never played Guild Wars.... have played online chess.... have played WoW,  EQ, EQII, CoH..... etc etc... etc....

I will not judge any of the games in question here, just looking for clarification....

MMORPG...Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game... i don't even know what a corpg is (Cooperative Online Roleplaying Game) i suspect.....

that is, apparently what guildwars is..... great.... seems to me a world that is predominently instanced should not be an MMORPG as instancing reduces the Massive part... but in that context, isn't EQII a Kinda Large Online Role Playing Game because if no-one is in East Freeport, East Freeport isn't there... same as the CORPG game that is Guild Wars...... WoW is structured differently to allow that seamless and massive feel to it....because there is reduced loading or segregation, but i suspect it's the same way.... servers reboot, no one is in Orgrimmar, Orgrimmar isn't there until someone logs in, if everyone leaves..... Orgrimmar goes away, as part of the structure of saving on server side resources....

what about online chess is massive, to meet the first M condition of MMO? sure it's online, sure it's multiplayer especially in tournament settings or chat environments, but you're talking about a 16 x 16 grid... doesn't meet the first letter condition, seems to me....

just trying to learn here :)

MMO's are becoming MMOAG (Massively Multiplayer Action Games).

shoes and sandals. whats the difference? sandals you see your toes, shoes you dont. not a huge difference but usually people dont call sandals shoes.

frapacinos, capacinos, coffee all that (yes i know i probably mispelled them i dont like coffee). whats the difference? they are prepared different. you dont see people call all those drinks coffee but they are just simply coffee prepared differently.

anime and cartoons. whats the difference? anime is more detailed and uses a different method or somthing i dont know. tell an anime person his show is a cartoon. he will get mad.(usually they do anyways)

helio and a cell phone. whats the difference. it has myspace mobile lol.

you get the picture yet? its not a big deal just face the fact that guildwars is a corpg and games like counterstrike is a fps.

CORPG, SHMORPG... bah!  The devs can call them anything they like but they're all MMORPGs to me.  Even this thread.  Even my weekly online grocery shopping is an MMORPG! 

Originally posted by tunabun

 

Originally posted by Hexxeity

But the persistent bits still persist even when your character is not present (such as when he is in an instance).  That's what persistent means!

 

I will not argue that there are PARTS of the game that are not persistent -- obviously that's true.

The problem is that you don't consider what goes on in the outposts to be part of the game.  Apparently, the developers do.

(Also see a previous poster's comment about Factions.)

I don't believe you would strip the "persistent" designation from all games that include instancing, so you cannot take it from GW since GW does in fact have persistent attributes -- even though they are not adventuring spaces.

As I previously stated, if you are going to designate Guildwars as an MMO, which is fine, you must also give the same designation to, Online Chess, the majority of Online games similar to Chess's setup, e.g., Checkers, Backgammon, Poker, Dominoes, and so on.

I don't argue whether Guildwars is an MMO or not, only that you, others, and MMORPG.com must follow the same logic in placing "similar" by definition games on the list to the left.  If not, then a clear explanation as to why they won't be included should be made.

In online board games, the waiting room does NOT count as part of the game.  Since there are never more than 2 people actually PLAYING the same game of online chess, it is not Massively Multiplayer.  This is also why Diablo 2 does not count as an MMOG:  The waiting room is not part of the game.

Originally posted by Hexxeity

 

Here's your clear distinction:  The outposts DO count as part of the game.  You are in character, you can trade items, you can get quests and experience a part of the game's lore ONLY in outposts.  You cannot experience the game as a whole if you do not explore the outposts and talk to NPCs there.

 

In online board games, the waiting room does NOT count as part of the game.  Since there are never more than 2 people actually PLAYING the same game of online chess, it is not Massively Multiplayer.  This is also why Diablo 2 does not count as an MMOG:  The waiting room is not part of the game.

Your logic and comparison are flawed.  Firstly, I said the outposts are persistent, no one is arguing that, so it's a moot point.  Secondly, your character is merely an inhabitant, it is not a persistent part, it is merely saved, then reloaded, so again, another moot point.  Again, no one is arguing about Outposts, which are a tiny percentage of the game world.

The waiting room IS the outpost, it counts as part of the WORLD, as outposts do in Guildwars, just because chess has no quests or skills to obtain doesn't make the waiting room any less of an outpost for meeting and chatting, the only real persistent location.  You never have more than 16 people in Guildwars PLAYING the same game either, and if you want to talk about PvE only, it's 8, so that is far from massively multiplayer.  The fact that you are making a connection between the ability for people to take and return "solo" quests doesn't make outposts a mass playing area, merely a mass chat room with solo content.  The fact is outposts are the waiting rooms and the instances are the game rooms in GW, if you can't logically come to that conclusion then I am afraid your cognitive faculties aren't strong enough to even discuss what is and what isn't an MMO. 

Chess is actually more persistent, as each instance can stay open indefinitely, with or without the original players, all that is required is that someone is in the instance to keep it open.  On some level it is also more massive, as there is no limit to the number of players that can join and play, but this is an arguable conclusion.

It's simple, both games have a world, broken up into sections which in turn have a number of channels, each channel allowing for a defined amount of instances, instances where real play takes place and channels where mainly chat takes place.  The mere fact that a quest which will be "played out" in the instance can be taken by an individual does in no way assert that the channel is Multiplayer, just multichat with solo missions cued up for use in an instance.

Originally posted by ASmith84

shoes and sandals. whats the difference? sandals you see your toes, shoes you dont. not a huge difference but usually people dont call sandals shoes.

frapacinos, capacinos, coffee all that (yes i know i probably mispelled them i dont like coffee). whats the difference? they are prepared different. you dont see people call all those drinks coffee but they are just simply coffee prepared differently.

anime and cartoons. whats the difference? anime is more detailed and uses a different method or somthing i dont know. tell an anime person his show is a cartoon. he will get mad.(usually they do anyways)

helio and a cell phone. whats the difference. it has myspace mobile lol.

you get the picture yet? its not a big deal just face the fact that guildwars is a corpg and games like counterstrike is a fps.

since someone brought this thread back...lol...

Your comparisons are based on an assumption or rather your own definition--Not what the world defines it as... MMORPG is apparently being used as a much looser or general term ( it may have a specific term, but in some contexts, it has a general meaning) like footwear, or coffee-based drink... Or a better example being the multiple definition of man to represent people or the male humans... (I'm not going to comment on cartoons or animes... I think anime is just more specific, while cartoon embodies anything that's drawn in 2D)...

Edit: just to clarify that my argument is based on your literal words, because today's culture has define mmorpg in a particular way... However, most, if not all, communication have some implicit meanings (e.g. "Can I...?" versus "May I...?", or "This is..." versus "This should be...", or etc....)... and my posts definitely have implicit meanings...

Hmm, does any current "MMORPG's" really have a virtual world? They are more akin to Static worlds or Themepark worlds...not really a virtual world.

Hmm, I always thought MMORPG meant "Many Men Online RolePlaying Girls," go figure...

mmorpg means you have a world that you can INTERACT with alot of other people at the same time.The game world exist like a real world whether you are  online or not. this is why games like guild war, diablo2, dnd online , etc aren't mmorpgs. In those games you can only play with a lmited amount of players are thesame time.

if you consider games like guild war  or ddo mmorpgs, then you can say chess game or poker online games a mmorpg too.

why does it matter if you include those games as mmorpg since they are similar anyway? it is because one shouldn't need to pay a monthly fee to play those type of games since the cost to run those games are very low compare to a true mmorpg. yet people still  like to pay for games like ddo and call it a mmorpg.

mmorpg means massively multiplayer online roleplaying game

is guildwars is online? check

does guildwars have a massive amount of players? Check

can you roleplay in guildwars? Check

Seems like a mmorpg to me!

massively multiplayer if you think about it means you are playing with a massive amount of players together. people can interfere with your groups business on the game. on games like wow people can run around you when your questing or whatever in a group. yes i know dungeons are instant but that is only a small part of the game, im talkin about for the most part. noone can interfere with you on guildwars because its your own copy of the world except in outposts. so technically you are not playing with everyone most of the time on guildwars. so guildwars cannot be called a massively multiplayer now can it?

Like some others stated earlier, you are going off the definition from wikipedia...which anyone can edit at any time; therefore, this is not an official definition for an mmorpg, it is just what most people think of it as. I have heard in magazines and such...calling guild wars and mmorpg. You say that because most of the time your are in an instanced area...well this is true, but that does not matter.....because there is not officlal definition describing the exacts of what an mmorpg is...so you cannot officialy state what IS an mmorpg and what IS NOT one.

"Persistent world" does not mean that "everybody interacts with each other most of the time." It simply means that the world has a state independent of any single character, in other words, exactly what the OP's quoted definition said. In a context with thousands of people per server, or even merely hundreds, it is effectively impossible for "everybody" to interact with "each other" most of the time. At most one person can interact with a few other people simultaneously.

The term "massivley multiplayer" seems to imply large-scale interaction, or at least the possibility of unrestricted interaction, and may be what the OP was trying to get at. Instancing makes it more feasible for everbody in the instance to interact with everybody else in the instance, but instancing is a step away from "massive multiplayer". Instancing does not make a game non-massive all by itself, because it may be limited to specific situations or types of activities. For example, crafting activities in most MMOs are effectively single-player instances, because it is generally not possible for two crafters to interact simultaneously to produce the same crafted product. Even if multiplayer crafting is allowed, it is hard to imaging "combine stealing" being preferable to "instancing" during the crafting process. The "massive" aspect of crafting is the ability to make any crafted item available to any of a large number of players.

I'm not making any argument for or against instancing. I'm just trying to clarify the definitions of terms. I see too many arguments with people using over-generalized and incomplete "marketing-hype" definitions to attempt to prove their point. It's probably better to state exactly which activities in a specific game are "massively multiplayer", which are "group instanced", and which are "single-player." This would lead to a more accurate typology and would eliminate a lot of useless flaming.

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Originally posted by LackeyZero

no, it doesn't have to make complete sense, nor follow a general rule... That's why people call any game boring an asian grindfest even if it's in no way affiliated with anyone remotely asian... In other words, people pick and choose what they want to categorize even though those ideals aren't used for comparison between other things... (And when people think of video games, or computer games, hardly anyone thinks of chess as one, atleast not in the same sense...)
As far as this topic goes...so what... It should be classified as an mmorpg, because a corpg that's purely online is close enough... I don't want CORPG, LORPG, SORLE, DCKOS, KECJK, etc. popping up all over the place just for one game because of a small difference... Being specific only takes 2 more words, an "MMORPG without instances"...(Edit: and it doesn't change the fact that every place out there classifies it as an mmorpg)

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Originally posted by BuzWeaver

MMO's are becoming MMOAG (Massively Multiplayer Action Games).

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think about this.  the developers say that guildwars is a corpg (competitive online role playing game). now lets think about this. competitive obviously means goin against each other to win at something. what do you mostly do at guildwars? pvp right? pve is alright in guildwars but the real replayability is the pvp. now you mostly compete with your 4-12 with their 4-12 with the exception to hero battles right? is this everyone? is this considered massive? i dont think so. so corpg makes alot more sense than calling it a mmorpg. i think this should end it.

Originally posted by ASmith84

think about this.  the developers say that guildwars is a corpg (competitive online role playing game). now lets think about this. competitive obviously means goin against each other to win at something. what do you mostly do at guildwars? pvp right? pve is alright in guildwars but the real replayability is the pvp. now you mostly compete with your 4-12 with their 4-12 with the exception to hero battles right? is this everyone? is this considered massive? i dont think so. so corpg makes alot more sense than calling it a mmorpg. i think this should end it.

I would think its a Massively CORPG.

well if the devs don't consider it mmorpg then it isn't, not sure why there is even a debate on it, just go with what the devs said.  Hellgate London isn't an Mmorpg either right? believe the devs said it wasn't, but i can't seem to find my pcgamer.

my definition of an mmorpg would be:

anyone can go anywhere at any time with as many people as there are.

should be one server, (instances can be useful, but over used in most games), persistant world (you change it, it happens), and any number of people can be anywhere.

ok its 1AM so i think i butchered enough english...

Well I have read in magazines...where they call it an mmorpg...so I would still call it one.