I've beaten up the following games: Diablo II, Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided, EverQuest II, World of Warcraft, and Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. I must say, after delving into the end-game for each of these entities, Diablo II (pre-expansion) & Star Wars Galaxies (pre-nge) had the best item loot system due to their random generated statistics. I remember my collection of rare gothic bows in Diablo II. Although the bows were of the same type and tier, they were worlds apart; some hit harder, fired faster, weighed less, and contained some type of bonus ability or proc. Yes, the item appearances were limited, but the random generated stats gave them a unique & personal aura.

For those that are not familiar with this type of looting system, allow me to explain! When you defeat your foe, he or she has the chance of dropping an item. When you pickup that item, the stats are randomly rolled based on the systems percentages per item. Suppose you find a dagger off one of the specter chieftains in Age of Conan. That dagger could have a greater chance of rolling a speed bonus as opposed to a dmg or proc bonus. However, it's still possible to get that dream dagger with high speed, dmg, and proc. It would be like winning the item lottery. Thats what was so fun about Diablo II & Star Wars Galaxies. You knew that what you had was one of a kind. A system like this makes any grind much less arduous due to the excitement of a rare item drop.

The following picture is to show how one type of item can have different stats, thus, rendering that item more fun and unique:

In EverQuest II,World of Warcraft, and Vanguard, everyone looked exactly the same. Everyone was decked out in quested soulbound items. Those who didn't have the time to complete the grouped quests or stockpile “dkp” wore identical crafted gear such as ebon & xegonite. Crafted gear also had set stats. In the early EverQuest II days, you knew this person was wielding the Screaming Mace or was wearing the Legendary Journeyman's Boots. As if it wasn't bad enough that everyone looked alike, they had the exact same gear. This was a major turnoff. World of Warcraft and Vanguard share the same clonish characteristics.

Simply adding in more gear will not help. There will always be some quested bow that is better for a ranger, thus, every ranger will work towards obtaining that bow.

The following are screenshots that show multiples of the same item on the npc brokers:

I've always agreed with this, AC also had a random loot generator and it made finding loot more interesting. Unfortunatly they didnt have a action house back then. You had to catch the item in the vendor at just the right time.

I agree wholeheartedly, this was exactly what turned me off of EQII and kept me from even playing WoW.  At least in SWG, even the crafted items could vary in stats, although pre-CU the fact that composite armor was the be all end all of armors was annoying.

When I play an MMO, I dont have to be the most powerful of whatever class I play, I just like to be able to do what needs to be done, and look unique while doing it.

Sorry, but I disagree. It's hard enough in most games to scrimp and save for the gear you need - or take the time to craft it - or take the time/chance to raid for it. But then you add in variable stats? That means it would take more time to find the specific weapon you needed in a store, that means your crafted item that you spent lots of time/money on may turn out to suck, that adds even more chance to a RB situation (on top of the chance that he may not even drop a weapon!) No thanks. I know I'd just end up with some crappy, bottom-of-the-line staff that had + physical damage on it (when I was playing a caster.)

I agree that it would be nice for people to look different and not all to have the same gear. However, I don't see how your suggestion would help.

The best way for a game to allow customization in armor/weapons would be to have base armor/weapons and have the players add the stats through questing, crafting or raiding. So you'd have your choice of many different looks and styles of armor in the game, some harder to get than others, but all with very basic stats. Then, the player would add the desired stats to it. For instance in crafting, you could have a 'recipe' for a magic spell that would add a certain percentage of critical hit bonus to your weapon. You would have to collect ingredients for this spell. Perhaps for more advanced type bonuses, you may have to kill a raidboss to get a certain drop that would allow you to enhance your weapon. Rather than epic bosses dropping the best weapons/armor in the game, they could drop items that would allow you to enchant your weapons/armor with the best stats. In return for finishing a quest successfully, an NPC could offer to 'bless' your armor with your choice of bonus to your weapon (limited choice, of course.) These quests could be repeatable if you decide to get new gear. Items dropped from RBs might be recoverable from the gear with a certain amount of effort. That way you're not stuck with one piece of armor if you get the exact bonuses you want but later get sick of the look.

However, I know of no game that really has this system implemented. Lineage II sort of implemented something like this with the last update - but it is limited (weapons only) and doesn't allow you to really use whatever weapons you want based on looks.

I would love to play a game where I could get the stats I wanted. Normally, I hate crafting, but I think this would make it more fun for me. It certainly would be a lot more fun than having 15 Sword of Dooms sitting in my inventory and having to read all the stats and figure out which is the best one and which ones belong in the trash.

Originally posted by Listof

Sorry, but I disagree. It's hard enough in most games to scrimp and save for the gear you need - or take the time to craft it - or take the time/chance to raid for it. But then you add in variable stats? That means it would take more time to find the specific weapon you needed in a store, that means your crafted item that you spent lots of time/money on may turn out to suck, that adds even more chance to a RB situation (on top of the chance that he may not even drop a weapon!) No thanks. I know I'd just end up with some crappy, bottom-of-the-line staff that had + physical damage on it (when I was playing a caster.)

I agree that it would be nice for people to look different and not all to have the same gear. However, I don't see how your suggestion would help.

The best way for a game to allow customization in armor/weapons would be to have base armor/weapons and have the players add the stats through questing, crafting or raiding. So you'd have your choice of many different looks and styles of armor in the game, some harder to get than others, but all with very basic stats. Then, the player would add the desired stats to it. For instance in crafting, you could have a 'recipe' for a magic spell that would add a certain percentage of critical hit bonus to your weapon. You would have to collect ingredients for this spell. Perhaps for more advanced type bonuses, you may have to kill a raidboss to get a certain drop that would allow you to enhance your weapon. Rather than epic bosses dropping the best weapons/armor in the game, they could drop items that would allow you to enchant your weapons/armor with the best stats. In return for finishing a quest successfully, an NPC could offer to 'bless' your armor with your choice of bonus to your weapon (limited choice, of course.) These quests could be repeatable if you decide to get new gear. Items dropped from RBs might be recoverable from the gear with a certain amount of effort. That way you're not stuck with one piece of armor if you get the exact bonuses you want but later get sick of the look.

However, I know of no game that really has this system implemented. Lineage II sort of implemented something like this with the last update - but it is limited (weapons only) and doesn't allow you to really use whatever weapons you want based on looks.

I would love to play a game where I could get the stats I wanted. Normally, I hate crafting, but I think this would make it more fun for me. It certainly would be a lot more fun than having 15 Sword of Dooms sitting in my inventory and having to read all the stats and figure out which is the best one and which ones belong in the trash.

Good post! However, if one was able to choose their own stats, we would still end up with the same old cookie cutter weapons; everyone would go for more damage and speed. Also, I don't think every item should be roll generated. I just think having items such as these adds more flare to the game. As far as crafting, Star Wars Galaxies wins hands down. Your damage output etc derives from the selected resources used to craft that weapon. Each minable resource had so many different variables that played imoprtant rolls in crafting. You could really tell the good crafters from the novice. It was awesome.

These are competing design theories. Each has its merits. I think most MMO designers opt for fixed statistics because it's easier for them to balance the game.

Personally, I prefer the Diablo-esque style of random stat generation. I am a loot whore...I don't care about how it looks, I don't care about how efficient it is, I only care about having as much of the shiny pixels spill out from the guts of a mob I've just killed as possible. The more the better, and the more varied they are the better.

I disagree.
I think one of the good things about WoW was that you knew what items to expect, and it gave you a feeling of having a realistic goal to achieve.

I also prefer the diablo style loot generation with slightly randomized stats and whatnot. AC did this perfectly, not one piece of armor would be the same.

Originally posted by scratchpup

I disagree.
I think one of the good things about WoW was that you knew what items to expect, and it gave you a feeling of having a realistic goal to achieve.

There are other ways to give people this feeling, like through trophy items, titles, skills, or quests.

I started with AC and beating a very special boss not only gave you experience and what not for the quest, but also a title. Sometimes you would even get a great item and display it at your house.

Sets shouldn't be required for this feeling, and to be honest, all they do is make everyone clones, as the topic indicates. To me, that gives even less desire to get the pieces.

To each his own I suppose.

they do it to save time and money but tbh everyone notices it and its really dodgy :(

I agree with the OP.  Dark age of camelot had a version of this, they called the items ROG (random object generated).  The majority of the ROG stuff was actually kinda crap compared to the best static named loot.  But once in awhile you would run across something that was so insanely perfect for your toon it would make you cry.  Like a gem with 25 dexterity and +10 dex cap for my runemaster.  Something that couldnt be crafted, and no static loot could match.  It just made things alot more interesting IMO.  Putting together a template of gear in DAOC was more of an art than a science.  So much more fun than the newest batch of games.  I hope Mythic puts random generated items into Warhammer.

I couldn't agree more, and I've posted here about this same topic myself. In fact in Asheron's Call 1 you would come back from a few hours hunting loaded down with all kinds of random generated lewt. Some of it you would sell to NPC vendors (which as mentioned, other players would then have a crack at very cheap), some you would 'salvage' for raw materials, and if you were lucky - there would also be something to go into your own horde or worth trying to sell on the IGN forums (or in later years, the Marketplace). It was a helluva lot of fun, and it made the grind bearable.

I think most developers are afraid of their economies getting out of control with random generated loot, and of course there's crafted and quest loot problems to consider as well. But all these obstacles can be overcome if you just do things like include drops which crafters can use themselves (for example rare items which crafters can use to boost stats even further), and by making quest loot items truly unique in some way. This all does let a games economy run wild, but then barter just takes over in many aspects instead of gold. And anything's better than having a 'planned economy'. Think about it, how many people would really have fun living in North Korea?

Another huge factor in my mind - that is related to having fun loot - is having many different damage and protection types. Something you never see in MMORPG's anymore. It was a real challenge to collect different armor sets and weapons for use against various mob types in AC1 - and then of course it required a lot of thought to put together a good 'General Purpose' set for PvP etc. too. This was all something fun to do other than simply grind all day. But upon reflection, I suppose anything that might actually require "thought" is considered a bad design choice these days.

Originally posted by Kindelnol

Originally posted by scratchpup

I disagree.
I think one of the good things about WoW was that you knew what items to expect, and it gave you a feeling of having a realistic goal to achieve.

There are other ways to give people this feeling, like through trophy items, titles, skills, or quests.

I started with AC and beating a very special boss not only gave you experience and what not for the quest, but also a title. Sometimes you would even get a great item and display it at your house.

Sets shouldn't be required for this feeling, and to be honest, all they do is make everyone clones, as the topic indicates. To me, that gives even less desire to get the pieces.

To each his own I suppose.

There was an optimal piece for a slot, yes, but you didn't always have access to it.
I liked mixing and matching gear around what was available to me.

I hated that they made multiple tier sets for the different specs of classes.
It took away like 80% of the mixing and matching.

In AC I would do loot runs though the dire lands, go out for an hour or two fill up the back packs and come back home to sell some of the crap for M notes or keep some of the good stuff.  Every once in awhile you could find a great item to tinker up.  I loved this aspect of the game.  There was some good static loot that you could get, but it was great to be able to go out and find your own gear which might be superior.  Fun stuff.

It's simple, balance and time taken to create an item generator that will not push out the random glitched lowbie item that has insane stats.

Slotting items seems to be the best method of this but even then balancing issues come about.

It comes down to time and want of the devs to do this.

People like simple games, this has been proven time and time again.

Originally posted by fcwedd

Good post! However, if one was able to choose their own stats, we would still end up with the same old cookie cutter weapons; everyone would go for more damage and speed.

Not necessarily. The weapons wouldn't be exactly cookie cutter because there would be different amounts of ++ you could add to it, different negatives to balance out the bonuses, different types of bonuses (not just +STR). For instance, one healer might choose a staff and enhance it with +15 casting speed, +150 mana while another healer might choose a (completely different) staff with +25 casting speed, +mp cost decrease when using "good" spells. It would be up to the devs to provide many different types of enhancements (+against undead, +% chance instant kill, +running speed, +% chance stun, etc.)

Even in L2, which everybody claims is the ultimate "cookie cutter" game, there is variety in the gear that each player wears. Yes, there are standards of what's considered "best" but everyone puts their own spin on it. If you consider tattoos, weapon SAs, set bonuses, augmentations, etc. you would find more variation than clones. Especially in versatile classes like the BD.

Oh, and while I've never played SWG, you make its crafting system sound more like a chore than fun. From your brief description, I really think I'd hate that type of crafting. I want to spend my time playing the game, not writing down endless lists of variables and trying to figure out how to get the best combination to get what I want. Like I said, I don't know anything about the SWG crafting system, so I could be very wrong. It just sounds like an incredibly frustrating time sink.

I do like the Diablo random stat gen but I would say that is great for SP and multi-player RPGs (not MMORPGs). I'm not sure, but Hellgate London might have this (awsome), it is the orignal team of Diablo so we can expect great things (including random map gen!). Now what would be pretty cool (kind of but maybe not) would be the random dungeon generator. Doesn't have to be random but every week the worlds select a map (lets just do a WoW example, week 1 BWL has map A, next week it could have map D, week after map C) so have at most 10 different maps (not slight differences, a whole new layout). This way raids wouldn't be boring lol. Just a thought but that may cause more problems .

Makes me want to play D1 and D2 now....

The suggestions in this thread offer great solutions to a problem that many MMOs today create for themselves for whatever reason. As technology advances and a new age of gaming dawns I think item looting will be a thing of the past. In all the years I have spent MMORPGs and games in general I have never fully understood item looting in the first place. I never understood how an item such as a metal sword could appear after killing a tiger made of flesh and bone. I understand that it is an incentive for players to fight a creature over and over again, but why not try something new?

One way would be to add a little more realism to the MMORPG (more like magic realism considering many MMOs are fantasy based). For example, instead of killing a certain monster over and over again to get an item with perfect stats, one could just throw out the stats altogether. For those that enjoy the surprise of seeing how good a weapon is can truly be surprised by testing out said weapon in battle. To obtain such a weapon a player could either craft it or buy it from a vendor or a friend that crafted it. Depending on how much effort was put in creating the weapon would determine the final outcome of the weapon. If a person spent much time sharpening the blade of a sword but not much thought into how much it weighed, the weapon might be strong and sharp enough to slice through armor but may be too heavy to swing around - in turn slowing down the person's attack speed. The accuracy of the player would depend on how much time a player spent practicing swordsmanship. He would have to aim himself and an attack would hit no matter what, but how accurate it was (basically how much hand-eye coordination the toon had developed) would depend on how much practice the character itself had - it would have nothing to do with the weapon.

Of course, a game such as this will probably not be out any time soon, it might not come out ever, but it is definitely something to think about as we approach a new age in technology and gaming. The resources are available, but it depends on if gamers show a want for such features to be put into a game.

Originally posted by Funseiki

The suggestions in this thread offer great solutions to a problem that many MMOs today create for themselves for whatever reason. As technology advances and a new age of gaming dawns I think item looting will be a thing of the past. In all the years I have spent MMORPGs and games in general I have never fully understood item looting in the first place. I never understood how an item such as a metal sword could appear after killing a tiger made of flesh and bone. I understand that it is an incentive for players to fight a creature over and over again, but why not try something new?

One way would be to add a little more realism to the MMORPG (more like magic realism considering many MMOs are fantasy based). For example, instead of killing a certain monster over and over again to get an item with perfect stats, one could just throw out the stats altogether. For those that enjoy the surprise of seeing how good a weapon is can truly be surprised by testing out said weapon in battle. To obtain such a weapon a player could either craft it or buy it from a vendor or a friend that crafted it. Depending on how much effort was put in creating the weapon would determine the final outcome of the weapon. If a person spent much time sharpening the blade of a sword but not much thought into how much it weighed, the weapon might be strong and sharp enough to slice through armor but may be too heavy to swing around - in turn slowing down the person's attack speed. The accuracy of the player would depend on how much time a player spent practicing swordsmanship. He would have to aim himself and an attack would hit no matter what, but how accurate it was (basically how much hand-eye coordination the toon had developed) would depend on how much practice the character itself had - it would have nothing to do with the weapon.

Of course, a game such as this will probably not be out any time soon, it might not come out ever, but it is definitely something to think about as we approach a new age in technology and gaming. The resources are available, but it depends on if gamers show a want for such features to be put into a game.

You find parts of animals to have you little "Helper" craft the weapon for you.

Killing a Bolma may get you some bolma claws which will help with making a rare claw weapon, rather good system.

However most complain it isn't fun. Players simply need "PHATZOR LEWT" to keep playing, it's appealing the natural gambling addiction humans have (random numbers and such).