To sum up: Skill based, where nobody knows your level and everybody has a use.

I know for one thing alot of games are like that were you seem to eed to level to have any fun. Games like WoW for example, you can't take 1 day off or else your way behind in leveling of your friends. Then eople won't allow you in there groups and you can't go to the same instances as your friends. So then you level up so you can be with your friends agian. Another thing is most mmorpgs are a grind to level 20 (estimate) to get any new skills or get a real class be sides the generic clas of "New Player". So yes there definetly is a pressure to level.

Originally posted by chaintm

wow no one has said the obvious in the article and or remarks after, maybe because looking at yourself in a mirror is hard to do when you know the reason is..................................

 

BRAGGING RIGHTS!

 

lol this is , after all the end of end of any issue when it comes to MMO and you!

Those that get to the top boast it like no tomorow, then complain no one in their guild is there and now they are bored. Then once others get there, the pwn that tard for finally reaching that level in some type of pvp combat then guess what......

 

MORE BRAGGING RIGHTS!

 

Notice a trend here? lol thought you guys would, this is indeed the reasons behind it all. We are a socioity built on things, things are what identifies most with their neighbor, do I have more then he or she does? Good that means I am doing better! That is the truth of it all.. sad I know, but it is what it is, put this mentality into any MMO heck, even mention this in a guild with a female player (yes I am picking on you RL ladies now) and see their reaction. You would actually be shocked. Everytime I do so, it is the EXACT same response no matter the game or guild. We are a world based on materialistic needs and when you put that into an MMO world, it is even more so shown on the dependance of "Owning things"... I am more uber , I have more then you, blah blah blah... lol get a clue this is nothing new. Sadly if your a religious person as myself,  you know this is a very sad trend indeed, as this is one of the major sins, oh well human nature at it's worst.

 

PEACE,

X

Even if you play with real friends, there's still this thing in the back of your mind that says, "I wanna be better than them".  So that you'll have... bragging rights.

Originally posted by chaintm

wow no one has said the obvious in the article and or remarks after, maybe because looking at yourself in a mirror is hard to do when you know the reason is..................................

 

BRAGGING RIGHTS!

 

lol this is , after all the end of end of any issue when it comes to MMO and you!

Those that get to the top boast it like no tomorow, then complain no one in their guild is there and now they are bored. Then once others get there, the pwn that tard for finally reaching that level in some type of pvp combat then guess what......

 

MORE BRAGGING RIGHTS!

 

Notice a trend here? lol thought you guys would, this is indeed the reasons behind it all. We are a socioity built on things, things are what identifies most with their neighbor, do I have more then he or she does? Good that means I am doing better! That is the truth of it all.. sad I know, but it is what it is, put this mentality into any MMO heck, even mention this in a guild with a female player (yes I am picking on you RL ladies now) and see their reaction. You would actually be shocked. Everytime I do so, it is the EXACT same response no matter the game or guild. We are a world based on materialistic needs and when you put that into an MMO world, it is even more so shown on the dependance of "Owning things"... I am more uber , I have more then you, blah blah blah... lol get a clue this is nothing new. Sadly if your a religious person as myself,  you know this is a very sad trend indeed, as this is one of the major sins, oh well human nature at it's worst.

 

PEACE,

X

LOL!  I read this and pictured board meetings at every major MMORPG developer - "Alright everyone, they're on to us.  What do we do now?!"  You nailed it, without question.  This is why I hate PvP, and one reason I hate level-based MMOGs.  It's all about which tard can move bits faster than some other poor schlep.  There WAS a game that didn't focus on the get-more-have-more-pwn-more aspects of gaming... it was changed into WoW In Space.

Yes, i would have to agree bragging rights is a big thing in mmorpg's. But i'd have to also say that the feeling of accomplishment is also what push's alot of us. Once you hit that one lvl, get that one item, put that one boss on the raid "farm" list, you feel like you've actually done something in the game, like you've actually achieved a goal / interest point, which then turns into a feeling of accomplishment.

I never felt better about taking down a big badass mob like Avatar or War than when our guild smashed his ass for the first time.

Or, when my guild for the first time took down the Zek's in PoTime when PoP was released after numerous attempts and tactics, it finally succeeded. Which then gave that morale and spirit to the guild. We finally got over that mentallity of ," Sob, not this guy again, Inc wipe...", which then turned into a, "Aight, np, lets use so and so tactic this time...".

So i guess you could say the same thing about "speed leveling". If that's your goal, to hit the top lvl before anyone or most people hit that level, it could be seen to some people as a sense of accomplishment. Only thing is, once you hit your one goal, you get / set another one, whether it be an item, a pvp rank, so and and so forth

Sidekicks is one of the best ideas going and should be done by every mmo that has a level based system.

A raid solution?  Remove raiding from the game­.  Most peoples don't want to raid.  Or make raiding use different stats, that have nothing to do with levels and your grouping stats and have no freaking impact on grouping...as long as raiding don't impact on grouping, I can't care less what happen there...as soon as raiding shaft 1 grouper, I will bitch, moan and cancel my account to such a sucky game.  How often do you see raiders complain that they add new levels; this is nuts.  They are basically wanting a game to stall.  Just get them out of the game, don't want them at all­­.

Sidekick/lackeys works marvelously well.

I want MORE levels.  Not less.

Originally posted by chaintm

wow no one has said the obvious in the article and or remarks after, maybe because looking at yourself in a mirror is hard to do when you know the reason is..................................

 

BRAGGING RIGHTS!

 

lol this is , after all the end of end of any issue when it comes to MMO and you!

Those that get to the top boast it like no tomorow, then complain no one in their guild is there and now they are bored. Then once others get there, the pwn that tard for finally reaching that level in some type of pvp combat then guess what......

 

MORE BRAGGING RIGHTS!

 

Notice a trend here? lol thought you guys would, this is indeed the reasons behind it all. We are a socioity built on things, things are what identifies most with their neighbor, do I have more then he or she does? Good that means I am doing better! That is the truth of it all.. sad I know, but it is what it is, put this mentality into any MMO heck, even mention this in a guild with a female player (yes I am picking on you RL ladies now) and see their reaction. You would actually be shocked. Everytime I do so, it is the EXACT same response no matter the game or guild. We are a world based on materialistic needs and when you put that into an MMO world, it is even more so shown on the dependance of "Owning things"... I am more uber , I have more then you, blah blah blah... lol get a clue this is nothing new. Sadly if your a religious person as myself,  you know this is a very sad trend indeed, as this is one of the major sins, oh well human nature at it's worst.

 

PEACE,

X

Actually, Romse pretty much said it in post 7.....

Originally posted by Endemondia

2 - remove levels - I find it terrible that only  similar level characters can play together in most games.  City of Villains/Heroes has tried to counter this with henchman and as mentioned previously EQ2 also has a similar system. BUT imagine if games had no level system and all adventures (I will save my attack on static scenarios for another thread) are eligable for any one. Games like Guildwars owe their success to providing a balance between what is needed in the future for mmorpg design and what has gone before. A bridge if you will between the problem and the solution. Almost a a path to enlightenment for those who seek the light!

It's not really a henchman system -- effectively you can increase a friends' power level up to your own ("sidekick" them) or else reduce your power level down to his ("exemplar") so you can group together.  It's an effective system. 

As for imagining no level system at all, yeah SWG didn't have one pre-cu..... ( ' ;

Originally posted by Anofalye

A raid solution?  Remove raiding from the game­.  Most peoples don't want to raid.  Or make raiding use different stats, that have nothing to do with levels and your grouping stats and have no freaking impact on grouping

Agreed.  Other game systems can adapt to this problem, if raiding cannot then that is just one more on its long list of flaws ever since raiding was adopted as a game mechanic in MMORPGs. 

Remove Levels, Classes, and raids. Go skill based and do not put in any sort of content gamers can burn through but rather focus on sandbox elements. The big part of the problem PVE is repetitive in nature and is bound by programmer constraints. PVP is dynamic in nature each encounter in PVP becomes infinitely more complex the more diversity we add

To be brief- I want to compare Neverwinter Nights 2 (coop rpg) to Crackdown xbox 360 (coop rpg). NWN2 is a traditional RPG founded on D&D rules. Crackdown is skill based.

Anyone can join a game I host in Crackdown. EVen a newbie. That's because in Crackdown there are no levels. You still get more powerful as your avatar progresses just like in NWN2 but your hitpoints never change. This means the mobs all always pose a threat even though they all get easier to defeat as you progress

In NWN2, due to the level barrier, the servers I host I ahve to put level restrictions. This cuts out many folks.

The more Developer restrictions that exist- the more restrictions we all suffer. I like the interdependence that Classes creates but instead I like the idea of letting players create 'their own unique class'.

I'll try to elaborate more in a blog at somepoint. This way I can post nice illustrations and much more detail on my points of view

Originally posted by therain93

 

Originally posted by Endemondia

2 - remove levels - I find it terrible that only  similar level characters can play together in most games.  City of Villains/Heroes has tried to counter this with henchman and as mentioned previously EQ2 also has a similar system. BUT imagine if games had no level system and all adventures (I will save my attack on static scenarios for another thread) are eligable for any one. Games like Guildwars owe their success to providing a balance between what is needed in the future for mmorpg design and what has gone before. A bridge if you will between the problem and the solution. Almost a a path to enlightenment for those who seek the light!

 

It's not really a henchman system -- effectively you can increase a friends' power level up to your own ("sidekick" them) or else reduce your power level down to his ("exemplar") so you can group together.  It's an effective system. 

As for imagining no level system at all, yeah SWG didn't have one pre-cu..... ( ' ;

the problem with sidekicking the 'sidekick' will lack powers that he would have if he were that level.

In a skill based system we could rememdy this possibly by allowing the strength/value of a skill to leak to players that are grouped together. Class based we cant really solve this easily

The key is allowing players to acquire the desired skills at will. Pure Skill based systems newbies have a version of every skill already acquired their jsut weaker then the pros. so in a skill based system if we allowed sidekicking a mentor could increase the value of the sidekick's skill value. So for instance healing value can go from 1 to 100% if im sidekicked to a mentor or maybe a couple points below the mentor

The closest game to no have levels today is eve online, all is skill which you can train even when not online,

bit to heavy on pvp for my taste but can be fun in small doses :)

As for crazy level grinds, just look what happens when a game like everquest increases the level cap, people grind like crazy to get the last 5 levels in as short time as possible, then complain again that the game is boring :)

I played everquest since 2001 and that guy is now lvl 64, in anarchy online that i started sometime in 2003 iirc my highest is 146, top level there is 220 so can't say i'm in any rush :D