All I hear from the newly released MMO's and from people's MMO ideas is to "do away with the old style of button mashing combat" and introduce A NEW STYLE OF COMBAT!!!! OoOOoOOo!!!

Tabula Rasa, AoC, and several others are switching to another type of combat.
People have all these crazy ideas about how much they hate the old combat, but love their own ideas, which are just as dull or exciting.

I am able to take an abstract look on my opinion of how combat works, without my own twisted perception tainting the opinion. People say the "old style" is boring, but IMO it's not. Not only is it not boring, but it's not any different than any other style. The REASON people think it's "bad" or "old" or negative in some way, is because they are tired of the same-ol MMO, and associate the combat system with the MMO. The problem isn't the combat system though, it's everything else about the MMO which features 1-10, and sometimes even shift+1-10 and ctrl+1-10, 30 abilities plus the "Q autoattack and wait".

People will say that the "Press Q" (autoattack) and then press 1-5 on occassion is boring, lame, and dull. They do this by looking deep into it, disecting it, and looking at what it really is like. This results in them feeling it's dull because all you are doing is "1..................1.......................1........................2.............................1".

The simple fact is that people deceive themselves into thinking any other "fast-paced" combat is better, more complex, or positive.
If you do the same thing to ANY system, it ALSO becomes incredibly dull, boring, and lame. That's because EVERYTHING in theory sounds boring.

For example...

All a First Person Shooter combat is running around..........left click............left click...............hold left click..................left click................left click.................

All a third person combat is............left click.............left click.................1................left click...........left click...........right click................left click.............

All systems are like this when torn to pieces and looked at in theory.
In fact, the "Q" then "1......2........3........4......5" has the possiblity to be MORE complex, MORE fast-paced, and MORE exciting than any other combat system. This is because it uses more than just ONE click. Take a stereotypical FPS with no pistol, and no grenades. All you have is the gun. Add pistol and you get 2, add grenades and you get 1, add second weapon you get 3, add two special items and you get 4 and 5. That is still not as complex as the classic "old" style MMO.

With this twisted perspective that "the old is bad" and "the new will be more fun and exciting" is self-deception. Game developers are going to flaunt "their new, exciting combat system" as if it is anymore impressive than the old style. Game players will smirk like retards as they enjoy it.......for the first little bit. Then they will see that the reason MMO's are dull has absolutely NOTHING to do with the combat system, but the entire game itself.

I've played games where the classic, "slow" :press Q and wai":, then "press 1-5 every now and then" is actually FAST-PACED, action-packed, and incredibly fun. I've also played games where it's slow-paced.
I've played games where the action-packed "fast" slam the left-click repeatedly, is slow-paced and very "dull". I've also played games where it's action-packed and fast-paced.

My point is that the type of combat and the way it is handled is meaningless. Whether it's real-time turn-based like Everquest, "action packed" like a Shooter, or "fast-paced RPG" like Oblivion or a third person adventure, the actual pace of the combat, the "action", and the fun are all decided in other ways. All of these can be fun, and all can be boring. They can be fast-paced, or slow-paced. The actual fun of it is determined by two things: One's perception, and one's taste and patience

People think changing the fighting system from real-time turn-based to third-person adventure is going to make the MMO fun? I laugh at this, but also pity everyone who deceives themselves into thinking that actually matters, and pity those who cannot enjoy themselves in a "Q......1.......2.......3" when it DOES feel fast-paced and action-packed, solely because of their twisted perception.... Very sad.

To me, I love the combat no matter what, based on if it's fun or not. I love all the systems and don't care for any one in particular, because they are really all the same when it comes down to their theory.

Anyone who has played tabula rasa or Diablo 2 can attest to this.

The "action-packed" fps style fast-paced combat in Tabula Rasa is a click-fest. It basically is like Diablo 2, where you click each time to attack, resulting in constant-clicking. IMO this sucks, but can still be fun if done right. DDO did a similar combat system, which I liked. Tabala Rasa, I didn't. Other's taste may be the opposite, liking Tabala Rasa's, but not DDO's. This is a prime example of how the way the combat system is handled is irrelevant to the fun and feel of the combat and game.

I seriously wonder what is wrong with people's mental sight when they think changing the combat system to a click-fest or a third person adventure click-fest will save the MMO from being boring.

Like I said, anyone who has played some of the more action-packed classic-MMO's can attest that even the basic "autoattack, and "1.............2.................3.............1......2............3" can be just as fast-paced and exciting as any other combat system.

Take DAoC's PvP for example, or EQ2/Vanguard's combat system. It's the "classic" real-time turn-based, but can be very action-packed, ESPECIALLY in PvP.

This does not take into consideration personal opinion which is heavily one-sided.

A player who ONLY prefers FPS style combat, or a player who ONLY prefers real-time turn-based combat, will be affected completely differently based on the feel of the combat. These players are in the minority though, as most players would enjoy any combat system AS LONG AS it is fun and has the right feel.

This kind of thing goes into "genre taste" more than it does combat taste. Players who enjoy FPS games would enjoy a MMORPG that has FPS (Which would be more like a MMOFPS with RPG elements) and a RTS player would prefer an MMORTS with RPG elements, or an MMORPG with RTS style combat.

What I am speaking of is the AVERAGE gamer, who doesn't have an exact preference, or whose preference is not heavily one-sided, who can enjoy any TYPE of combat (real-time turnbased, third person, first person shooter, etc.)

=========================================================

There are several ways to handle combat, as we've seen in an MMO.

Turn-based FPS: Neocron 2
Birds eye view, autoattack, special abilities:  UO
Third Person Action w/ Abilities: Tabula Rasa, DDO
Real-time FPS: Oblivion, Dark Messiah of MM.
Autoattack + Special Abilities/Spells: EQ, DAoC, WoW --------> Even CoX.

That's right, City of Heroes/Villains has the exact same system as EQ, DAoC, WoW, Vanguard, and LOTR. Can you believe that? This is what I mean when I say how the FEEL and actual gameplay of the game is more important than the actual combat system used.

Agree, the actual combat mechanic is irrelevant as long as it works. One of the core issues with MMOs is they are combat centric. Everything put in revolves around creating more timesinks and that is usually based on combat.

Making an MMO RPG can be done, we just have the wrong batch of people making them. I hope some of you young, up and coming people interested in getting into the industry can do better then kill 10 rats and simplistic raids.

Right now all we have is "Fantasy Stat manager online".

Originally posted by Torak

Agree, the actual combat mechanic is irrelevant as long as it works. One of the core issues with MMOs is they are combat centric. Everything put in revolves around creating more timesinks and that is usually based on combat.

Making an MMO RPG can be done, we just have the wrong batch of people making them. I hope some of you young, up and coming people interested in getting into the industry can do better then kill 10 rats and simplistic raids.

Right now all we have is "Fantasy Stat manager online".

Exactly, you're 100% right.

Fantasy Stat Manager Online!

Thanks for the reply!

sorry but I think that is a load of rubbish, combat in a mmo is dull. I find combat in a fps about 20 x more exciting than that in a mmo.

Play Mount&Blade. The point is, a lot of people want a more interactive combat system, they want aiming, they want, that their skills influence their character and the combat. But well.. play Mount&Blade(or even Fable to some extent) to see the difference.. and it could be even better than those two examples.. with dodging like UT and so on. And of course, not everyone will like it more than the old system.

Originally posted by Apraxis

Play Mount&Blade. The point is, a lot of people want a more interactive combat system, they want aiming, they want, that their skills influence their character and the combat. But well.. play Mount&Blade(or even Fable to some extent) to see the difference.. and it could be even better than those two examples.. with dodging like UT and so on. And of course, not everyone will like it more than the old system.

 

 

No kidding, I for one am sick to death of combat scenarios where each and every move I make might as well be done from a script, where a bot macro with the AI of a single bacteria could take over for me. Are the newer combat systems in the specific examples you mentioned any better in this regard? I tend to think the answer is hell yes, no doubt about it, but in any case... Maybe, maybe not in the end, but non autoattack combat definitely has a much greater potential.

This is all true to a point. The combat is important. No question that there needs to be some inovation BUT combat alone does not make it an RPG. (as in MMORPG) In fact (and my point was) combat in regards to an RPG is irrelevant. Its not the primary focus of a good RPG. It is a game mechanic, thats it.

Combat is simply one small aspect of an RPG among many. MMOs totally rely on combat. (the same combat mechanic at that) Most new games even tie crafting into combat levels.

In the end, killing 10 rats is still killing 10 rats no matter how you are doing it, the core of it is hollow.

In someway You are right, because most combat systems are pretty much same. Sure there are different and some works little better than others.  The mechanic is pretty same allways. Most of combat problems isn't just the clicking, but enemy AI been so simple. There are how ever mmorpgs what are trying to make the combat more tactical, like enemies taking cover.

Also real problem isn't just that mmorpg are combat centric, but they are character development centric too.  So the problem is more like what are players doing inside the game? It's a lack of purpose and versatile actions to do something what make mmropgs booring. What mmorpgs need is other goals than "leveling" the character with simple combat . Players need game world where actions can actually affect the game world it self and where they can take alternative routes. Most current game worls and content are static with lack of choises and only real dynamic situation there is the player character. There is seen how ever little bit in mmorpgs development direction, where developers try to create alternative content and purposes.

Originally posted by nomadian

sorry but I think that is a load of rubbish, combat in a mmo is dull. I find combat in a fps about 20 x more exciting than that in a mmo.

Originally posted by Apraxis

Play Mount&Blade. The point is, a lot of people want a more interactive combat system, they want aiming, they want, that their skills influence their character and the combat. But well.. play Mount&Blade(or even Fable to some extent) to see the difference.. and it could be even better than those two examples.. with dodging like UT and so on. And of course, not everyone will like it more than the old system.

 

 

You don't have to tell me to play a game, I've played nearly every game in existence, with every type of combat system.
My point is that the old system is just as interactive as the others. When you break it down, there is little difference.

The only difference is when you have physics-based attacks, such as actually aiming the bow, and the arrow only hits if they are in the way (and they can dodge or move out of the way). But that makes the game into a FPS with RPG elements.

What you are saying is that people want an MMOFPS, with rpg elements. I do not think the majority want that, but that the majority would be okay with that and enjoy it, just like they would enjoy any other style.

As for those who find combat in an MMO dull and boring, please read my third post. Primarily this:

"This does not take into consideration personal opinion which is heavily one-sided.
A player who ONLY prefers FPS style combat, or a player who ONLY prefers real-time turn-based combat, will be affected completely differently based on the feel of the combat. These players are in the minority though, as most players would enjoy any combat system AS LONG AS it is fun and has the right feel."

If everyone else agreed with you that MMO's have dull and boring combat, with FPS being 20x more fun, then WoW would not be more popular than Counter-Strike.

It sounds like you two don't want an MMORPG, but a FPS.
Team Fortress 2 is coming out soon.

Originally posted by Aelfinn

Originally posted by Apraxis

Play Mount&Blade. The point is, a lot of people want a more interactive combat system, they want aiming, they want, that their skills influence their character and the combat. But well.. play Mount&Blade(or even Fable to some extent) to see the difference.. and it could be even better than those two examples.. with dodging like UT and so on. And of course, not everyone will like it more than the old system.

 

 

No kidding, I for one am sick to death of combat scenarios where each and every move I make might as well be done from a script, where a bot macro with the AI of a single bacteria could take over for me. Are the newer combat systems in the specific examples you mentioned any better in this regard? I tend to think the answer is hell yes, no doubt about it, but in any case... Maybe, maybe not in the end, but non autoattack combat definitely has a much greater potential.

What I am saying is that you only THINK this because of the WAY MMO's use the current system.

Please compare two MMO's that use the same system, but see how different they are played.
WoW vs City of Heroes/Villains.

If you've played CoX, you can see the MAJOR differences of having the same system, but a completely different style.

Saying that one combat system has greater potential than another is rather shortsighted. The amount of power in the ability to expand and improve an idea is greater than any one person can assume.

In some real-time turn based MMO's, you cannot have a bot macro, even with the smartest AI possible. If you think so, you've obviously never been in some system's PvP.

Of course, I won't have to say anything a few years after the Age of Conan - type MMO's release, when players begin to say "I'm tired of the old and boring third person action combat. When will they give us something new and exciting? This is so dull and boring."

The cycle will repeat itself as MMO's copy each other's combat system, only for players to get "bored" with ALL of them, which proves my point exactly that the exact system has nothing to do with anything. People will tend to think negative of things they are bored with, and positive of things yet to come. But when these things come, the people will eventually get bored with them and move on to the next fad, all while not understanding why their MMO isn't as fun as it could be, because afterall "THE COMBAT SYSTEM IS REALLY EXCITING!!!!!!!!!!!!".

Originally posted by Liliane

In someway You are right, because most combat systems are pretty much same. Sure there are different and some works little better than others.  The mechanic is pretty same allways. Most of combat problems isn't just the clicking, but enemy AI been so simple. There are how ever mmorpgs what are trying to make the combat more tactical, like enemies taking cover.

Also real problem isn't just that mmorpg are combat centric, but they are character development centric too.  So the problem is more like what are players doing inside the game? It's a lack of purpose and versatile actions to do something what make mmropgs booring. What mmorpgs need is other goals than "leveling" the character with simple combat . Players need game world where actions can actually affect the game world it self and where they can take alternative routes. Most current game worls and content are static with lack of choises and only real dynamic situation there is the player character. There is seen how ever little bit in mmorpgs development direction, where developers try to create alternative content and purposes.

Yes, you're absolutely right, those are a lot of the real problems facing mmorpg's. I look forward to Darkfall, but other than that I look forward to the future MMO that will break out of the box and give us something good.

I am NOT excited about Tabula Rasa, Age of Conan, Warhammer, or any other soon-to-be MMO. Regardless if they have WoW-combat or Age of Conan's third person adventure or fps-style, the game is still going to FEEL like a WoW clone, I guarantee. I'm sure Age of Conan's combat is going to be just as exciting as Everquest 1 when they ask you to kill 10 rats....but this time....YOU KILL 10 BY LEFT CLICKING 10 TIMES!!!!!!!!!!!! WOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My vision is clear and I can enjoy fun again, all thanks to this simplistic left-clicking!!! ACTION PACKAGERY!!!!!!! OH NOES, warhammer doesn't have FPS style BANG BAGN! OH NOES!

Who the fuck would want FPS style or Diablo style gameplay for a MMORPG (i can understand FPS for a MMOFPS obviously)?  I want something similar to a fighter, with different combos and what not, mixed with the current style of MMO combat.  Manual blocking and manual dodging also.  If you don't want combat to evolve, that's your problem.  I'm not saying the current combat systems are all boring, but they do get boring after a while.  Notice how good fighters never get dull (PvP)?  The first company to make a PvP MMO with that style of gameplay, done right,  will make a shitload of money.

and btw...  you're stressing this topic a little too much.  lol

Just because some games are unable to implant twitch based in MMO's properly does not make the whole concept boring.

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Originally posted by bleyzwun Who the fuck would want FPS style or Diablo style gameplay for a MMORPG (i can understand FPS for a MMOFPS obviously)?  I want something similar to a fighter, with different combos and what not, mixed with the current style of MMO combat.  Manual blocking and manual dodging also.  If you don't want combat to evolve, that's your problem.  I'm not saying the current combat systems are all boring, but they do get boring after a while.  Notice how good fighters never get dull (PvP)?  The first company to make a PvP MMO with that style of gameplay, done right,  will make a shitload of money.

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  Apparently everyone wants that.   I am NOT saying that they shouldn't evolve the current combat. That's not at all what I'm saying. Quite the opposite, it WILL evolve and become better and better, which is WHY people shouldn't throw it away. IMO, I loved the DDO way. It was a mixture of real-time turn-based classic-MMO, but with manual-dodging, manual-blocking, and manual-attacking. It was quite an impressive system, and much evolved, but still turn-based and "x20 slower than a FPS"    

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I'm not saying the current combat systems are all boring, but they do get boring after a while.

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One of my points was that ALL combat systems get boring after a while. The job isn't on the developer to completely change their already-release game, but for the player to learn how to bring life back into that which becomes dull. ALL things become dull, boring, or a loss in passion. It is the responsibility of the human being to keep all things alive, from the important things of marriage and family, to the small things of enjoying a game. That doesn't mean developers shouldn't change things around in their games, but it also doesn't mean they should. Developers should ALWAYS improve upon the game, whether it's enhancing a current combat system, or making a new one. Of all my points, the one I want to emphasize the most is that people and developers think changing the combat system will make the games fun, when they will remain just as hollow and dull as before.

What is a new and exciting combat system today will become a MUNDANE and boring combat system tomorrow. Eventually, it'll become DULL if people begin spreading by influence that it is dull. It is all about the player's MINDSET. You hear it's dull, you read it's dull, you are surrounded by "It's dull", and what was originaly a few newbies' opinion now becomes the standard norm.

 You hear all these player's ideas of how to make the "greatest and newest" MMO, and all you have is the exact same flawwed game design, but with a different combat system and different theme. The result will only be the exact same boring gameplay as before. Being able to have "exciting, fast-paced, action-oriented" combat won't solve the problems, because it isn't the problem.

Originally posted by Gameloading

Just because some games are unable to implant twitch based in MMO's properly does not make the whole concept boring.

There are plenty here who beg to differ. 

Originally posted by RonnyRulz

 

Originally posted by Gameloading

Just because some games are unable to implant twitch based in MMO's properly does not make the whole concept boring.

 

There are plenty here who beg to differ. 

The "problem" is that the old combat system is much more dependent on stats. You can't manually dodge, its based on numbers. You can't miss because of playerskill, its based on the numbers. In twitch based games, your skill as a player is much more important.

Originally posted by bleyzwun

and btw...  you're stressing this topic a little too much.  lol

Whatever you meant by that, get used to it, cause I stress all topics this much.

THE WORLD MUST KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!