Hey all,

1st of all I want to make it clear that I do not like Instanced PvP. WoW showed that it makes PvP meaningless. It can be fun, but after 5 rounds of Instanced PvP, for me the fun is gone. You can argue that the Instanced PvP in WAR will be better, but it will never be as fun and meaningfull as World RvR.

Mythic is thinking about Cross server Instanced PvP to fix queue length. Well this is even worse then plain Instanced PvP, cause now Realm/Server pride is totally flushed down the toilet.

On the other hand, not making instances cross realm defeats the purpose of instances : to deliver fast instant action.

Therefore, my plea is to allow cross server queuing only if World RvR is preserved and preferably is the most important part of PvP. I do not want to discuss HOW one would make World RvR the most important, there are many options for this.

It is clear however, that when the most/best rewards are received from Instanced PvP, World RvR will die because people arel loot/RP/XP whores :p

There are some answers in interviews with Mythic staff that made me more optimistic then at the beginning of the announcement of instanced PvP. :
- Mythic holds Realm Pride in high regards
- Currently World RvR VP rewards are only slightly less then Instanced PvP VP rewards.
- I hope ( not sure here ) that to be able to go to a scenario, you have to cross World RvR. So I hope they dont do it like in WoW where you can get ported to all the instances from the capital.

I made a similar post on WarhammerAlliance, and some people had a few misconceptions about RvR :

- Instanced PvP is more casual then World RvR = not true, from my experience with WoW and DAoC, I can honestly say that World RvR is more casual friendly. And no, normally you dont have to wait long to join the zerg. Also high ranked, heavely geared players will cream the casuals in instanced PvP, in World RvR you can play in numbers, and be able to win, even with less gear or rank.

- It is worse to be outnumberd 2 to 1 in World PvP then to play in Instanced PvP = not true to me, this comes from a player that always played the underdog, and being outnumbered most of the time. Being outnumbered is not always bad either. ( more targets to shoot is potentionally more kills to gain :p ) And I choose for Realm Pride any day over getting equal numbers.

- Instanced PvP is more FUN then World RvR = May be true for the 1st 2 rounds of Instanced PvP, but unless you gain access to another Instance, this gets boring fast. World RvR is alot more dynamic and strategic, it can be a bit boring if you cant find the enemy fast enough, but when you eventually get to the enemy and win, it will be that more rewarding and fun.

- It takes longer to find a group in World RvR then in Instanced PvP = Not always true, when there is a Zerg there is a group to join. And when there is a good game, there will be plenty of people to zerg with.

- It is harder to make World RvR then it is to Instanced PvP = Not true I think, it takes less Dev time to make World RvR, because World RvR is something people make ( except for the basic framework ofc ). I think Instanced PvP takes alot more time to develop.

- Make different kinds of servers and let people choose = Not a good idea imho, more servers = more dev time + more scattered players around different server types. I believe in the EVE Online ideal = 1 World, 1 Server, 1 Nation, and I know Warhammer wont have that, but I would like to get as close to this ideal as possible.

To me Realm Pride ( and ofc my Guild, Ara Veritas ) and DAoC RvR was the one thing that elevated my DAoC gaming experience above ALL other gaming experiences I ever had. I truelly hope that Mythic can capture and preserve this in WAR, because that would be the only reason to keep playing. I truelly believe that World RvR is the key to this, but we will see how it goes.

Well, that was my rant, plea, call it what you like to EA Mythic and the Warhammer community about Realm Pride, Preservation of RvR and Instanced PvP.
Besides these issues, I think alot of cool stuff is comming to us in WAR, and I will definatly try it out.

greetz

I don't know what the fascination is with world pvp... i always thought it was boring and useless myself. Its pvp without a point. Without a real goal other than to just blindly kill stuff. And most of the time... its just a bunch of stronger people ganging up on a weaker solo individiual or someone engaged in combat with a mob. Is that really a more important part of the game?

Another point.. you specifically use the word 'zerg' in describing world pvp. Zerg was always used as a negative connotation. Its winning through numbers rather than skill. Can you explain why exactly zerging should be rewarded? Or why zerging is the most important type of pvp? Why should the easy win be more rewarded than the more difficult skilled win? Makes no sense to me.

Originally posted by siresper

I don't know what the fascination is with world pvp... i always thought it was boring and useless myself. Its pvp without a point. Without a real goal other than to just blindly kill stuff. And most of the time... its just a bunch of stronger people ganging up on a weaker solo individiual or someone engaged in combat with a mob. Is that really a more important part of the game?

Another point.. you specifically use the word 'zerg' in describing world pvp. Zerg was always used as a negative connotation. Its winning through numbers rather than skill. Can you explain why exactly zerging should be rewarded? Or why zerging is the most important type of pvp? Why should the easy win be more rewarded than the more difficult skilled win? Makes no sense to me.

And WoW showed how to ruin instanced PvP.  All they proved is that the way they did it made it pointless and useless and just a time sink.

I really don't understand why Mythic isn't just sticking with what worked from DAOC, which basically eliminated the need for cross server queuing no matter how small the server population.  Persistent battlegrounds, If WoW isnt' a big enough example of how and why people  get bored with mini game PVP then i don't know what is.

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Originally posted by siresper
I don't know what the fascination is with world pvp... i always thought it was boring and useless myself. Its pvp without a point. Without a real goal other than to just blindly kill stuff. And most of the time... its just a bunch of stronger people ganging up on a weaker solo individiual or someone engaged in combat with a mob. Is that really a more important part of the game?
Another point.. you specifically use the word 'zerg' in describing world pvp. Zerg was always used as a negative connotation. Its winning through numbers rather than skill. Can you explain why exactly zerging should be rewarded? Or why zerging is the most important type of pvp? Why should the easy win be more rewarded than the more difficult skilled win? Makes no sense to me.

---

It is hard to explain to someone who never played an RvR game. It is exactly because World PvP does have a point that it is more tactical and fun then Instanced PvP, honestly, if people want instanced PvP, why not play UT2004? or the upcomming UT3. I played UT and will play UT in the future, but when we talk about RvR, we dont talk about instances imho.

Sieging keeps with 100 of your closest friends against 50 of your worst enemies is great. What is even greater is defending a keep with 50 against hundreds of invaders, just long enough to get reinforcements and wipe the enemy :p

World RvR was about taking Keeps, Relics, or just plain killing eachother. Sometimes it was 16 vs 16, sometimes 100 VS 50. But there were scouts and they told people of the same realm what numbers the enemy had. So if there were too many, you would take your fight elsewhere.

Again, it is hard to explain Realm Pride and true RvR to someone who never played it.

A small example :

One time we were Raiding Cear Sidi, with a bunch of people. Suddenly our keeps start falling ( we know when it starts cause we have cpu controlled guild guards, and the guilds get messages when guards die ) So our guards fall, keeps starting to fall, and after a while it looks like they are going for our relic. Now what happens, our Sidi Raid is cancelled and everyone in the raid goes to the last keeps standing to defend, it fails, but we make a last stand in the Relic keep and reppel the enemy.

Now that is Realm Pride, imagine in WoW where a Guild stopping a Raid in Karazhan to help defend a raid on stormind? Exactly, never gonna happen. Cause there is no Realm Pride in WoW obviously.

Thing is, Mythic says they are creating an RvR game, they even say that they hold Realm Pride in high regard, so that means to me, and all the people that ever experienced RvR : World RvR with important objectives to conquer and defend. This means not Instanced PvP and especially not cross server queuing. However, I am not saying there should be not Instancing at all, and even cross server queuing can be in the game, however, World RvR should be worth more then Instanced PvP.

You also talk about zerging being a bad thing, well sometimes people feel the zerg sucks, so they make a strong 8 or 16 man group to kill smaller groups or loners or people cut off from the zerg. In return enemy 8 or 16 man elite groups try to attack these groups, because there are more RP's to get if you play with less people. Meanwhile the casual players have a refuge : the zerg.

I hope this illustrates a bit what we are fighting for.

Either way, WAR looks cool, I just hope it will have to longetivety of DAoC.

What really pleases me is that Mythic learns from many mistakes : Buffbots, ToA, etc. I just hope they dont pull the wrong conclusions from the imbalances in numbers in DAoC.
Because even playing the unbalanced ( in numbers ) World RvR of DAoC is better then anything WoW ever gave us in terms of Instanced PvP. This comes from a DAoC player that always played the underdog realm with the least numbers.

Greetz

 Bump for great justice!

/Agree with OP.   I hate WSG so much.   But i heard that DaOC was good, so thats a glimmer of hope, right?

I played DaoC for a year so I know RvR... perhaps I am not understanding the full definition of world pvp.

I think of world pvp as just wondering around the world and you kill enemies you happen upon. No rhyme or reason to it. DaoC had special instances you went to for doing the keep fighting.. and I wouldn't have considered that world pvp. Because its seperate from the world. It was persistant yes.. but still seperate.

If you define world pvp as including those kind of pvp sieges.. than we agree. But I wrote my last post under the impression you were just talking about the wandering around killing.

I agree world PvP with less controlled/fixed factors is a whole lot more enjoyable & fun than instanced battles with set conditions.

I like the idea of realm pride, although sadly it's something I have not experienced, WoW being the only factioned MMO I ever really got into & it's servers were nothing to take pride in, at least in my experience. No real incentive to progress, grinding to increase my rate of grinding, for what?

I'm hoping WAR has the fluid playability that WoW has (had for me) with incentive to want to keep playing. That is to say persistent struggles in which I can make a difference & work with others to achieve a mutually beneficial goal. An army which I feel a part of turning the war machine on in order to oppose the enemy, for glory & most of all a good time!

Originally posted by CyberWiz

Hey all,

1st of all I want to make it clear that I do not like Instanced PvP. WoW showed that it makes PvP meaningless. It can be fun, but after 5 rounds of Instanced PvP, for me the fun is gone. You can argue that the Instanced PvP in WAR will be better, but it will never be as fun and meaningfull as World RvR.

Mythic is thinking about Cross server Instanced PvP to fix queue length. Well this is even worse then plain Instanced PvP, cause now Realm/Server pride is totally flushed down the toilet.

On the other hand, not making instances cross realm defeats the purpose of instances : to deliver fast instant action.

Therefore, my plea is to allow cross server queuing only if World RvR is preserved and preferably is the most important part of PvP. I do not want to discuss HOW one would make World RvR the most important, there are many options for this.

It is clear however, that when the most/best rewards are received from Instanced PvP, World RvR will die because people arel loot/RP/XP whores :p

There are some answers in interviews with Mythic staff that made me more optimistic then at the beginning of the announcement of instanced PvP. :
- Mythic holds Realm Pride in high regards
- Currently World RvR VP rewards are only slightly less then Instanced PvP VP rewards.
- I hope ( not sure here ) that to be able to go to a scenario, you have to cross World RvR. So I hope they dont do it like in WoW where you can get ported to all the instances from the capital.

I made a similar post on WarhammerAlliance, and some people had a few misconceptions about RvR :

- Instanced PvP is more casual then World RvR = not true, from my experience with WoW and DAoC, I can honestly say that World RvR is more casual friendly. And no, normally you dont have to wait long to join the zerg. Also high ranked, heavely geared players will cream the casuals in instanced PvP, in World RvR you can play in numbers, and be able to win, even with less gear or rank.

- It is worse to be outnumberd 2 to 1 in World PvP then to play in Instanced PvP = not true to me, this comes from a player that always played the underdog, and being outnumbered most of the time. Being outnumbered is not always bad either. ( more targets to shoot is potentionally more kills to gain :p ) And I choose for Realm Pride any day over getting equal numbers.

- Instanced PvP is more FUN then World RvR = May be true for the 1st 2 rounds of Instanced PvP, but unless you gain access to another Instance, this gets boring fast. World RvR is alot more dynamic and strategic, it can be a bit boring if you cant find the enemy fast enough, but when you eventually get to the enemy and win, it will be that more rewarding and fun.

- It takes longer to find a group in World RvR then in Instanced PvP = Not always true, when there is a Zerg there is a group to join. And when there is a good game, there will be plenty of people to zerg with.

- It is harder to make World RvR then it is to Instanced PvP = Not true I think, it takes less Dev time to make World RvR, because World RvR is something people make ( except for the basic framework ofc ). I think Instanced PvP takes alot more time to develop.

- Make different kinds of servers and let people choose = Not a good idea imho, more servers = more dev time + more scattered players around different server types. I believe in the EVE Online ideal = 1 World, 1 Server, 1 Nation, and I know Warhammer wont have that, but I would like to get as close to this ideal as possible.

To me Realm Pride ( and ofc my Guild, Ara Veritas ) and DAoC RvR was the one thing that elevated my DAoC gaming experience above ALL other gaming experiences I ever had. I truelly hope that Mythic can capture and preserve this in WAR, because that would be the only reason to keep playing. I truelly believe that World RvR is the key to this, but we will see how it goes.

Well, that was my rant, plea, call it what you like to EA Mythic and the Warhammer community about Realm Pride, Preservation of RvR and Instanced PvP.
Besides these issues, I think alot of cool stuff is comming to us in WAR, and I will definatly try it out.

greetz

Two things I think you are not taking into account.

1) The Devs have stated they want RvR to open instanced PvP... Not all instances will be open at all times... pretty much think of it as momentum. RvR starts to tip the scale which opens up a scenario. The scenario will topple the scale or reset the balance. One flows into the other.

2) There are many many more scenarios to play. I think they said 30 at release... The repetitive argument does not really apply here. WoW has what now 5 scenarios? They had 3 scenarios for over a year... that did get old. Your talking about 10 times the number of scenarios with more to come after release.

Again... RvR opens up scenarios which then lead to more RvR... more scenarios... etc... until you capture a capital city which has now been confirmed will be opened and not instanced. This perception that you have to have one over the other needs to stop. Both compliment each other in this system and both will be important when working towards dominance over the other realms.