give them. Besides in a MMO you feel the IMPACT of such system way more heavily than in a single player rpg, when following a story full time... so it's MORe mandatory for the developers to come up with an entirely original way to do quests.

My list is a list of things that Richard Garriot has done for Tabula Rasa, #4 is something he has done in the game.

Which is why I'm saying this game is playing like a technological showcase  or proof of concept and not really like a game.

I agree the interface is clunky, yes you can get "stuck" in certain modes  but more than that its just difficult to navigate, its not intuitive.  That in and of itself is bad.

There are lots of nice ideas in this game, I just don't think the overall package is coming together in a way that makes it a quality game.  For instance the laundry list of features on the main website of this game is just lacking, there isn't much depth.

Overall there just doesn't feel like there is much depth here.  When I log into WOW I get the feeling of a much larger game than I'm seeing, in Tabula Rasa I just don't get that feeling. 

There's just a lot that this game seems to be missing but primarily I'd call it lacking in depth.

Tabula Rasa may seem "revolutionary" and it might be... ON CONSOLES! but on the PC platform, it is below expected standards for an MMORPG.

Sorry, a change of setting isnt revolutionary, game play is. And quite frankly, the gameplay setup for Tabula Rasa is horribly. Its made for the two year old in everyone. Its dumbed down style of play may be great for consoles, and i see no problem with that, but on the PC, give me a break.

Warhammer also isnt revolutionary. Sorry but its a bunch of rehash, though upgraded from the old. The closest I can see anyone getting to revolutionary is with Age of Conan and not by much. It has AI that spawns armies that build towns, destroyable buildings, and live action. It hasnt been done that level before, which is nice.

Wow.. this thread makes me cry..

I really enjoy Tabula Rasa.  To sum it up, it really seriously feels like combining a fun coop FPS with a normal MMORPG. There are areas that certain level ranges congregate and move to the next big city type place, and I have to aim and fire at my enemies while collecting quests and crafting along the way. It is sheer fun.

With that being said, I respect the 'lack of depth' posters here, but otherwise people are just reading into things too much. I think live events and new logos discoveries will keep things pseudo-fresh for subscribers. If it isn't your cup of tea, then you'll know it pretty quickly. Those of us who do enjoy playing like this are quite happy with the direction of the game.

There are no orcs in Warhammer.

There are orks in Warhammer.   'Ere we goez!

:D

As for Tabula Rasa, I found it enjoyable enough to warrant purchase.  How long will I play?  Who knows, but I'm sure I can get enough enjoyment out of the initial purchase price to be worth it.   It's not a new home, it's not a new car.  Play it till the fun is gone then cancel, seems a simple enough concept to me - seems like some people want more than is even possible out of an MMO these days.

If the purchase price and monthly fee is a major financial descision in your life, you already have bad priorities and should perhaps concentrait on other things first.

Now if only it was based on Warhammer 40k...

Originally posted by Shar

If the purchase price and monthly fee is a major financial descision in your life, you already have bad priorities and should perhaps concentrait on other things first.

Well I think the problem stems more from paying for a , for lack of a better word, dumbed down product in relevance of game design.

Lets put it this way... say you sampled a really good microwave dinner. Its easy to make, and its kinda pricey for what it is, but you think it taste good. Well then by you continuing to purchase that product, you may be supporting the company that makes using cheaper and more harmful ingredients, or child labor or whatever. The idea is, that at the greater level, some feel that the "dumbing" down of gameplay mechanics for easy green something not worth supporting. Basically, if you smile everytime someone serves you a half cooked meal, they will think they can keep doing it, and others will copy that because at the corporate level, they will do the easy rout if the result is the same thing they desire, cash.

Now, again, Tabula Rasa is great for console style of play, but its sad that the mechanics are finding their way to a PC platform. God forbid the simplicity of it becomes popular less we all end up with pretty pieces of string 20 years from now instead of games.

Studies show the average console gamer prefers short games that are simple and action packed. That learning to play is frowned upon as being able to just pick up and play. That the game should cater to the gamer and not the other way around. This used to be the exact opposite of good PC game values.

Anyways, some will like TR some will not, but its just a tad insulting looking at the gameplay mechanics and being a "grown up". We have usually graduated from the nes two button controller play by now.

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Originally posted by presti71
Zeroxin brought up a good point1 he loves the game now that he has accepted that TR is NOT an MMO and does not play it as such.
The problem is: TR could be complete, bug free, and full of content and be the best game it is, However, TR is NOT being marketed and advertised for what game it IS!
TR is being shoved down our throats by Garriott and Co. as an MMO/MMORPG when it is clearly NOT either of those things.
They are going after the wrong audience and ignoring the audience they should be wooing.
look at all the pepole who hate this game, they are almost all MMO/MMORPG fans who thought it was that.
Look at the people who love it: many are casual Action-RPG/3rd person shooter fans who tried the Beta thinking the game was going to be an MMO/MMORPG and were pleasntly suprised to find out it was THEIR kind of game.
MMORPG/MMO fans are going to hate this game once they realized they have been tricked and...
...Casual action-RPG/shooter fans are going to love it when they finally realize it is for them, IF they ever realize it since Garriot and crew are completely ignoring those fans to try and get his old MMORPG fans.

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Originally posted by Soldarith
 
If you have accessed the beta forums during the past 2.5-3 months there have been COUNTLESS very constructive threads, trying to give development feedback and ideas on what would make this game appeal to them. How many of those multi-page threads have had development replies? I could probably count on one hand and still have fingers left over.

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True. The devs are nowhere to be seen. What is the point to give feedbacks if the devs don't care? I don't care writing on the board myself anymore, what is the point of it?

Again, I can only talk about GW's obvious superiority. Obviously Jeff Strain, unlike Gariott, is not a has-been and a total noob and he knows how to do his job. For a game with no monthly fee and no official forum the GW devs respond rather quickly to issues people have. So many suggestions posted on the boards ended up being ingame. When they introduced pet DP in PvE, there was a roar on the boards and it was taken out quite quickly. Some people had health problems related to GWEN red flashes which was making them quite uncomfortable recently and most of these flashes were taken out in a patch later. ETC. The list is just way too long to list here.

On the other hand, what do we get on the TR side? Nothing...

And no, I don't believe the game will get better in a month.

God i just saw this video and laughed so hard i cried.

http://www.gametrailers.com/game/4482.html 

Instead of being in the office working hard to make sure tabula rasa dosent flop"i dont think anything can stop that now" Mr gariott thinks his time and what i would guess funding from NC soft to fly around at low orbit to add more hype to the fire.Hell if your gonna have a train wreck you my as well load it up with some fireworks.

Originally posted by ciid

God i just saw this video and laughed so hard i cried.

http://www.gametrailers.com/game/4482.html 

Instead of being in the office working hard to make sure tabula rasa dosent flop"i dont think anything can stop that now" Mr gariott thinks his time and what i would guess funding from NC soft to fly around at low orbit to add more hype to the fire.Hell if your gonna have a train wreck you my as well load it up with some fireworks.

 

His being in the office certainly wouldn't help make the game better, unless he was there to hire writers and quest designers.  I sincerely doubt Mr. Garriott does much programming or writing himself these days.

 

 

 

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Originally posted by Soldarith
 
If you have accessed the beta forums during the past 2.5-3 months there have been COUNTLESS very constructive threads, trying to give development feedback and ideas on what would make this game appeal to them. How many of those multi-page threads have had development replies? I could probably count on one hand and still have fingers left over.

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True. The devs are nowhere to be seen. What is the point to give feedbacks if the devs don't care? I don't care writing on the board myself anymore, what is the point of it?

They've been like that ever since the beta started. I was there at around February or something like that. I started to post ideas and constructive criticism and all I got back was... nothing. Some testers took those things to interest, but most were too busy enjoying themselves and finding annoying bugs than looking at the game's design. And the devs were simply inexistent. After testing it for about three weeks I just left. No dev response, a minimum of tester dialogue, and a constant focus on (now I see why) things like making the Tutorial as cool as possible just weren't cutting it for me. At that time of "incompletion", I liked the idea of the game. Right now most people in this site are just confirming what I feared would happen. And sorry to those people who are saying that this game appeals to players who like shooters, but no, it doesn't. The system, true enough, is a hybrid, but it tilts a lot more towards a traditional MMO combat mechanic than being a "balance" of the two. Instead of mashing the number buttons, you're just mashing your mouse button for exactly the same effects. It's a very nice illusion, though.

For everyone else, just try it before you go buy it, while you have the chance. Otherwise it's a several months' wait for a free trial, and that's even more screwed up. Don't buy the hype, both negative and positive, but especially keep the developer hype at bay, 'cause they're just looking at their game and assigning unreal attributes of what they really wished it was, but unfortunately, isn't.