ok let me explain ,

in eq1 one of my most fondest moments was being level 8 with a fullgroup and us trying to down bandits at a bandit camp

now adays i cant beg for a group below level 10 and sometimes lucky if i see groups by level 20  and thats in wow,lotro,vanguard,guildwars,eq2,eq 1 i havent tried low level game in a long time but my 65 druid rarely finds groups unless its for mm or wos only

i have pretty much resigned to the fact that ill be living in wow bg if i ever want a group and feel like im interacting with other folks,

now before flaming im not whining im just trying to understand why folks dont seek out grouping at lower levels to form friendships and ovwercome obstacles

is it game mechanics or something else  ?

i feel this is the reason alot of folks leave mmo moreso then anything is because they find it increasingly harder to find groups .

i still think two boxing and 3 boxing killed everquest because those good players never grouped with others to level and therefor the skills never got passed around , likewise when the warrior and the cleric was the same person when that person left eq he took not one but 2 real chars with him. 

I left my last two MMOs, in part, because it was so hard to find groups. I had a lvl 15 in COH and a 46 Wizard in EQ2. Given that I don't have a ton of time for MMOs, I had a hard time justifying spending most of my MMO time typing LFG...

Anti-socialness seems to be spreading through the web, people are in too much of a hurry to reach the maximum level than to enjoy the quest there on or read the quest text. People dont want to group with other people unless they really have to because they feel other people, new players or old slow them down. Guildwars is a MMO i played and man ive struggled at times to get people to do quests with me, sure ppl will help with missions sometimes, but just the little quests, its all henchies and hero's. I do know the feeling of frustration, when players leave groups mid way on missions (which can really screw mission groups up badly in GW).

Ive played wow also, and i think because there some many people, you notice how many bad attitude, selfish and abusive people there are out there, which is no different to real life, though i think the anonamity does seem to bring the worse out in people.

But people in games are influenced by everyday life, and its everyday life thans slowly going down the poop shoot. Man when i was at high school, like 10 yrs ago i never would of forced myself on a girl, or beat some kid up and record it on my mobile, it seems that swearing at teachers and making them cry is cool . people seem to be becoming more and more desensitized, i mean the ammount of times ive heard "rape" in WoW or other MMO's, using the word like it means nothing (aka desensitized) when there are ppl who's lives are ruin, though of course it  doesnt matter because it hasnt happened to you or a close family member or friend. General philosphy of most people, i dont give a crap as long as im not the one on the recieving end, its no wonder society is going down the poop shooter.

So anyhow what was the question? 

i know what you mean, i keep looking for a grouping oriented MMO like FFXI, but there are none- every MMO seems to be following the Anti-grouping path like WoW

The games now allow for a lot more soloing obviously.  Many people have done the group/raid thing and don't want to deal with the annoyances of having to distribute loot and get everyone together.  I must say that I never had trouble getting a deadmines or Wailing cavers group in WoW.  WoWs grouping is more based around dungeons then outside encounters though.  I think it's just that most people do like to have other people around, but don't like to group with them constantly.  I know thats how I feel a lot of the time these days. 

Sinent,  I agree wholeheartedly!  MMO's aren't what they used to be.  Nowdays it's like a single player console game with other people running around and a chat window.  The problem is game design.  EQ was designed to be hard and made you want to group to make the trip easier.  WoW and Lorto is the exact opposite,  making the level process smooth and easy at the consequence of killing social interaction and making it not-so memorable (for me).  

What they needed to do with WoW is make group XP big...really big so people actually have a reason to group besides getting loot.   I would say most people could do without the grind anyway.  The agrument of "learning your character while you grind"  is weak.  In EverQuest I knew my role as a druid by level 14.  Buff,  heal, dot, nuke, mild CC.  Only dumb players catch on slow when it comes to knowing your role in the game.

PlanetSide is a very under-appreciated game.

• There are no levels in the traditional sense.
• A new player can contribute just as much as a 3-year veteran.
• Its a very group-oriented game, even if you solo you'll most likely travel with an entire army.
• If you insist on being on your own, you can always take up sniping or camping vehicle bays in a MAX.
• There are many different roles, including non-combat certifications such as engineering and troop transport.
• The populations are more than high enough to support action all day every day.

I would say PlanetSide is one of the only games that I really wish would get more recognition than it currently has. If you're not afraid of an MMOFPS than I would say you should definitely give it a try. If you're lucky (and cheap) you may still have a chance at a 30 day free trial key although supplies were limited. If you have $20 to spend, the game can be found here: Direct 2 Drive. If you're have the patience, there are rumors of the PlanetSide Reserves starting up again "soon".

I think it has less to do with how the games are designed and more to do with the masses of ADD players we see in games nowadays. The people who played MMOGs in the early days appreciated the journey because they understood the concept of a virtual world.

what happened to mmo games?

Nothing.  It's not just this genre, but the whole gaming industry.  It's been horrible since the late 90s.  Maybe i'm just outgrowing them too.  

Well, EQ 1, when it went to raiding, opened a huge market with WoW.

WoW proved that the people with money want a fun game that is solo, small group oriented without a lot of raiding.  But they screwed WoW with bad PvP and repetitive raiding and grouping.

EQ 2 is, actually, the best of them all.

I'm guilty as charged!

I'm one of those people who don't like grouping, especially at lower levels. During lower levels I blame game mechanics, it's simply not efficient to group in most games-- thats based on the quickness to level. Sure, you can group... but I could level much quicker alone.

Later on in the game I will continue to try and do everything alone, the reason is pretty simple. Often times, when I do group, the people are idiots and do stupid things. I don't really understand why, its not as if I have some secret knowledge of the game [whatever game it might be] so there's no reason why they can't be around my level of gaming capacity. I think I get stuck with some younger kids (I'm only 21 myself) and/or the casual players who feel it acceptable to go AFK for long periods of time without consideration to others.

I like to raid and do other things that often require a group-- you know, end game content. To achieve this I join a guild and fill all my groups with as many guild members as I can.

Oh, and to achieve more groups make sure you choose a very high populated server.

I think the problem stems from people not knowing what they want in a game. When MMOs first started it was all about grouping and making friends. Then people bashed games like FFXI because there is little to no solo content. Even newer games get it...people complain in DDO because you can't do much alone. People complained that they wanted more solo content, and now games are adding it and thus taking away the need to group. Even if you prefer grouping, you don't most times because its easier and perfectly acceptable not to.

and now you have people that want to complain that there are character classes in games. Yeah, just let every character be able to do everything....If that happens get ready to see grouping die for good because this eliminates the need for them and its also kills a very important part of MMORPGs the role-playing part.

yes i have to admit planetside is way underrated i go there for my sci fi  fix:)  i havent played in about a year though

by the way if you like planetside give  www.projectvisitor.com a look it used to be called 10-six it was hella fun

Originally posted by observer

what happened to mmo games?

Nothing.  It's not just this genre, but the whole gaming industry.  It's been horrible since the late 90s.  Maybe i'm just outgrowing them too.  

Maybe (I'm just guessing) you are focusing to hard on MMO's. Other game genres have put out some great stuff in the last few years. I could list but I have no idea what you like. MMOs are failing hard.

Well, thats fine if you join the game and don't know anybody. You could try and get to know some in game, but then you would be waiting for them to log-in. Otherwise you would be spending 99.99% of your time doing LFG shoutouts, get to the point of vbecomming really bored at some stage and then start doing LFG shouts every 10 seconds which peeves off other players and they then mute you. Thus your left doing LFg shouts that nobody can here.

Me, my first experiance with group orientated only game was EQ2 at launch, gave it 3 months and then left. I got sick of havign an LFG tag over my head and doing LFG shouts (though i did them once every 5-10 minutes) and out of teh 3 mths i was in the game i reckon i must have spent at least 95-98% LFG'ing. Talk about being absolutly bored out of my skull, peeved off, and wondering why in the blue hell i was paying to play a naff game. That was a long 3 months i can tell you.

I left to see what WoW was like and told the 2 friends i was leaving for WoW. They didnt want me to go, but hell i went anyways. After 2yrs i left WoW (almost around 10 mths ago now). I left because i had a falling out with the guild i was in (after leadership of it had changed) it became friends in, anyone else out of raids to make room for a friend of the leadership. After leaving the guild i left the game roughly 2 weeks later.

I then gave EQ2, a 3rd outing, teh 2nd outing almost had me, but Live Update 19 ruined the whole thing for me, so i never did re-subscribe then. The 3rd outing was at teh back end of last year, the game then had improved alot, however grouping and finding players was still hard to do as not many were around (all in the higher level area's or area's i did not have, only having a limited choice, game plus 1st expansion). After 2/3 months i left to give a new release a go.

I bought vanguard, and that was a mistake, probably the biggest mistake i have ever made purchasing a game, i just about saw out the month's play that came with the game before promptly leaving, many in the guild said wait, but i think most have now ditched it. Will require something other than said game fix's to bring a fair ammount of lost players back to take another look (as i stated in a VG post somewhere), i wont go back if the patch's fixed everything next month, why, because it should never have even been released in such a poor quality as it did. The word conned comes to mind, purchasing what i would call an very early beta game version that was being passed off as a retail release).

From there i got into Lotro beta, though this had some bugs, it was by far no where near a quarter as what VG had. However to me the game was lacking in gameplay, i found myself being bored at times, and some days not even bothered to log-in at all. However i may have purchased the game still if the price was right for the monthly cost, unfortunatly it was not, they set it too high.

Now here i am, taken the 10 day burning crusade trial up to see what has happened with WoW and to catch up on people i knew, most of which have also left the game, or jumped servers. Others don't even want to talk to me (fair enough), and others who do talk but are just giving the game the months subscription out (after which they may or may not resubscribe again). BC, may be a good expansion for some things, but the main deterance is making everything that was ever before it obsolete and not even worth going to, not even with an enchanter to dish the items. Now there is another expansion in the works, will this do what BC did and wipe all content made before it out again? only time will tell.

I do not know what i will do after the 10 day trial runs out, will i subscribe for a month and see how things go, or will i go and give EQ2 another run. Though at the moment i really do not like SoE at all (not after VG).

Other games i am watching are WAR, AoC, PotBS and GaHRR. 2 of which have aquired the evil SoE tag, so i WILL NOT be running out to purchase these 2 at release, i will however be awaiting reviews and player feedback for at least the 1st month or so, then it should shed some light on them. AoC, after see'ing a couple of released game movie's, they movement and gamplay looked very choppy (much like you were having constant A1 lag), so that was somewhat offputting to me. WAR so far looks at being the next big mmo to be released, however i have not seen any in game movie's of this yet, only the way it has been put down in writing about the game catch's you. Yes, that and actual gameplay are 2 differant things, the game may not live upto expectations (but what game ever does?).

well as of tonite after reviewing options im going back to everquest and sticking it out there, tried eq2 but it just isnt the same although it is a beautiful game and seems like might be fun i just couldnt find anyone to group with there  and im n ot goijng another 65 levels to be bored i can do 75 with eq1 and know ill find something to do

I think questing and instancing killed grouping in mmos. I loved EQ and DAOC camelot's dungeons were you would group with a few strangers and kill a few mobs for a couple hours. I can't stand "WOW"  style questing we need to go back to the open world, truely immersive mmo experience.

I avoid groups because I don't understand a lot of the short hand that players use to communicate.

Plus I worry about getting in a group and saying the wrong thing or some player being rude to me and spoiling the game for me.

i agree, i played daoc and wow too and i liked the grinding in a good group much more then questing alone.  Devs plz dont listen to the noobs and make a good community game again.

CoH and CoV still have many low level groups.  Far more then high levels groups...

I doesn't contribute much to low levels group ever, I focus on the endgame and getting there...and I want it to be grouping...thereby why I loooove CoV.

See, if the players doesn't see something as FUN, they don't do it.  Leveling up a character in the game you mention isn't fun, so they don't do it.  As simple as that.  Explaining why raiding/PvP enforcement ruins it and destroy the low level game, as well as the high level game...is something I did for years, and obviously I am not good at explaining cause peoples are still not getting it.

BEST GROUPERS HAVE TO BE GROUPERS.  And if the best noobs can be noobs in noobs levels, then all the better.  Making the guy geared in raid-loot better in a level 5 dungeon then a level 5 who actually cares about this zone, this is wrong and ruining the game.