http://www.gamemusketeers.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=323&Itemid=1

In no particular order.

Dungeons and Dragons - PnP version

Multi-User Dungeons

Islands of Kesmai

Neverwinter Nights (AOL Version)

The National Science Foundation NETwork

Meridian 59

Ultima Online

EverQuest

Final Fantasy XI

If you want an explanation for each choice then click on the above link. You might learn something like I did.

The list is invalid by its omission of WoW. Like it or not, it is the defacto standard for MMO at this moment.

Originally posted by ianubisi

The list is invalid by its omission of WoW. Like it or not, it is the defacto standard for MMO at this moment.

World of Warcraft has influenced several games over the last two years. Two years.  I don't know if you realize it, but the history of MMO development goes back further than two years.

Wow's actual impact on mmo design hasn't really been felt yet as an influencer of future mmos.

What wow offers that is different from its predecessors that could be cited as the being the originator for future imitators is the most involving custimization optoins on UIs, its expansion of the market in Europe and China, rest xp, the exclamation mark to highlight questgivers and its penetration of the Asian market barrring China.

So far noone since wow's release has been inclined to offer modfiable UIs anywhere close to wow's level. Rest xp has been adopted only by LOTRO. Growing the size of a market is a process that can never be imitated in any aspect of business. Penetrating a market is also something that can't be imitated. These two things are simply done if the markets accept your product as a whole.

The one thing that has been widely adopted is the !exclamation mark. A few games previewed so far have been noted to use a similar convention now and a couple of older games have revised themselves by adding this simple mechanic.

When anyone seriosuly talks about wow's impact they talk about its number of subscribers. That has little to do with how games will be developed in the future since trying to copy wow feature for feature is in essence copying every game wow was influenced by, except for two things which I noted already. Wow's subs also has had impact as raising cultural awareness which indirectly affects how games are made but since so many of the mechanics in wow can be found in other games the point's moot.

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Originally posted by mutantmagnet
Wow's actual impact on mmo design hasn't really been felt yet as an influencer of future mmos.

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That's an absurd statement. It's impact is total. It is the point of comparison for nearly every release since. It has entered the common culture as a norm, and has become a cultural icon which transcends just the niche group of gamers, let alone online gamers. It completely redefined the measure of success for any subscription-based game model.

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Originally posted by mutantmagnet

So far noone since wow's release has been inclined to offer modfiable UIs anywhere close to wow's level.

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DAOC did this before WoW, as did EQ. This is not a unique element to WoW.

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Originally posted by mutantmagnet

Rest xp has been adopted only by LOTRO.

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Also EQ2. Since EQ2 was released prior to WoW (by a month if I recall correctly) then WoW wouldn't be the first.

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Originally posted by mutantmagnet

When anyone seriosuly talks about wow's impact they talk about its number of subscribers.

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Well, you have chosen to make that its salient point. I don't focus on that rather important but narrowly-scoped fact.

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Originally posted by mutantmagnet
Wow's subs also has had impact as raising cultural awareness which indirectly affects how games are made but since so many of the mechanics in wow can be found in other games the point's moot.

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It's not moot. It's entirely relevant.

[quote]Originally posted by ianubisi
[b]
That's an absurd statement. It's impact is total. It is the point of comparison for nearly every release since. It has entered the common culture as a norm, and has become a cultural icon which transcends just the niche group of gamers, let alone online gamers. It completely redefined the measure of success for any subscription-based game model.
[/quote]

I've already made my point why this arguement doesn't work and we clearly don't agree what it means to be an influence to mmo gaming. As for the original article which prompted this thread the list was created because"he took a hard look at the forefathers of the modern day MMOG and decided that the deeds of yore should get their due Musketeer respect. "

Even as young as wow is it deserves respect for the size it achieved. THat in of itself doesn't directly translate into an impact on mmo gaming design.

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DAOC did this before WoW, as did EQ. This is not a unique element to WoW.

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Also EQ2. Since EQ2 was released prior to WoW (by a month if I recall correctly) then WoW wouldn't be the first.

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Your timeline is definately wrong here. EQ2 added rest xp in patch a year after wow launched. This same patch included a lot of changes to make EQ2 more like wow.

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Well, you have chosen to make that its salient point. I don't focus on that rather important but narrowly-scoped fact.

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That's why subscriber numbers is more of an indirect impact on game design and a very weak one at that.

Don't forget Gemstone on GEnie.....

And probably the old Infocom text games as well as far a dungeon design goes.

Oh yes, the Eye of the Beholder, Wizardry, and Might and Magic series as well.

Probably the internet which allowed MMOs to be created.  Also fantasy which has been around long before MMOs were created and was used in many single player RPGs.

Its surprising that Lineage/Lineage 2 has not been mentioned. There is probably no MMO around that has inspired so many other MMO projects

Originally posted by Gameloading

Its surprising that Lineage/Lineage 2 has not been mentioned. There is probably no MMO around that has inspired so many other MMO projects

That is true. It seems like there are more Lineage 2 clones than any other game around.

Originally posted by ianubisi

The list is invalid by its omission of WoW. Like it or not, it is the defacto standard for MMO at this moment.

Incorrect.

EQ and UO are the defacto standard for MMORPGs during their time, and at present time.

100k accounts still is the standard for a mmorpg to need, in order to re-coup its investment money, and then start turning in a true profit.

Diablo 1 should have been on that list, because it (as far as I know) it was the first "modern", successful, online rpg themed game . Simular to how M59 was the first successful modern mmorpg.

AC should have also been on that list. It was the first with seamless world technology - light years ahead of EQ, even though it came out roughly the same time as EQ.

Lineage 1 should have also been on that list. It came out during the time period of UO, and EQ. It showed there were OTHER SUCCESSFUL markets other than the western market. Which to this day remain untapped by western made mmorpgs. UO, and WoW have made some efforts to tap the Asian market aggressivly.

AO should have also been on that list. Litterally everything in AO revolutionized every mmorpg that came out after it, copying almost every feature in AO. Even mmorpgs released before AO, later copied things from AO.  WoW licks the bottom of the shoes that AO wears. WoW cloned almost every single feature in AO, the only change setting it in a medival themed setting. WoW who? WoW what? Diablo 1/2 + AO = WoW

AO to this day still has many incredible features yet to be copied by other mmorpgs.

FF11 should be NO where on that list but oh well.

PS the list was good but it forgot PCs. - hehe

Originally posted by mutantmagnet

 

What wow offers that is different from its predecessors that could be cited as the being the originator for future imitators is the most involving custimization optoins on UIs,

Wrong. WoW does not have the most customized UI.  cSWG holds this title.

its expansion of the market in Europe and China,

Wrong. WoW is not the first western made mmorpg to go after the Asian market. UO did it before WoW.

rest xp,

There is controversy over this ONE new feature WoW did introduce. It was to battle what is known as "catassing". Aka stop ultra-hardcore players from going through game content far tooo fast than was intended. Guess what? Did this work? Just because WoW was the first mmorpg to put this feature in, does not mean it worked. 

the exclamation mark to highlight questgivers

Holy cow, you have now shown how little mmorpg experience you have! Before anyone can compare features in many mmorpgs, one must play many different mmorpgs.  Every mmorpg vet knows WoW was not the first to have marked quest givers.

and its penetration of the Asian market barrring China.

That leaves first Korea, and somewhat Japan, and somewhat Russia. You are repeating yourself. Have you run out of features WoW supposivly introduced first? Again, UO was the first to go after the Asian market, no matter which Asian country you want to claim is not in Asia.

So far noone since wow's release has been inclined to offer modfiable UIs anywhere close to wow's level.

So far you have not increased your experience in playing many, many, other mmorpgs other than WoW. Drive only a Yugo, and you will think its the best car ever. AO's UI has plenty of mods that are player made. Some have even been officially adapted by Funcom.

Rest xp has been adopted only by LOTRO.

Rest xp, WoW's attempt to stop catassing, has at the lest, done nothing (players still blaze from level 1-50 in a week or less.) At the most is a failure. Why should other major mmorpgs add a feature that either does very little, or nothing?

Growing the size of a market is a process that can never be imitated in any aspect of business. Penetrating a market is also something that can't be imitated. These two things are simply done if the markets accept your product as a whole.

It can be effectivly argued that WoW simply copied successful features from other mmorpgs, and rpgs, which resulted in its growing the market more.

The one thing that has been widely adopted is the !exclamation mark. A few games previewed so far have been noted to use a similar convention now and a couple of older games have revised themselves by adding this simple mechanic.

When anyone seriosuly talks about wow's impact they talk about its number of subscribers. That has little to do with how games will be developed in the future since trying to copy wow feature for feature is in essence copying every game wow was influenced by, except for two things which I noted already. Wow's subs also has had impact as raising cultural awareness which indirectly affects how games are made but since so many of the mechanics in wow can be found in other games the point's moot.

95% of WoWs subs come from Battlenet. Battlenet's success is the result of Diablo 1, Diablo 2, etc... And THEIR success is the result of copying earlier games. One of the most notable, is a very little known rpg themed, dungeon style, game called ROGUE. Created by some college students around the late 1970's- early 1980's.

I think Asheron's Call should be included in that list.  It had a seamless world, contrasted with EQ.  That became a popular concept, even if not often duplicated.  It also was the first MMORPG to really cater to solo play, which I think made other companies more aware of the demand for the ability to solo in MMORPGs.  At that time, EQ was practically group only after about level 15. 

Originally posted by Pale_Fire

I think Asheron's Call should be included in that list.  It had a seamless world, contrasted with EQ.  That became a popular concept, even if not often duplicated.  It also was the first MMORPG to really cater to solo play, which I think made other companies more aware of the demand for the ability to solo in MMORPGs.  At that time, EQ was practically group only after about level 15. 

Just because a game is new or innovatibe doesn't mean it influences anything. Asherons Call was good and it was innovative for its time, but it really didn't influence other games or projects, nor did it do anything groundbreaking for the genre.

daggerfall would be nice to see...again

one day.

 future elder scrolls mmorpg?

nah

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Pale_Fire

I think Asheron's Call should be included in that list.  It had a seamless world, contrasted with EQ.  That became a popular concept, even if not often duplicated.  It also was the first MMORPG to really cater to solo play, which I think made other companies more aware of the demand for the ability to solo in MMORPGs.  At that time, EQ was practically group only after about level 15. 

Just because a game is new or innovatibe doesn't mean it influences anything. Asherons Call was good and it was innovative for its time, but it really didn't influence other games or projects, nor did it do anything groundbreaking for the genre.

I will say AC's 3rd person camera views were innovative and superior to what the market offered.  So much so, that AO changed their camera views after release after players clamored for a camera view like AC.

AC had a lot to offer that wasn't recognized then and, obviously, now.  I stand by my opinion.

Originally posted by Pale_Fire

 

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Pale_Fire

I think Asheron's Call should be included in that list.  It had a seamless world, contrasted with EQ.  That became a popular concept, even if not often duplicated.  It also was the first MMORPG to really cater to solo play, which I think made other companies more aware of the demand for the ability to solo in MMORPGs.  At that time, EQ was practically group only after about level 15. 

Just because a game is new or innovatibe doesn't mean it influences anything. Asherons Call was good and it was innovative for its time, but it really didn't influence other games or projects, nor did it do anything groundbreaking for the genre.

I disagree.  The ability to solo play was a new feature, when compared to the WoW of that time, EQ.  The 2nd generation MMORPGs, AO, DAOC learned from AC that they had better make solo content with their game or they'd miss out on an influential and sizable market segment.  Granted, solo play is not innovative, but it did influence other games by adding a content element that wasn't present in EQ, the reigning king of MMORPGs at the time. 

 

I will say AC's 3rd person camera views were innovative and superior to what the market offered.  So much so, that AO changed their camera views after release after players clamored for a camera view like AC.

AC had a lot to offer that wasn't recognized then and, obviously, now.  I stand by my opinion.

I concur, sir. AC was also more skill based then it was level base, which was the first game to do that as far as I can remember.

I think UO was skill based from what I remember.  I could be wrong on that, though.

Originally posted by ianubisi

 

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Originally posted by mutantmagnet
Wow's actual impact on mmo design hasn't really been felt yet as an influencer of future mmos.

---

 

That's an absurd statement. It's impact is total. It is the point of comparison for nearly every release since. It has entered the common culture as a norm, and has become a cultural icon which transcends just the niche group of gamers, let alone online gamers. It completely redefined the measure of success for any subscription-based game model.

 

 

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Originally posted by mutantmagnet

So far noone since wow's release has been inclined to offer modfiable UIs anywhere close to wow's level.

---

 

DAOC did this before WoW, as did EQ. This is not a unique element to WoW.

 

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Originally posted by mutantmagnet

Rest xp has been adopted only by LOTRO.

---

 

Also EQ2. Since EQ2 was released prior to WoW (by a month if I recall correctly) then WoW wouldn't be the first.

 

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Originally posted by mutantmagnet

When anyone seriosuly talks about wow's impact they talk about its number of subscribers.

---

 

Well, you have chosen to make that its salient point. I don't focus on that rather important but narrowly-scoped fact.

 

---

Originally posted by mutantmagnet
Wow's subs also has had impact as raising cultural awareness which indirectly affects how games are made but since so many of the mechanics in wow can be found in other games the point's moot.

---

 

It's not moot. It's entirely relevant.

2., and 3. you are supporting his point. i dont know if you intended to or not, but you are pointing out htat those 2 things arent something that WoW has contributed.

4. What do you focus on, when talking about WoW's impact? Subs is the only thing that really stands out.

5. You really arent listening to him. he's saying that since someone else did things first, you cant't credit WoW for it.

I think the OP's post was very well written, and intelligent, and your post comes off as driven by blind loyalty. Your arguements lack substance, and are little more than " you are wrong" statements. I hate using the term "fanboi", but if the shoe fits...