Like the title of the post proposes, Does anyone else here that plays mmorpgs want something more tangible? What I mean, and I hope I don't convey this incorrectly, but more of an epic emotional quality to your games?

For example, the scene in FFVII when Aeris dies, or the opera event from FFIII. I know those aren't mmorpgs, but FFXI does do some of this with its cutscenes. I know alot here aren't big fans of the game but it is one of the defining elements that really makes it stand out above the crowd.

I bring this up, after watching E.T. and wondering at how a movie about an alien can be so touching(I'm a child of the 80s if you haven't figured it out yet), and watching Lord of the Rings, all 3, and loving the emotional pull of these films. I was just wondering when an mmorpg or new game was going to do the same thing and if anyone else looks for something like this.

Bah, I know this sounds corny, but I'm an old hopeless romantic, married with 3 boys, but sometimes I like some emotional reality other than anger or adrenalin rushes from a game.

Thoughts?

Yeah, I agree. I basically chalk it up to weak characterization. If they feel disconnected from their situation, world, and the player characters it seems likely the player is going to be less involved.

I think events are way more operatic in sandbox games.  There was no real moment i remember playing WoW, but in EvE i still remember the feeling of seeing our player owned station being destroyed by an enemy fleet so quickly after building it.  Just sitting there in a cargo ship watching a huge fleet of battleships firing on the station, unable to do anything except watch the fireworks as the station was destroyed.  That was of course a terrible loss but it had an operatic feel to it and i still think about it even though i'm no longer playing EvE for now.

This feeling is sorely lacking in most MMOs. At least the ones I've played.

Guild Wars does have the cut scenes and I felt that it gave more of an atmosphere than not. Of course, running through the same instances getting the same cut scenes does get tiresome.

I feel that we'd only really get the emotion and atmosphere by having more games that are sandbox. As it is, it's all the same stuff getting repeated over and over in a lot of the newere MMOs.

But who's to say things won't change with the even newer titles that are being released or are currently in the works.

Try having a good friend you've been grinding with for a year quit the game ... does the same thing you described.

Originally posted by elocke

Like the title of the post proposes, Does anyone else here that plays mmorpgs want something more tangible? What I mean, and I hope I don't convey this incorrectly, but more of an epic emotional quality to your games?

For example, the scene in FFVII when Aeris dies, or the opera event from FFIII. I know those aren't mmorpgs, but FFXI does do some of this with its cutscenes. I know alot here aren't big fans of the game but it is one of the defining elements that really makes it stand out above the crowd.

I bring this up, after watching E.T. and wondering at how a movie about an alien can be so touching(I'm a child of the 80s if you haven't figured it out yet), and watching Lord of the Rings, all 3, and loving the emotional pull of these films. I was just wondering when an mmorpg or new game was going to do the same thing and if anyone else looks for something like this.

Bah, I know this sounds corny, but I'm an old hopeless romantic, married with 3 boys, but sometimes I like some emotional reality other than anger or adrenalin rushes from a game.

Thoughts?

But all of that is more or less, is left out of MMO's. There are no real dramatic or emotional moments. There usually isn't any sort of cohesive story aside from kill 10 rats to make bob the farmer happy and character development is relegated to "stats" in MMO's only.

A this point in time, I don't think you will see anything like that in an MMO either, these jokers can hardly get their games to work as it is.

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Originally posted by Torak

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Originally posted by elocke

Like the title of the post proposes, Does anyone else here that plays mmorpgs want something more tangible? What I mean, and I hope I don't convey this incorrectly, but more of an epic emotional quality to your games?
For example, the scene in FFVII when Aeris dies, or the opera event from FFIII. I know those aren't mmorpgs, but FFXI does do some of this with its cutscenes. I know alot here aren't big fans of the game but it is one of the defining elements that really makes it stand out above the crowd.
I bring this up, after watching E.T. and wondering at how a movie about an alien can be so touching(I'm a child of the 80s if you haven't figured it out yet), and watching Lord of the Rings, all 3, and loving the emotional pull of these films. I was just wondering when an mmorpg or new game was going to do the same thing and if anyone else looks for something like this.
Bah, I know this sounds corny, but I'm an old hopeless romantic, married with 3 boys, but sometimes I like some emotional reality other than anger or adrenalin rushes from a game.
Thoughts?

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Well there is a massive difference between what you are referring to here and MMO's. All of what you are talking about is very strong Plot/story, characters and Drama all making you "care" about what is going on and what the characters are doing. Many single player games do this also. Try Vampire Bloodlines for an awesome experience or Knights of the Old Republic.
But all of that is more or less, is left out of MMO's. There are no real dramatic or emotional moments. There usually isn't any sort of cohesive story aside from kill 10 rats to make bob the farmer happy and character development is relegated to "stats" in MMO's only.
A this point in time, I don't think you will see anything like that in an MMO either, these jokers can hardly get their games to work as it is.

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Right I realize this, and only one mmorpg has done this right, and that is FFXI. What I want, personally is more of the massive storyline/cutscene epicness that I got from FFXI in new mmo's. I guess its like movies and books now, they pump out a ton, mostly for money, and every now and then you get the award winning kick butt oscar/hugo winners that could care less about money and make me enjoy them.

 "these jokers can hardly get their programs to work as it is..."

 But hey; people speak of immersion... in creative writing classes they speak of "suspension of disbelief" - which is pretty relative ina fantastic setting; but sustainable if the world is INTERNALLY CONSISTENT... ( I despise the excuse that being fantsay it doesn't need to make sense)...

  And myself I am STRONGLY of the belief that "showing the wires" is unwise in terms of immersion/ suspension...

  I might ask what drives games - and of course the answer varies for different players...

I think I'm SO COOL i'm going to quote myself:

All I can say is "What happened to the true MMORPG's?"

The problem with sandbox PVP drama is that I know its a game, everyone around me should know it too. When someone overreacts to being griefed or killed, its just creepy (the Cloudsong guy). There are people that'll run around slaughtering players who are relatively helpless in comparison because they're bored and its a game, not because they're sociopaths. Or they'll kill me for my stuff because its a game and they can get away with it, not because they're desperate outlaws. Player drama has always felt even more disconnected from the world than the alternatives.

Plus it isn't as if many MMORPGs are or are looking to be sandbox PVP experiences anyway.

For me the only mmorpg that filled that in was eve online.It was the only one in wich i felt at certain points i had achieved something or had a really "epic" battle.It gave me the feeling of being totally free and this is what i think the biggest difference between eve and other mmorpgs.It gave me a feeling of a reall world-be it futuristic-and that the players where the only ones who actually made the game what it was/is.

Originally posted by Thorbrand

All I can say is "What happened to the true MMORPG's?"

In a word: "Graphics"

For those of us that remember MOO and MUD, those games were purely player driven. In most cases, players created their own content and any GMs or DMs would usually be players themselves on other servers. MMORPGs used to be a format for other role-playing games like AD&D or GURPs games. I wouldn't say that the modern MMOs trace their lineage back to MOOs and MUDs so much as L.O.R.D.  Exitilus, Tradewars, and other BBS games that used simple ANSI graphics. Those were also grinding games where the goal was to rule x land or kill x boss, but most of the game was still get the best loot possible so that you can kill the other players and take their stuff. I know it sounds as if I am digressing a little, but the fact is that few people on this site have actually played a true online Role Playing game. RPGs were always content, story, and character driven.

In Fact, if you want to play one of the predecessors, try Legend of the Red Dragon:  (http://lord.nuklear.org/)

Originally posted by elocke

Bah, I know this sounds corny, but I'm an old hopeless romantic, married with 3 boys, but sometimes I like some emotional reality other than anger or adrenalin rushes from a game.

Thinking about it I have never got an adrenaline rush from most MMO's combat or anything in general. Maybe COH pushes me close  but I have to say I play MMO's to inspect and explore the world which is more about thought and insight. Probably why most MMO's have gone sour for me and I often stop before level cap. I'm simply not interested in leveling and once I have figured out a world (and usually there very static affairs) I don't see any reason to carry on.

I defiantly play first person shooters for adrenaline rushes though

Interesting, your reply makes me want to start a new thread on adrenaline rushes and what makes who get that rush. Personally, PVP in WoW always gives me a rush, specially when I'm being hit by 3 or more people and trying to survive, or carry that flag back to the base with a trail of enemies on my butt.

I'll make another post about this subject, to keep this one about emotional content.

Originally posted by Galaxiaceles

Try having a good friend you've been grinding with for a year quit the game ... does the same thing you described.

It's true. The movies mentioned in the OP pulled at us because it portrayed human interactions with consequence. The only parts of MMO's that can do this are the players themselves. Not only that, but interacting with the same players on a regular basis. Lord of the Rings is an excellent example of this, when you first meet all the characters you don't feel anything for them. You know nothing about them. It's not until 2 and a half hours of drawing you in through an orchestrated game with your mind were you able to shed a tear after a character dies.

People blame the game mechanics for the lack of emotion in MMO's today. But games don't have emotions, we do. Although game mechanics can restrict our interactions with other players, by requiring great amounts of concentration to play, little to no downtime and soloability.

I played EQ for 3-4 years and made lots of friends whom I still talk to today. No other MMO I have played I can say that about. So wait does this mean EQ is "teh bawls"? Not really. Everything has been "improved" on since those days in the newer MMOs. But they made some improvements in the wrong direction in my personal opinion. I play WoW now, have been for a year or so. But I still do not group with a specific person a lot, have in-game friends or anything really. Even the guilds I was in everyone was there for themselves.

In a nutshell... it's partly the game's fault... and partly our own.

Originally posted by Torak

 

Originally posted by elocke

Like the title of the post proposes, Does anyone else here that plays mmorpgs want something more tangible? What I mean, and I hope I don't convey this incorrectly, but more of an epic emotional quality to your games?

For example, the scene in FFVII when Aeris dies, or the opera event from FFIII. I know those aren't mmorpgs, but FFXI does do some of this with its cutscenes. I know alot here aren't big fans of the game but it is one of the defining elements that really makes it stand out above the crowd.

I bring this up, after watching E.T. and wondering at how a movie about an alien can be so touching(I'm a child of the 80s if you haven't figured it out yet), and watching Lord of the Rings, all 3, and loving the emotional pull of these films. I was just wondering when an mmorpg or new game was going to do the same thing and if anyone else looks for something like this.

Bah, I know this sounds corny, but I'm an old hopeless romantic, married with 3 boys, but sometimes I like some emotional reality other than anger or adrenalin rushes from a game.

Thoughts?

Well there is a massive difference between what you are referring to here and MMO's. All of what you are talking about is very strong Plot/story, characters and Drama all making you "care" about what is going on and what the characters are doing. Many single player games do this also. Try Vampire Bloodlines for an awesome experience or Knights of the Old Republic.

 

But all of that is more or less, is left out of MMO's. There are no real dramatic or emotional moments. There usually isn't any sort of cohesive story aside from kill 10 rats to make bob the farmer happy and character development is relegated to "stats" in MMO's only.

A this point in time, I don't think you will see anything like that in an MMO either, these jokers can hardly get their games to work as it is.

Would be nice if a mmo also implements this more then most do now.

The day an mmo can inspire true emotions is the day i just get an IV and plaster myself forever infront of it.

Truth is though I have had a moment like that on a certain old school mmo.

My buddy and I were playing perma death characters and we had a fun journey to minoc to vesper (now you know what game).

She spent about 80 hours on her char, me? 50 or so.

A pk comes out of the blue and we go to war, neither quite being gm in all we should be. She goes down, in real life I actually became quite enraged, much like if she (playing a male char, me a female...it was for lolz) were really a comrade who died.

Good times, I mopped the floor with mr.  Eric Da Red. The only time.....god he was good.

As an 80's child myself and a big fan of the games you mentioned I know exactly where you are coming from.

I think one of the main reasons this hasn't been explored more is the presence of other people. Story works great in single player because the game can put all its effort into pleasing one person. The story revolves around you, your actions and no one elses. But mmorpgs have to share. Whatever accomplishments or losses happen, they have already happened to hundreds of other players before you. Yes this is true for single player in the sense that other people have played it also, but you are cut off from them. Everyone playing together on the same server sort of removes that personal feeling.

In addition, hardly anyone behaves in game as the actual character would act. You can't get the feelings from these scenes that you want when you have got people in chat talking like drugged up monkeys. Obviously the purpose of RP servers is to recover from this sad reality, and get closer to that realism that is played out in single player experiences. Yes, they could lock people into an fmv or something to story tell so as to cut out other players, but its still not the same.

On an unrelated note, it has become almost standard practice to 'cheat' in mmorpgs now. by cheating I mean, looking up everything you have to do on the internet. If you can't figure it out in 5 seconds, someone looks it up. No one wants to experience things anymore.  Hell, people pay good money to *skip* the content and get right to the bloody end game. This is a pretty good sign that people don't care about much aside from being uber and showing off. There is no room for story and plot in a mindset like that. How many people even bother to read the quest descriptions? The number of people asking for quest advice in chat tells me... hardly anyone. 

If the playerbase starts showing that they are not quite so shallow, we may end up seeing more story and plot development in our multiplayer games. But I'm not holding my breath. I stick to my single player rpgs if I want a quality gaming experience, and jump online if I want to dink around in a social (but often shallow) environment.

Originally posted by badgerbadger

The INTERACTION of the players must BE the story. 

Yup, i agree, that is The solution - The Interactions Themselves Become The Story. 

and the stories of interactions between people over time is called HISTORY.

In brief, to accomplish such a feat a game mechanic has to be developed which will allow player actions to cause changes in the data elements that make up the gameworld. Some changes may be local and of low significance, some may ripple thru and affect things on a high global level.  Basically "cause and effect" has to be built into the game. 

Early design discussions by Richard Garriott about Ultima Online were along these lines on a very simple level when he talked about dynamic populations of wolves and rabbits - if players killed all the wolves in an area for pelts the rabbits could overpopulate and destroy local agriculture which could cause food shortages which could cause angry villagers to demand something be done etc. etc. - a whole chain of events may be Created by a simple act, and solutions to rectify those situations at various levels would also become available - hunt more rabbits, breed more wolves, plant more crops, pacify the peasants, and on and on.  Likewise if all the rabbits were killed the wolves might start coming into villages, killing sheep or people, disrupting caravans and trade, etc. and again a chain of events is Created and opportunities to counter those events.

Anyway all of this has been discussed almost constantly for a couple decades now in various disciplines of population modeling and AI, and almost nothing has been done on the game side of things because it's been far easier and far more profitable to pander to the eye-candy-and-action twits. 

Badgerbadger mentioned some good points I think. 

"Static stories are for single-player games".  Id agree, they just dont have the same "feel" in MMOs.  You can be the best story teller in the world, but if every player is running through the EXACT same story it loses its interest.  Maybe you have a fork in the road here or there, but youre still walking the same path as nearly every other player.  Theres nothing to define or develope your character and you have litle to no effect on the world around you.  Sure, you farmed 10 wolf hides so the town could make clothing, but that same npc and all the towns people are still exactly where and how you left them when you set out to do the quest.

"The INTERACTION of the players must BE the story."  Id agree with this also and I think this is why so many of us want more of a sandbox style game.  We need the tools and foundation that will allow us to have more meaningfull interaction and will allow us to leave our mark on the game world.  Being part of a player built/operated city is meaningfull.  Being part of a 100% player driven economy is meaningfull.  Fighting for the control of land/resources for you city is meaningfull.  All of these give you a place in the game world and help define your character.  This is dynamic.