Originally posted by Yukari_Momma

 

Originally posted by Amathe

This is rather funny. I point to the most successful mmo in history, that has 9 million players, and you say it's complete crap (not to mention totally misrepresenting its features). Then you say that a game that isn't made yet will be perfect and superior in every way. Ok, I admit I can't point to a real game that is better than the one in your imagination.  So HJ will be perfect, won't need a beta, and will be deeper than any mmo before it nothwithstanding its shoestring budget and glacial progression, if any. Got it!

I really have to agree with Amathe here.  Normally the negative sort, this post is actually very neutral and down to earth.  We all have to remember that the dream will ALWAYS be better than the reality when watching a game.  Also, World of Warcraft isn't "complete crap" since it DOES have so many people that like it.  The same thing happening over and over again with houses and such isn't just because they were lazy, but to make it run on really old systems.  The character creation isn't among the worst...  Lineage 2 and Final Fantasy XI is were someone should go to see bad character creation in a pay to play game.

 

 

It's alright to dislike a game.  It's alright to want HJ more than any other game.  The fact is though that insulting another game with exaggerated facts wont make anyone listen to the fans of Hero's Journey.  It will just get he partially justified stigma of "they are a bunch of blind sheep" into people's heads.

Amathes' reputation regarding HJ is trashy to say the best so any post from that source is pretty much a waste of space. Regarding HJ well it will be a little more refined than WOW just in the respect of the company that has produced it.

I know the the majority of any population is not that blessed with intelect to the level of  the minority or put another way a minority is a lot more inteligent than the majority. WOW falls into the majority category, easy to play ... mindless stress free ... other than the End Game RAID which is full of muppets fighting over loot.(And yes I did Max a Hunter out and raid for a few weeks and then quit , damn did i just admit that). WOW is designed to a model and acheived a goal of making lots and lots of cash but not a lot more it shows no inovation whatsoever and panders to all that is bad withion current MMOs (anything released in the last 3 yrs). 

So what the poster says above is pretty accurate regarding WOW and not detrimental to him in any way. It fits a demographic that is generally short of the brain cells required to entertain anything bordering on complex!!!

Originally posted by Yukari_Momma

 

Originally posted by Amathe

This is rather funny. I point to the most successful mmo in history, that has 9 million players, and you say it's complete crap (not to mention totally misrepresenting its features). Then you say that a game that isn't made yet will be perfect and superior in every way. Ok, I admit I can't point to a real game that is better than the one in your imagination.  So HJ will be perfect, won't need a beta, and will be deeper than any mmo before it nothwithstanding its shoestring budget and glacial progression, if any. Got it!

I really have to agree with Amathe here.  Normally the negative sort, this post is actually very neutral and down to earth.  We all have to remember that the dream will ALWAYS be better than the reality when watching a game.  Also, World of Warcraft isn't "complete crap" since it DOES have so many people that like it.  The same thing happening over and over again with houses and such isn't just because they were lazy, but to make it run on really old systems.  The character creation isn't among the worst...  Lineage 2 and Final Fantasy XI is were someone should go to see bad character creation in a pay to play game.

 

 

It's alright to dislike a game.  It's alright to want HJ more than any other game.  The fact is though that insulting another game with exaggerated facts wont make anyone listen to the fans of Hero's Journey.  It will just get he partially justified stigma of "they are a bunch of blind sheep" into people's heads.

If WoW's character creation isn't among the worst then it shows how bad the genre really is right now. I've played FFXI so I have to disagree with you. WoW's character creation isn't any better. WoW is like the Super Mario Brothers of MMORPG's. Both are popular but neither are great games. The only difference is that console developers actually try to make better games instead of copying Super Mario Brothers. Unfortunately for the MMORPG genre there have been too many companies trying to copy WoW and that's been horrible for the genre. All they care about is making money instead of making great games. Fortunately Simu is actually putting some effort into their game and making an original game instead of putting out yet another clone.

Whats funny is they arent copying wow, they are copying EQ which is what WoW did.....

And so far i have never been disapointed with any Simu game, DR and GS3 and even Hurc&Xena were all very fun complex innovative games. Though i do admit i love GS3 cause i think the rolemaster system is awesome

In terms of ability to make your character look different form everyone else's, WoW's character creation is better than FFXI's.  I'm talking about at the character screen, looks wise when I say that.  If someone considers jobs and such, I suppose they get more evened up with FFXI having multiclassing and WoW having talents.  Personal preferences would say which is better at that point, but WoW has more character look combinations at the character creation screen than Final Fantasy XI.

But we aren't here to talk about a game that has nothing to do with HJ.  They're not alike in any way I can think of so there isn't a reason.  Different company structure, different engines, different starts, different thinking..  They will attract different people (and no, I'm not sorting out the human population by brain cell count).  Who they attract doesn't make anyone bad or anything, it means people, thankfully, think differently and want different things.  It's what keeps niche things alive and viable and I will continue to talk to game design classmates about WoW and HJ on equal but unique terms.

Now!  I know all these people are getting antsy because of no Hero's Journey coming out and other games saying they will be soon...  But I have this strange feeling some of these other games will be getting delayed to next year and they'll all be released around HJ closer than people think.  Maybe I'm wrong, but my intuition says it.

I'm not here to defend WoW, or promote WoW over HJ. WoW is the king of the hill in the mmo market and doesn't need me to defend it.

But I do make this one observation. When Sigil fell apart, one of their employees said something insightful. To paraphrase, he said that Sigil spent too much time distancing themselves from WoW and trying to be the anti-WoW, when what they should have been doing is learning from its popularity and functionality. Personally, if Simu actually makes this game, I think they will be smarter than Sigil and not make the same mistake. But if they do make that mistake - and it would be a HUGE mistake - that's on them.

Originally posted by Amathe

I'm not here to defend WoW, or promote WoW over HJ. WoW is the king of the hill in the mmo market and doesn't need me to defend it.

But I do make this one observation. When Sigil fell apart, one of their employees said something insightful. To paraphrase, he said that Sigil spent too much time distancing themselves from WoW and trying to be the anti-WoW, when what they should have been doing is learning from its popularity and functionality. Personally, if Simu actually makes this game, I think they will be smarter than Sigil and not make the same mistake. But if they do make that mistake - and it would be a HUGE mistake - that's on them.

Frankly I think that's rubbish, no personal offence meant. WoW is an average game (some would argue below average and frankly after level 40 I'd agree), but it does two things right. One it's basic with a fun level 1 to 40 "My First MMO" start which it needs to be because of it's main selling point number two, it's Warcraft. Millions on millions of b.net players joined the MMORPG market because of Warcraft, if WoW hadn't have been Warcraft they would never ever have played ever, just about all of them thought that WoW was either the first MMORPG or that it was original in it's gameplay (like Blizzard could ever be original in their gameplay). Yes, lots of MMORPG players played WoW but that isn't where WoW got its playerbase, if this had been the case there wouldn't be any other MMORPGs other than WoW to play because WoWs numbers grew so massive all the other games would have shut down.

It doesn't matter how much like WoW they made Vanguard, it would never have been a massive hit. Think about what you're saying Amathe, WoW didn't do anything new and making a game that's anything like WoW will not bring you a massive WoW size player base. LOTRO is proof of that, I believe it's healthy but it can't even come close to WoW for numbers. It just doesn't have that "mustz playz teh computer gamez to deth and pnwz the noobz" b.net following that Warcraft has, off the top of my head I really can't think of any other non-Blizzard IP that does. Not even Warhammer.

Forgive any spelling etc, it's late here

  Yea HJ was being 1st developed in 99 i believe was 1 year after UO release 1st engine was very Diablo like.. this is the 3rd engine .

Originally posted by Scorchien

  Yea HJ was being 1st developed in 99 i believe was 1 year after UO release 1st engine was very Diablo like.. this is the 3rd engine .

That's not quite fair to say.  I think the project you are talking about is the scrapped one that shares nothing but the same title with this version which was started in the 2000s.

Originally posted by Yukari_Momma

In terms of ability to make your character look different form everyone else's, WoW's character creation is better than FFXI's.  I'm talking about at the character screen, looks wise when I say that.  If someone considers jobs and such, I suppose they get more evened up with FFXI having multiclassing and WoW having talents.  Personal preferences would say which is better at that point, but WoW has more character look combinations at the character creation screen than Final Fantasy XI.

 

But we aren't here to talk about a game that has nothing to do with HJ.  They're not alike in any way I can think of so there isn't a reason.  Different company structure, different engines, different starts, different thinking..  They will attract different people (and no, I'm not sorting out the human population by brain cell count).  Who they attract doesn't make anyone bad or anything, it means people, thankfully, think differently and want different things.  It's what keeps niche things alive and viable and I will continue to talk to game design classmates about WoW and HJ on equal but unique terms.

 

Now!  I know all these people are getting antsy because of no Hero's Journey coming out and other games saying they will be soon...  But I have this strange feeling some of these other games will be getting delayed to next year and they'll all be released around HJ closer than people think.  Maybe I'm wrong, but my intuition says it.

I don't mean to argue with you about it, I just disagree. I've played both games and my opinion about the character creation differs from yours. WoW may have a few more options but not that much more. It's not like Second life or even CoH/CoV. I still see just as many clones in WoW that I did in FF. That's why I say it's among the worst. I never said it's THE worst. Even if it has a few more options than FF doesn't make it any better than FF. It's still very limited in it's character creation. But again, I'm not arguing, I'm just respectfully disagreeing.

Originally posted by Amathe

I'm not here to defend WoW, or promote WoW over HJ. WoW is the king of the hill in the mmo market and doesn't need me to defend it.

But I do make this one observation. When Sigil fell apart, one of their employees said something insightful. To paraphrase, he said that Sigil spent too much time distancing themselves from WoW and trying to be the anti-WoW, when what they should have been doing is learning from its popularity and functionality. Personally, if Simu actually makes this game, I think they will be smarter than Sigil and not make the same mistake. But if they do make that mistake - and it would be a HUGE mistake - that's on them.

I don't see Simu trying to make HJ the anti-WoW but at the same time it certainly won't be another clone. Again, WoW is so popular because it's the Super Mario Brothers of MMORPG's. Yes it's easy to play and that's why people like it, but there's no challenge to it and the quests are way too repetitive. I don't know how HJ is going to play beyond what I've seen in the videos but hopefully it will be challeging but not to the point that you'll want to bang your head against the wall. The Journey system will be a big improvement over the quest system that WoW uses. Their unique crafting system and dynamic instances will keep the game from being the grindfest that WoW and other games like it are. I want to see what their duel class system will be like. Gemstone has a class system but everyone can train in any skill including lockpicking, disarming traps, picking pockets etc. Of course rogues can train more in those skills and thus be better lockpicks than any other class but they're not the only class limited to those skills. All classes including Warriors can learn some magic though it's more expensive to learn for certain classes than others , and mages can learn how to wield two handed weapons or even hold a weapon in each hand, but again you would have to sacrifice your magic training to learn those skills. But at least you're not limited to a certain skill set for each class like you are in other classes. I'll be interested to see if HJ is anything like GS in that regard.

But any ways, I like the direction that HJ is going. It's a lot better than all the clones comming out, especially LoTRO. That may be the most dissapointing game ever. I can't believe the most popular fantasy franchise of all time can't do any better than that. It's a really pathetic effort by Turbine if you ask me. I'm glad HJ didn't go that route.

Originally posted by Kenorv

 

I finally understand. Amathe is a WoW fanboy and thinks that every MMORPG that follows WoW should be a WoW/EQ clone.

I have played 8 or 9 mmos and beta tested a slew of them. I have never been a fanboy of any game. There is a lot to like about WoW, and there are things about it I don't like - some of them major. But that is neither here nor there. If you find it convenient to pigeonhole people you speak to, as opposed to listening to what they say, there is nothing I can do about that.

I see a lot of people talking about how easy WoW is without ever really doing much in the game of significance. My favorite was a letter to the editor recently in Games for Windows Magazine, talking about how shallow and easy WoW is. He was level 49 lol.  Whatever. There is no persuading someone like that. Suffice to say that at max level that is not the end of the game, and there are tons of challenges after that.

Then there is the standard "wow kiddie" criticism. Yes, WoW has its share of idiots. All mmos do. HJ will too if it ever releases. Judging from some of these threads it is a lock cinch lol. I don't know who you guys play games with, but my friends are doctors, lawyers, business people, IT people - adults with jobs and families. /shrug

My point was not that HJ should copy WoW. I said what I meant the first time though so no need to repeat it. *glances upwards*

Originally posted by Kenorv

I don't see Simu trying to make HJ the anti-WoW but at the same time it certainly won't be another clone.

This made remember how much crap I've seen Simu puke over "other mmo's" out there...And to be honest, I do hear developer puke over other games and, at the same time, throw roses over their own.. But Not as much I've seen/read Simu do. Hell, they are the masters of puking. So, It will be very interesting to finally see HJ, if it actually is released, and check how much different it will be of the other MMO's, bathing in Simu puke. I think, however, Simu turned down the puking lately, and that is good and bad.. Good, because its nicer, but bad because it could mean they realised it might end up pretty much like everything else out there.

So I hope Amathe is wrong or I will curse Simu for wasting my time following this, in theory, interesting game so f-ing long and curse myself for not listening to Amethe's (and his allies), sometimes pretty good points, more seriously.

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I have played 8 or 9 mmos and beta tested a slew of them. I have never been a fanboy of any game. There is a lot to like about WoW, and there are things about it I don't like - some of them major. But that is neither here nor there. If you find it convenient to pigeonhole people you speak to, as opposed to listening to what they say, there is nothing I can do about that.

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You just described how you respond and treat anyone from Simu that post about the game.

Bravo!

Jonny

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Originally posted by Dyng-Johan

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Originally posted by Kenorv
I don't see Simu trying to make HJ the anti-WoW but at the same time it certainly won't be another clone.

---

This made remember how much crap I've seen Simu puke over "other mmo's" out there...And to be honest, I do hear developer puke over other games and, at the same time, throw roses over their own.. But Not as much I've seen/read Simu do. Hell, they are the masters of puking. So, It will be very interesting to finally see HJ, if it actually is released, and check how much different it will be of the other MMO's, bathing in Simu puke. I think, however, Simu turned down the puking lately, and that is good and bad.. Good, because its nicer, but bad because it could mean they realised it might end up pretty much like everything else out there.


So I hope Amathe is wrong or I will curse Simu for wasting my time following this, in theory, interesting game so f-ing long and curse myself for not listening to Amethe's (and his allies), sometimes pretty good points, more seriously.

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Just saying they do this or that does not make it true. Perhaps you can reference an example of what your talking about? Sure, they post how they don't like some types of game systems, but I don't recall them bashing any game titles.

Jonny

Originally posted by jgankum

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I have played 8 or 9 mmos and beta tested a slew of them. I have never been a fanboy of any game. There is a lot to like about WoW, and there are things about it I don't like - some of them major. But that is neither here nor there. If you find it convenient to pigeonhole people you speak to, as opposed to listening to what they say, there is nothing I can do about that.

---

You just described how you respond and treat anyone from Simu that post about the game.

Bravo!

Jonny

Originally posted by jgankum

 

 

Just saying they do this or that does not make it true. Perhaps you can reference an example of what your talking about? Sure, they post how they don't like some types of game systems, but I don't recall them bashing any game titles.

Jonny

I doesn't make it untrue either...

Start by looking at the old "live stream" from simucon 2005. That will give you an Idea on what I'm talking about. If you havent seen it, It contains alot of stuff that made me interested in the game, long time ago. The thing is, I like when they say Everquest, and its clones,  are crap.. that shows some balls, and its funny. It might be rude, but I like rude before nice sometimes, because its usually more honest. You will find the clip at Heroes Hall (HJ fan/community site)I think. Oh, btw, pointing at gamesystem is pretty much the same, at least when it's totally obvious what game they talk about. Anyway, I recommend it to all, not only for some silly evidence for the crap I post...

However, I think they admitted that CoH/CoV's character creation was the inspiration for HJ's character creation, as they (I guess) liked it (not the game that is).

 peace man!

                    Well it shares the same company ,and this game has been scrapped twice before the 1st engine in 99 the 2nd (unreal) engine in 2003 i believe then they develop there own engine which looks very promising ..don't get me wrong i have high hopes for this game and Simutronics being a subscriber to there text games which are very good

Er, I think the Hero is still on his journey.  In fact, I think he may never reach the end of his journey.  Not crossing fingers on this one.

((( Oh, btw, pointing at gamesystem is pretty much the same, at least when it's totally obvious what game they talk about. )))

Not even close. Talking bad about a game title is panning the whole title. Talking bad about a game system is panning one aspect gaming that is often shared among many games. Either way though, I still don't see evidence of your claim or implied claim that Simu as a company outright bashes other game company's titles often.

Jonny.

"WAR is already talking about beta's and they have an 08 release date."

WAR is talking about betas because the way they developed the game and beta test program focuses on one world area at a time. So they attempt to create one racial area, then allow people to test that area while they start building the next racial area. Testers would not be given access to all areas or races in this scheme.

As for WAR being developed faster than HJ, well they have at least 4 times the developers, 200 compared to 50. Does that mean it will be a better or more polished game than HJ? No. Some of my favorite MMOGs were created by small studios and teams nobody had ever heard of. I think HJ should just step back, stay focused, and let all the WoW clones rushing to market fall flat on their faces. I expect HJ to be more like EVE, an online community that steadily grows over years. And just like EVE, they do not have to be the biggest MMOG to succeed, they just need to create a deep and engaging experience.