First, I am not implying this is what everyone wants but from my experience online since the days of BBS's... I do think it is fair to say that I have a good indication of what "some" people want out of an MMO.  So here goes...

1. NO PvP.  Complaining because you can gank, complaining because you can't gank, the whining about every minute detail, the cries for nerfs of this or that class, the cries for nerfs of this or that weapon or armor piece, the never ending quest for class balance, the hilarious epeen wagging.... it's just not worth it.  Many times I see a game I think I might like but if it offers PvP or a PvP mix, I immediately lose interest (as do many others).  How many pure PvP games out there were mega hits?  WoW was even OK until the focus went to PvP and people either started leaving or looking to leave.

2. Yes RvR.  This is awesome if done properly.  Have an area where everyone goes to RvR.  There needs to be a goal to achieve such as taking a castle, defending a fort, etc.  Some people like offense, some defense... make it so both are always available.  It's no fun when one side dominates another for weeks/months on end.  Make safe places where people can go AFK if need be, make it so if just ONE guy is there there is something for him to do and not have to wait for other people to show up.  Siege weapons, ranged weapons, tactics, players and NPCs intermixed to make for  a fun yet challenging RvR experience. 

3. NO LEVELS.  You make a character and you don't gain levels, you get more powerful by earning weapons, armor, abilities, skills, traits, titles, enhancements, etc.  With leveling you undoubtedly have the level grind... not fun.  Players think the game doesn't start until you reach the max level.   A big plus is no low level content to code, developers can focus on content that every single player can have access to  as soon as they buy the game. 

4. NO FORCED GROUPING.  I cannot stress this enough.  MMO doesn't mean grouping, it means it's a big game that many people play online.  It is very frustrating to sit on your butt LFG for an hour when you only had an hour to play that day.  I like to play solo, but with others.  Yep, I want every bit of content to be able to be done without the help of someone else.  I want to be able to do everything in the game by myself but with available chat channels.  I can ask for hints, just chat or whatever while I am working to improve my character.  And best of all is no sitting around with a group missing a healer and wasting 3 hours trying to find one.  If people want to group, make some content for that if you must... but DO NOT make the loot you get from it one smidgen better than what the solo player can get on his own!  have a big city or gathering area where everyone can show off their achievements... we all know this one thing is why so many play MMOs.  Have social events, interactive things among players in this social area... make it so it's sometimes just fun to hang out there for a few hours and not just be out working on your character.

5. NO RAIDING. No one raids for fun, even though some claim to.  If the raid netted zero loot then I can guarantee that no one would be going on that raid.  MMOs seem to think that raiding is the premier way to get the best gear, well time to start thinking outside the box.  Make a nice, long, multi-stage quest that awards the best loot.  make the appearance of weapons and armor very customizable so even though we all may have the same gear after 5 years of playing, you won't be able to tell by looking at us. 

6. CRAFTING.  Some like it, some don't.  Make it optional but don't make it so crafters make BETTER items, make it so crafters make cooler looking items but with the same stats as questable items or mob drops.  (Perhaps the crafted version of UberSword01 is flaming whereas the mob dropped one is not.)

7. CLASS BALANCE.  Make it so there isn't a clear cut "best class" or "best race" to roll.  Make each one viable in it's own right but with different battle abilities and tactics, different skill sets, etc... but not so "oh you gotta be a Fiery Leather Battlemage to be worthwhile".  Your character should be equal to any other at the start but differs later on what skills and abilities you earn, what quests you choose to do for weapons and gear, etc.  No penatlies to a certain race because it is short, no penalty to charisma beause one race is ugly, this only leads to "this race/class is best" syndrome.

8. TRAVEL AND DEATH.  Running somewhere for 15 real life minutes is not fun, but again getting anywhere instantly is not the answer.  Have quests that award run speed bonuses or mounts with varying speeds.  About DEATH - no corpse runs, no experience loss on death, no durability costs EVER on gear... death in an MMO should be a minor setback, not an ALT-F4 then screaming tantrum because you know what you have to do before you can be back to where you were before you died.  I played LoTRO until I was walking merrily along and BAM, you have been slain by "misadventure".  /boggle   I logged out, cancelled my account and haven't been back.

9. LOOT AND MONEY.  First about loot - this one is very debateable.  It is nice to know that GreenMob00 drops the Chestplate of  Hardee's but that encourages camping - argghh I just had an Everquest flashback.  World drop is very unreliable as one guy may get one in 1 kill whereas the next guy won't get one after 7 months of playing.  Suggestions are welcomed on this!  Perhaps you get a point when you kill a monster and you can then spend those points on gear or abilities?  Now about MONEY - ahh how to fend off the notorious gold farmers.  I really need suggestions on this issue.... in detail please.

10. IT MUST BE FUN!  The game must be fun, players must want to play it and be able to play for 5 minutes or 10 hours in one sitting.  Farming is not fun, reputation grinding is not fun, running the same instance over and over is not fun!   Remember this above all else is entertainment.  it shouldn't be a second job.  

Now I am sure many won't agree but that's OK... I repsect your opinion.  I would love to hear them if they are well thought out, explained in detail, have little or no misspelled words, use proper formatting and punctuation and are free of profanity.  Thanks everyione and happy MMOing!

Originally posted by sonicsix

First, I am not implying this is what everyone wants but from my experience online since the days of BBS's... I do think it is fair to say that I have a good indication of what "some" people want out of an MMO.  So here goes...

1. NO PvP.  Complaining because you can gank, complaining because you can't gank, the whining about every minute detail, the cries for nerfs of this or that class, the cries for nerfs of this or that weapon or armor piece, the never ending quest for class balance, the hilarious epeen wagging.... it's just not worth it.  Many times I see a game I think I might like but if it offers PvP or a PvP mix, I immediately lose interest (as do many others).  How many pure PvP games out there were mega hits?  WoW was even OK until the focus went to PvP and people either started leaving or looking to leave.

2. Yes RvR.  This is awesome if done properly.  Have an area where everyone goes to RvR.  There needs to be a goal to achieve such as taking a castle, defending a fort, etc.  Some people like offense, some defense... make it so both are always available.  It's no fun when one side dominates another for weeks/months on end.  Make safe places where people can go AFK if need be, make it so if just ONE guy is there there is something for him to do and not have to wait for other people to show up.  Siege weapons, ranged weapons, tactics, players and NPCs intermixed to make for  a fun yet challenging RvR experience. 

3. NO LEVELS.  You make a character and you don't gain levels, you get more powerful by earning weapons, armor, abilities, skills, traits, titles, enhancements, etc.  With leveling you undoubtedly have the level grind... not fun.  Players think the game doesn't start until you reach the max level.   A big plus is no low level content to code, developers can focus on content that every single player can have access to  as soon as they buy the game. 

4. NO FORCED GROUPING.  I cannot stress this enough.  MMO doesn't mean grouping, it means it's a big game that many people play online.  It is very frustrating to sit on your butt LFG for an hour when you only had an hour to play that day.  I like to play solo, but with others.  Yep, I want every bit of content to be able to be done without the help of someone else.  I want to be able to do everything in the game by myself but with available chat channels.  I can ask for hints, just chat or whatever while I am working to improve my character.  And best of all is no sitting around with a group missing a healer and wasting 3 hours trying to find one.  If people want to group, make some content for that if you must... but DO NOT make the loot you get from it one smidgen better than what the solo player can get on his own!  have a big city or gathering area where everyone can show off their achievements... we all know this one thing is why so many play MMOs.  Have social events, interactive things among players in this social area... make it so it's sometimes just fun to hang out there for a few hours and not just be out working on your character.

5. NO RAIDING. No one raids for fun, even though some claim to.  If the raid netted zero loot then I can guarantee that no one would be going on that raid.  MMOs seem to think that raiding is the premier way to get the best gear, well time to start thinking outside the box.  Make a nice, long, multi-stage quest that awards the best loot.  make the appearance of weapons and armor very customizable so even though we all may have the same gear after 5 years of playing, you won't be able to tell by looking at us. 

6. CRAFTING.  Some like it, some don't.  Make it optional but don't make it so crafters make BETTER items, make it so crafters make cooler looking items but with the same stats as questable items or mob drops.  (Perhaps the crafted version of UberSword01 is flaming whereas the mob dropped one is not.)

7. CLASS BALANCE.  Make it so there isn't a clear cut "best class" or "best race" to roll.  Make each one viable in it's own right but with different battle abilities and tactics, different skill sets, etc... but not so "oh you gotta be a Fiery Leather Battlemage to be worthwhile".  Your character should be equal to any other at the start but differs later on what skills and abilities you earn, what quests you choose to do for weapons and gear, etc.  No penatlies to a certain race because it is short, no penalty to charisma beause one race is ugly, this only leads to "this race/class is best" syndrome.

8. TRAVEL AND DEATH.  Running somewhere for 15 real life minutes is not fun, but again getting anywhere instantly is not the answer.  Have quests that award run speed bonuses or mounts with varying speeds.  About DEATH - no corpse runs, no experience loss on death, no durability costs EVER on gear... death in an MMO should be a minor setback, not an ALT-F4 then screaming tantrum because you know what you have to do before you can be back to where you were before you died.  I played LoTRO until I was walking merrily along and BAM, you have been slain by "misadventure".  /boggle   I logged out, cancelled my account and haven't been back.

9. LOOT AND MONEY.  First about loot - this one is very debateable.  It is nice to know that GreenMob00 drops the Chestplate of  Hardee's but that encourages camping - argghh I just had an Everquest flashback.  World drop is very unreliable as one guy may get one in 1 kill whereas the next guy won't get one after 7 months of playing.  Suggestions are welcomed on this!  Perhaps you get a point when you kill a monster and you can then spend those points on gear or abilities?  Now about MONEY - ahh how to fend off the notorious gold farmers.  I really need suggestions on this issue.... in detail please.

10. IT MUST BE FUN!  The game must be fun, players must want to play it and be able to play for 5 minutes or 10 hours in one sitting.  Farming is not fun, reputation grinding is not fun, running the same instance over and over is not fun!   Remember this above all else is entertainment.  it shouldn't be a second job.  

Now I am sure many won't agree but that's OK... I repsect your opinion.  I would love to hear them if they are well thought out, explained in detail, have little or no misspelled words, use proper formatting and punctuation and are free of profanity.  Thanks everyione and happy MMOing!

1. PvP is essential.  Have it.  Do it right.  What is "right"?  Semi-FFA.  Not having PvP isn't fun for those that like it. FFA PvP is a bigger pain.  Mix the two.  Allow any player to attack any other player under certain conditions.  What are these conditions?  I have several I've thought of, but I'm sure others could think of plenty to.

2. RvR is just a form of PvP.  RvR shouldn't be in designated areas, it should be in any town/city.  Doesn't mean it will be easy, but it will be possible to take over any other place.  In fact, you could force an entire faction to be without a capital...until they take it back by force.  At any rate, have large scale RvR type PvP.

3. No levels is a great thing. 

4. Forced Grouping.  Players should have plenty to do on their own, but they are only a single piece in a massive puzzle, in order to finish it, they need to work with others.  However, there shouldn't be a massive need to have raid size groups for anything.

5. Support large group play but get rid of the grinding aspects of it.  The term raiding shouldn't exist, but you should be able to group with lots of other people if you choose.

6. Deep crafting systems that allow for a player to never have to fight.  Players can choose to not worry about a life of adventuring and build for themselves a comfortable life selling or trading goods or services.

7. Make sure your classes aren't balanced against each other.  No, that doesn't mean one class should be better than any other.  Design classes so a diverse group can always more effectively fight than a group made up of all the same types of people.

8. Travel should depend on setting, but there should be more to travel than follow X path to Y city.  A death penalty should be a proper mix of light and heavy-handedness.  Encourage players to try new things and die a few times, but don't make it so that you can die indefinitely without having to worry about anything, that's how stupidity is born.

9. Mix loot. Not all loot is from mobs, but some mobs will have loot.  Not all gear can be made in crafting but craftable gear should be useful.  Gear doesn't drop from mobs.  Money should be available but the economy should be based solely on players.  There should be no vendor trash.

10. It should be fun, but it needs to be careful not to be shallow as well.

One idea that has been thrown around with regards to mob loot is that when you kill the mob it respawns somewhere else in the dungeon or area.  That way you can't just sit on top of it.  The problem would be figuring out how to randomize it enough so that a group of people couldn't have all the possible areas covered.  Personally I think this would work great and would also add some danger as you might be working your way some where alone and bamb a boss mob pops up in front of you.

I agree on no forced group and raiding.

Clarify:  NO FORCED *ZERG* RAIDING.  MAKE THE RAIDS SMALL.  TWO GROUPS. THREE MOST! And, do not make us raid like more than once a week.  Hell, I would prefer to raid just once in a while!

I enjoy grouping with family and friends and making friends through grouping, but I DO NOT WANT TO GROUP ALL THE TIME!

And, do not make the groups 6 people.  I think the reason why I enjoy Vanguard so much is that duos, trios, and quads work great.

Very well written post OP, I disagree with you a bit about open PVP, but otherwise your points are all quite valid and would make for a very good game.

I would add one point.... the game should decide on what the target market is for their game, design it accordingly and stay true to that target for the duration of the game.  No one can develop a game that appeals to everyone, so if you start out making an RVR focused game, don't try to add subs by adding large scale PVE content, especially if it forces the regular crowd to change the way they enjoy their game (hellooooo Mythic, I'm sure you learned your lesson on this one)

One thing that was really cool about SWG back in the day was mobs pretty much droped crap and there really wasnt any non-player run venders, you had to buy from players to get anything of any value except maybe some things to decorate your house(you know broken datapads, and broken weapons were a hot addition to any living room). A good crafter/guild of crafters would be well know server wide and be very very rich.

wow !! you guys must have sprained your fingers typing that lot  

Why do people always state that grouping=raiding?

Originally posted by sonicsix

NO PvP but Yes to RvR.  

I cannot stress this enough.  MMO doesn't mean grouping, it means it's a big game that many people play online.

make it so crafters make cooler looking items.

IT MUST BE FUN!  The game must be fun  

Now I am sure many won't agree but that's OK

A big game that has RvR but no PvP, it's fun and crafters make cool items.

Who plays this?

"Many people online".

I agree with a lot of what the op wrote,

I feel PvP is important tho, yet needs to be done well- should be balanced and fun.  You will win some and lose some, deal with it.   I also like the idea of no levels.  I hate to grind, but I also don't want my hard earned levels trivialized. 

I agree with with you 100% sonicsix. No more MMO copy fever. Lately it seems almost all the MMOs are just carbon copies of older, and sometimes even newer, ones. A refreshing idea like yours would go a long way to keeping me around the MMO world.

Thread moved to "MMORPG Game Concepts".

1. PvP.  - PvP needs to be in any game, it is much harder to kill something that a person is controlling vs something that a computer is controlling.  Ganking is always going to be a problem but Ganking can also be solved by a good community.  A good community will flag the gankers and cause them alot of hardships.   It comes down to the community of a game.  If they want to stop people from ganking, they need to step up and stop it.  Dont whine about it, do something about it.  Example of Player A has been flagged as a ganker in the community, then the community no longer sells or trades with this player, does not group with him, does not allow him to advance, he is now KoS to all players in that community. 

2. Yes RvR.  - RvR is great if their are goals that must be accomplished, but at the sametime is must evolve.  If your goal is to take a castle stronghold and you are successful then it should allow that Realm to become very powerful.  Example you take over the goal of a RvR battle. now that RvR battle is moved further into the realm that lost...If the one realm keeps winning they should be able to take over the world.. the other Realms will need to find hidden bases to lauch attacks and start making allies with the other Realms.  It should effect the whole world not just the zone/area the battles are in.

3. NO LEVELS.  - I dont know, Skill based games are fun but how are you going to be able to judge a Vet player from a noob player? Lets say you want to get a bunch of Vets to go kill this Dragon in this cave system and you need to make sure that your group has certain skills and spells.  How are you going to tell if that player has them?  Not everyone is honest when asked.  So now you have a group ready to go but one of your group memebers doesnt have the skills/spells he needs to help with the killing of the dragon.  Now you have to start all over and hope you find honest people.  Again that all comes back to Community.

4. NO FORCED GROUPING.  - I agree 100% that every MMO should have solo content but someone that solo's and never groups should not get the same benefits that someone that groups all the time.  A solo person should get equipment and weapons that help with solo content but they should be limited in getting highend items.  How fair is it that a group goes in and defeats a high lvl mob and gets great loot, then to watch a solo player come in and kill the same high lvl mob and get the same great item?  Its not.  I know life is not fair but you need to have certain areas and events that require a group.  If their is no reason to group at all then why would you group?  Why would you even bother joining a guild if you can get everything solo?  You could even socialize without a guild still.  Again Forced grouping is something that has to be in a game or you defeat the reason to join forces.

5. NO RAIDING.  - This is just stupied.  How can you have a MMo and not have raiding?  What would be the point? I love raiding not for loot but for the challege.  The things I remember most about the MMO's I played were the raid kills.  I could careless about if I get loot or not, the fact that it took 30 people to down that dragon is the fun part... We all had to work together, be on the same page to win, if even one person screwed up or decided not to bring their A game, we lose, that is a great feeling..... Its like saying Winning in sports that require team work is worthless unless you get a cool trophy.  Winning an event is a reward not the loot you get. the Loot is an extra bonus nothing more and nothing less

6. CRAFTING.  - I am not a huge crafter but I think that all items in the game should come from crafting or be upgrading though crafting. Example.  We go out and kill uber dragon 15 and it drops super weapon of death 87, the weapon is nice but it is not worth using because it only has damage on it, but now you take that weapon to the local crafter and they can make it into the badass weapon it can be by using stuff that is looted while out killing.  Basicly any item that is dropped in the game can only reach its maxium stats if a crafter gets involved.  The epic weapons and Armor are all constructed with the help of Crafters, the better the crafter the better the item.. Some items can be upgraded more then once, some items take alot of time to upgrade but become the best items in the game.

7. CLASS BALANCE.  - Class Balance is worthless because not everyone will be happy EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.  If you pick a Warrior because you want to be able to duel wield and tank then cool, but dont complain that the local Pally can stun a mob but cannot duel wield..... A pally and a Warrior should be interchangeable in groups, same with casters and healers.  I think that ever class should have their nich and bring something new to the Table.  I dont think that all the class should be the same.  I think if you invite say a Wizard into the group, then you should expect high Direct damage but if you invite a Necromancer to the group, then you should expect high damage over time.  Both do good damage but which one will help yoru group? Both of them because they are both damage dealers but they do damage in different ways.... If a Wizard does more damage then a Necromancer but the Necromancer can drain Life and magic and share with the group then it works out even.   I guess what I am saying is that each class should have something different to bring to the table but one class maybe better one vs one.

8. TRAVEL AND DEATH. Travel and Death.  Well first off I am a true beleive that Death should sting, you should absolute hate dieing.  Dieing should be the worst thing that could happen to you.  You should have to do everything in your power not to die.  Exp Lose, Corpse runs, Death loops, item lost are all ways to reach that goal.  I personally thing that if you Die, then you should have to start off with basic items and have to figure out how to get your corpse back, if could be a corpse run, or get another player to summon or do a quest that will return you to your spirit.   Example, I am with a group and I die deep deep in a cave system, their is no chance I can get down their myself and my group calls it a night.  Well I am screwed right?  Wrong, what if I could go to an NPC and request a spirit quest.  The quest would take me a 15 - 20 minutes to complete but would return my body and items to were I finished the quest. I think that would solve this whole issue fearing death and fearing losing a corpse.   Travel never really bothered me, I dont mind running along way to go do something.  Some classes should be able to port to certain locations and boats, mounts should be in places but I dont think it should be instant travel.   Maybe Wizards and Druids could port to certian areas but would only have a limited number of port spells per 24 hour game period, or a long cool down.  Maybe after completeing a long quest a NPC spawns that will allow you to travel to were you want, but it is a one time thing..... Maybe crafters could craft items that would allow you travel but would cost alot to recharge... Their are many many ways to limit travel time but also make you feel like you are part of the world.

9. LOOT AND MONEY.  As I said above all loot should have to go though a refining process though crafters.  Money should be a secondary focus, Money should buy certain items.  Money has never been an issue in any MMO I ever played, it was a timesink if anything.

10. IT MUST BE FUN! - I agree 100%,  but what is fun to me might not be fun to the next player.  What I find fun you may hate, again it comes down to the type of player you are.

These are my opinions, and I dont care if you agree or disagree but as a MMO player since 1999, I know what I like in games and I know what I dont like in games.  Honestly that is how everyone should be, What you WANT IN A GAME, MAY NOT BE WHAT I WANT IN A GAME.    

this thread seems to be WOW/EQ/LINEAGE centric - in that all the issues raised only relate to this ilk of game but none the less I would like to add my own opinion.

1 - NO PVP - well guildwars won game of the year last year and it has the best pvp which is still superbly balanced even after many changes over 2 years. If a game has ganking there are usually options to play on servers which are non pvp - but if you do not wish to play a game with no pvp then LOTRonline is very like wow and pvp is optional near the game end.

2 - RvR - as mentioned this is simply another style of pvp. If you like this and not other forms of pvp you have created a paradox for yourself.

3 - No levels - leveling is the bane of all class based  games. again Guildwars has reduced this to a minimum in that leveling to max 20 is relatively enjoyable and does not take months (i have done it in a week with several characters). It is true that the game is best at max level (like WOW) but with much less grind. Grind is in games to keep the player in the game. It is a cheap unpleasant game mechanic. A skills based game is always preferable e.g. Ryzom, Eve, Project Entropia, etc). To relfect the growing developement of a character skills increase as they are used by the player.

4 - No forced grouping - one of the few good things about games like WOW is that you do NOT need to group but I prefer the games where this is of benefit to you. guildwars has tackled this problem to some extent allowing you to attempt any instanced missions with a group of npc (now customized by you) which resolves the waiting time - a real turn off for casual players who should maybe stick to pc games?

5 - no raiding - I have only raided in LOTRonline but found the experience very enjoyable - a large group co-operating was a new and interesting experience despite the poor game play one associates with those games that offer raiding.

6 - crafting - for those that like this to be central to their game experience i have no issue with that. I have only been impressed with the crafting system found in Guildwars although Project Entropia probably offers the most complete and real crafting system - i.e. items you make sell for real money as well as in game money.

7 - class balance - class systems are as pointless as level systems. A skills based system removes the need for classification. with regards balancing the notion that a level 40 character should have many more hit points than a new character is unrealistic. The only modification to hit points should be size, race, magick mods, maybe unlocked features and training. This is what keeps the balance. What advocates skill progression is that dodge, parry and roll skills replace a hit point count down (watching a player take hundreds of hits to take him down is as far from reality as you an get - even art must immitate reality! mmorpg designs fail to do this because of the evolutionary cul-de-sac. Most real fights (except in boxing rings!) only last a minute or 2. A deciding hit is the key factor. If ROMA VICTOR ever got made it would prove the point. so even the greatest hero could get taken out by a bear which got a lucky critical hit and the hero failed his parry and dodge or got hit from behind! 

8 - travel - no comment on travel - some times long distance make a game some times they FUBAR it.

But, I for one, advocate perma-death. any penalty for death is not good enough. If you get killed that is the end of the line for you. My theory is that you simply design a game that makes dying benficial. for example ( a basic one to convey idea) your avator dies of a certain type of plague. OK - you have to make a new character from an ever growing family tree but your next character has plague resistance unlocked. So as each character progresses through the game he unlocks new features that are only available for the next avator in the family tree. The ultimate unlock would be resurrection! In stead of killing 100 mice to unlock a feature if you die 100 times you unlock the feature in stead - if i have to kill "x" number of animals once more I swear I will go out to my local pub and machete all the drinkers inside to death LOL (I dramatise to make a point folks!). Perma-death was good enough for RP before mmorpg and should be good enough during!!!!

9 - loot and money - this is a good point and some what tricky to tackle. farming is the bane of many games so how to remove it without effecting the genuine players? I would argue that items should be specific to an avator but in a perma death style game other family members could inherit all items aquired in game. Guild wars is among the best examples again of how this would work. Loot should be random to prevent farming a spawn having a bigger and more random arena to spawn in. Even better would be random creature encounters (which Guildwars has attempted - bosses are not always in the same place and in fact bosses not always the same either! Further more bosses in guildwars unlock skills not items making the skills valuable and items coincidental). Loot and crafted items are generally given too much power and I would like to see a game where you keep a weapon the whole way through the game and simply buff it up with crafters or with other loot.

10 - the definition of a game is to have set rules to compete within. The fun factor is down to individual taste and while many will find the idea of perma-death the anthisis of fun others would say that true life and death situations inject paramount fun! It's only a game!

all those in favour of revolutionising the stale industry that is mmorpg today say AYE!

Originally posted by sonicsix

First, I am not implying this is what everyone wants but from my experience online since the days of BBS's... I do think it is fair to say that I have a good indication of what "some" people want out of an MMO.  So here goes...

I don't have all the answers, but I'd like to pretend that I do. Immediate sarcasm aside, I'll see if I can add to the discussion here.

1. NO PvP.  Complaining because you can gank, complaining because you can't gank, the whining about every minute detail, the cries for nerfs of this or that class, the cries for nerfs of this or that weapon or armor piece, the never ending quest for class balance, the hilarious epeen wagging.... it's just not worth it.  Many times I see a game I think I might like but if it offers PvP or a PvP mix, I immediately lose interest (as do many others).  How many pure PvP games out there were mega hits?  WoW was even OK until the focus went to PvP and people either started leaving or looking to leave.

What's so bad about PvP? Online gaming is about competing with other people over the world and to test skills, or simply interact with them. Without any PvP at all, I'm sure the game woud capture the interest of very few. After all, what makes a game fun for many is the prospect of open combat competition.

2. Yes RvR.  This is awesome if done properly.  Have an area where everyone goes to RvR.  There needs to be a goal to achieve such as taking a castle, defending a fort, etc.  Some people like offense, some defense... make it so both are always available.  It's no fun when one side dominates another for weeks/months on end.  Make safe places where people can go AFK if need be, make it so if just ONE guy is there there is something for him to do and not have to wait for other people to show up.  Siege weapons, ranged weapons, tactics, players and NPCs intermixed to make for  a fun yet challenging RvR experience. 

This is PvP on a massive scale, as you know. There doesn't always have to be RvR if you run the whole game on a giant server cluster. Everyone's int he same world so there's no server confusion, and progress made there will remain constant, instead of varying between 'alternate dimensions'.

However, yes, RvR is important for multi-sever MMORPGs. I would like to think that maybe the different servers could be part of a story line, perhaps. An evil server and a good server, for example. They share worlds or territory between them and compete for it in RvR. When an area is claimed by one side, that side may use it more openly (it has easy access for the winning side and easier mobs / better drops, and difficult access for the losing side with more difficult mobs).

Just a theory.

3. NO LEVELS.  You make a character and you don't gain levels, you get more powerful by earning weapons, armor, abilities, skills, traits, titles, enhancements, etc.  With leveling you undoubtedly have the level grind... not fun.  Players think the game doesn't start until you reach the max level.   A big plus is no low level content to code, developers can focus on content that every single player can have access to  as soon as they buy the game. 

This has been suggested time and time again. "No leveling, no grinding, no goal or higher purpose." Why? I really want to know this... do you want instant gratification? Do you want to ignore adventure and simply have the top right at the start? From what I know, nobody plays a game that's too easy or requires no effort. Five minutes into playing and you think, "I've mastered this, how boring."

"Content" is a very broad term used by developers, it simply means "stuff in the game." Whether or not there are levels in the game, it doesn't take off work from us. We still have to create the same amount of content (if not larger amounts without levels, which may end up making things more difficult to program) to attract players. Changing the structure of a game never means there's less content to make unless you want to have less of a game.

4. NO FORCED GROUPING.  I cannot stress this enough.  MMO doesn't mean grouping, it means it's a big game that many people play online.  It is very frustrating to sit on your butt LFG for an hour when you only had an hour to play that day.  I like to play solo, but with others.  Yep, I want every bit of content to be able to be done without the help of someone else.  I want to be able to do everything in the game by myself but with available chat channels.  I can ask for hints, just chat or whatever while I am working to improve my character.  And best of all is no sitting around with a group missing a healer and wasting 3 hours trying to find one.  If people want to group, make some content for that if you must... but DO NOT make the loot you get from it one smidgen better than what the solo player can get on his own!  have a big city or gathering area where everyone can show off their achievements... we all know this one thing is why so many play MMOs.  Have social events, interactive things among players in this social area... make it so it's sometimes just fun to hang out there for a few hours and not just be out working on your character.

Yes, no forced grouping indeed. Why not give benefits to grouping? Perhaps better drops will come about more often, experience bonuses instead of penalties could be included... maybe even special events in dungeons and so on.

5. NO RAIDING. No one raids for fun, even though some claim to.  If the raid netted zero loot then I can guarantee that no one would be going on that raid.  MMOs seem to think that raiding is the premier way to get the best gear, well time to start thinking outside the box.  Make a nice, long, multi-stage quest that awards the best loot.  make the appearance of weapons and armor very customizable so even though we all may have the same gear after 5 years of playing, you won't be able to tell by looking at us. 

You can't make that generalization. I raided in SWG for fun while it was fun. I also raided in WoW until I reached 'end-game', and PvP was fun there for the three months I played a long time ago. I'm not sure if by "most MMOs" you mean "WoW only" or if this is a continuation of your rather insulting generalization.

RvR can be considered a kind of raiding. A bunch of people fighting together for the same cause in the same group... sounds like a raid to me. Raiding does not need follow a single constraint pertaining to the dominant online game on the market.

6. CRAFTING.  Some like it, some don't.  Make it optional but don't make it so crafters make BETTER items, make it so crafters make cooler looking items but with the same stats as questable items or mob drops.  (Perhaps the crafted version of UberSword01 is flaming whereas the mob dropped one is not.)

Why not offer a chance for both combatants and crafters to get along? Say, crafters can make basic items pretty well, even some advanced stuff that goes well with looted things. Perhaps combat loot could include item parts or components that crafters can use to make better-than-average items. This way, combat players can sell their loot for a meaningful purpose, or take that stuff to a crafter to have it made into some nice gear for free or a low price.

Isn't that better than combat players hunting bags of items, gold, and xp in an indepentand solo venture without a purpose? Crafters don't feel left out either, and they don't have to take up the boring task of fighting inanimate mineral nodes all day.

 In games like EQ2 and WoW, crafting is simply a distraction that only serves as a time and money-sink. Nobody likes wasting time on things that serve no purpose to their desires. Some hate crafting, but those that do would like something other than being "auxiliary" to everything. The trick is to make crafting less boring and redundant and offer the same satisfaction as combat. It's been done before, and it may happen again.

7. CLASS BALANCE.  Make it so there isn't a clear cut "best class" or "best race" to roll.  Make each one viable in it's own right but with different battle abilities and tactics, different skill sets, etc... but not so "oh you gotta be a Fiery Leather Battlemage to be worthwhile".  Your character should be equal to any other at the start but differs later on what skills and abilities you earn, what quests you choose to do for weapons and gear, etc.  No penatlies to a certain race because it is short, no penalty to charisma beause one race is ugly, this only leads to "this race/class is best" syndrome.

There's an easy solution to this: remove classes altogether. Instead offer the player to chance to choose what best fits his play style based on what he does (a skill-based system), with a few loosely-based classes that can be taken up later to concentrate effort into the part of the game that is most enjoyable for them.

Races should always have an advantage to certain abilities. The trick is balancing abilities enough so that the minor bonuses don't outshine anything, and so each race has one very good ability that defines their culture.

8. TRAVEL AND DEATH.  Running somewhere for 15 real life minutes is not fun, but again getting anywhere instantly is not the answer.  Have quests that award run speed bonuses or mounts with varying speeds.  About DEATH - no corpse runs, no experience loss on death, no durability costs EVER on gear... death in an MMO should be a minor setback, not an ALT-F4 then screaming tantrum because you know what you have to do before you can be back to where you were before you died.  I played LoTRO until I was walking merrily along and BAM, you have been slain by "misadventure".  /boggle   I logged out, cancelled my account and haven't been back.

I think that the world should be detailed enough to where you don't want to skip it all, and offer the possibility of, well... adventure. Massive worlds are mean't to be explored by yourself or with friends and must never be a guided experience dictated by quests or paths. Roads only tell you which way goes to civilization... that's boring, the fun is in the unknown and possible danger, and I've spent a long time working with some good people to help create such a world.

I understand the fear of death when things are very difficult to procure; things such as money and gear. Gear is expensive to repair due to the lack of funds, and gear is difficult to replace due to its rarity and how powerful it makes your character. 

Here's a quick suggestion:

Remove the extreme need for gear, allow players to choose whether or not to look cool or wear the best available. 'Newbs" are still a threat to a decked-out veteran, but not so much that he would break a sweat over an encounter like that, after all, he's experienced and has better gear. A fresh newb has a chance at defeating a seasoned foe, although it may take a lot of effort and tact on his part.

Death must have penalties, however. For example: if you die in PvP, your stuff is untouched (but the other guy can loot you and take semi-broken copies of your things useful more for salvaged components than actual combat). If you die in PvE without player intervention, then that was foolish, and your stuff takes unrepairable damage. After a few deaths (10-20 or so) your stuff is broken permanently and you'll be reimbursed for your loss (insurance, if you will), you can also have it re-built by a crafter from components salvaged from the heap of junk that was your old equipment. 

Why not? It's better than no penalty at all or losing everything. Keeps crafters happy too.

9. LOOT AND MONEY.  First about loot - this one is very debateable.  It is nice to know that GreenMob00 drops the Chestplate of  Hardee's but that encourages camping - argghh I just had an Everquest flashback.  World drop is very unreliable as one guy may get one in 1 kill whereas the next guy won't get one after 7 months of playing.  Suggestions are welcomed on this!  Perhaps you get a point when you kill a monster and you can then spend those points on gear or abilities?  Now about MONEY - ahh how to fend off the notorious gold farmers.  I really need suggestions on this issue.... in detail please.

What you see is what you get, as they say. It's also a system borrowed from The Elder Scrolls series. You kill someone, you get all their broken stuff. Mostly useless, unless it was a boss. Well, take that system and remove nearly all usefulness in looted items from generic NPCs and mobs, that way it would be more profitable to salvage them for crafting components or vendor them than to be used as equipment.

Suggestion for anti-'gold' farming: remove areas with high-yield tags. Another problem is that game economies are easily exploited by how small and linear they are. Offering a very diverse way of getting things is a brain-dead easy way of doing it (NPC offer good items too, so prices don't get out of control and things remain afforadble; crafters have a purpose instead of simply being secondary to combat grinding; and quests offer better, long-term rewards, influencing more people to participate in the fun and possibly making gear easier to obtain).

10. IT MUST BE FUN!  The game must be fun, players must want to play it and be able to play for 5 minutes or 10 hours in one sitting.  Farming is not fun, reputation grinding is not fun, running the same instance over and over is not fun!   Remember this above all else is entertainment.  it shouldn't be a second job.  

It should definitely not be a second job. What is fun, though? Raph Koster thinks fun is a pattern in which you take joy from repeating. Finding a renewable pattern is a problem for most developers, since most have already been exhausted.

In order to entertain a wide audience with games today, however, the 'old school' developers are relying on expanding content by recycling the same thing repeatedly with a new texture and name. Apparently, this method has proven very innefective with the exception of WoW and LoTRO.

So there's that, my incomplete opinion that will hopefully incite a riot or more discussion. ^_^

Now I am sure many won't agree but that's OK... I repsect your opinion.  I would love to hear them if they are well thought out, explained in detail, have little or no misspelled words, use proper formatting and punctuation and are free of profanity.  Thanks everyione and happy MMOing!

i liek 2 speel an yuz propper werdz n stuf lolz!!!!!!!1!1!!ONE!!1!

Games should be fun, unlike this giant block of red text I wrote.

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

 

 

Originally posted by sonicsix

First, I am not implying this is what everyone wants but from my experience online since the days of BBS's... I do think it is fair to say that I have a good indication of what "some" people want out of an MMO.  So here goes...

I don't have all the answers, but I'd like to pretend that I do. Immediate sarcasm aside, I'll see if I can add to the discussion here.

1. NO PvP.  Complaining because you can gank, complaining because you can't gank, the whining about every minute detail, the cries for nerfs of this or that class, the cries for nerfs of this or that weapon or armor piece, the never ending quest for class balance, the hilarious epeen wagging.... it's just not worth it.  Many times I see a game I think I might like but if it offers PvP or a PvP mix, I immediately lose interest (as do many others).  How many pure PvP games out there were mega hits?  WoW was even OK until the focus went to PvP and people either started leaving or looking to leave.

What's so bad about PvP? Online gaming is about competing with other people over the world and to test skills, or simply interact with them. Without any PvP at all, I'm sure the game woud capture the interest of very few. After all, what makes a game fun for many is the prospect of open combat competition.

2. Yes RvR.  This is awesome if done properly.  Have an area where everyone goes to RvR.  There needs to be a goal to achieve such as taking a castle, defending a fort, etc.  Some people like offense, some defense... make it so both are always available.  It's no fun when one side dominates another for weeks/months on end.  Make safe places where people can go AFK if need be, make it so if just ONE guy is there there is something for him to do and not have to wait for other people to show up.  Siege weapons, ranged weapons, tactics, players and NPCs intermixed to make for  a fun yet challenging RvR experience. 

This is PvP on a massive scale, as you know. There doesn't always have to be RvR if you run the whole game on a giant server cluster. Everyone's int he same world so there's no server confusion, and progress made there will remain constant, instead of varying between 'alternate dimensions'.

However, yes, RvR is important for multi-sever MMORPGs. I would like to think that maybe the different servers could be part of a story line, perhaps. An evil server and a good server, for example. They share worlds or territory between them and compete for it in RvR. When an area is claimed by one side, that side may use it more openly (it has easy access for the winning side and easier mobs / better drops, and difficult access for the losing side with more difficult mobs).

Just a theory.

3. NO LEVELS.  You make a character and you don't gain levels, you get more powerful by earning weapons, armor, abilities, skills, traits, titles, enhancements, etc.  With leveling you undoubtedly have the level grind... not fun.  Players think the game doesn't start until you reach the max level.   A big plus is no low level content to code, developers can focus on content that every single player can have access to  as soon as they buy the game. 

This has been suggested time and time again. "No leveling, no grinding, no goal or higher purpose." Why? I really want to know this... do you want instant gratification? Do you want to ignore adventure and simply have the top right at the start? From what I know, nobody plays a game that's too easy or requires no effort. Five minutes into playing and you think, "I've mastered this, how boring."

"Content" is a very broad term used by developers, it simply means "stuff in the game." Whether or not there are levels in the game, it doesn't take off work from us. We still have to create the same amount of content (if not larger amounts without levels, which may end up making things more difficult to program) to attract players. Changing the structure of a game never means there's less content to make unless you want to have less of a game.

4. NO FORCED GROUPING.  I cannot stress this enough.  MMO doesn't mean grouping, it means it's a big game that many people play online.  It is very frustrating to sit on your butt LFG for an hour when you only had an hour to play that day.  I like to play solo, but with others.  Yep, I want every bit of content to be able to be done without the help of someone else.  I want to be able to do everything in the game by myself but with available chat channels.  I can ask for hints, just chat or whatever while I am working to improve my character.  And best of all is no sitting around with a group missing a healer and wasting 3 hours trying to find one.  If people want to group, make some content for that if you must... but DO NOT make the loot you get from it one smidgen better than what the solo player can get on his own!  have a big city or gathering area where everyone can show off their achievements... we all know this one thing is why so many play MMOs.  Have social events, interactive things among players in this social area... make it so it's sometimes just fun to hang out there for a few hours and not just be out working on your character.

Yes, no forced grouping indeed. Why not give benefits to grouping? Perhaps better drops will come about more often, experience bonuses instead of penalties could be included... maybe even special events in dungeons and so on.

5. NO RAIDING. No one raids for fun, even though some claim to.  If the raid netted zero loot then I can guarantee that no one would be going on that raid.  MMOs seem to think that raiding is the premier way to get the best gear, well time to start thinking outside the box.  Make a nice, long, multi-stage quest that awards the best loot.  make the appearance of weapons and armor very customizable so even though we all may have the same gear after 5 years of playing, you won't be able to tell by looking at us. 

You can't make that generalization. I raided in SWG for fun while it was fun. I also raided in WoW until I reached 'end-game', and PvP was fun there for the three months I played a long time ago. I'm not sure if by "most MMOs" you mean "WoW only" or if this is a continuation of your rather insulting generalization.

RvR can be considered a kind of raiding. A bunch of people fighting together for the same cause in the same group... sounds like a raid to me. Raiding does not need follow a single constraint pertaining to the dominant online game on the market.

6. CRAFTING.  Some like it, some don't.  Make it optional but don't make it so crafters make BETTER items, make it so crafters make cooler looking items but with the same stats as questable items or mob drops.  (Perhaps the crafted version of UberSword01 is flaming whereas the mob dropped one is not.)

Why not offer a chance for both combatants and crafters to get along? Say, crafters can make basic items pretty well, even some advanced stuff that goes well with looted things. Perhaps combat loot could include item parts or components that crafters can use to make better-than-average items. This way, combat players can sell their loot for a meaningful purpose, or take that stuff to a crafter to have it made into some nice gear for free or a low price.

Isn't that better than combat players hunting bags of items, gold, and xp in an indepentand solo venture without a purpose? Crafters don't feel left out either, and they don't have to take up the boring task of fighting inanimate mineral nodes all day.

 In games like EQ2 and WoW, crafting is simply a distraction that only serves as a time and money-sink. Nobody likes wasting time on things that serve no purpose to their desires. Some hate crafting, but those that do would like something other than being "auxiliary" to everything. The trick is to make crafting less boring and redundant and offer the same satisfaction as combat. It's been done before, and it may happen again.

7. CLASS BALANCE.  Make it so there isn't a clear cut "best class" or "best race" to roll.  Make each one viable in it's own right but with different battle abilities and tactics, different skill sets, etc... but not so "oh you gotta be a Fiery Leather Battlemage to be worthwhile".  Your character should be equal to any other at the start but differs later on what skills and abilities you earn, what quests you choose to do for weapons and gear, etc.  No penatlies to a certain race because it is short, no penalty to charisma beause one race is ugly, this only leads to "this race/class is best" syndrome.

There's an easy solution to this: remove classes altogether. Instead offer the player to chance to choose what best fits his play style based on what he does (a skill-based system), with a few loosely-based classes that can be taken up later to concentrate effort into the part of the game that is most enjoyable for them.

Races should always have an advantage to certain abilities. The trick is balancing abilities enough so that the minor bonuses don't outshine anything, and so each race has one very good ability that defines their culture.

8. TRAVEL AND DEATH.  Running somewhere for 15 real life minutes is not fun, but again getting anywhere instantly is not the answer.  Have quests that award run speed bonuses or mounts with varying speeds.  About DEATH - no corpse runs, no experience loss on death, no durability costs EVER on gear... death in an MMO should be a minor setback, not an ALT-F4 then screaming tantrum because you know what you have to do before you can be back to where you were before you died.  I played LoTRO until I was walking merrily along and BAM, you have been slain by "misadventure".  /boggle   I logged out, cancelled my account and haven't been back.

I think that the world should be detailed enough to where you don't want to skip it all, and offer the possibility of, well... adventure. Massive worlds are mean't to be explored by yourself or with friends and must never be a guided experience dictated by quests or paths. Roads only tell you which way goes to civilization... that's boring, the fun is in the unknown and possible danger, and I've spent a long time working with some good people to help create such a world.

I understand the fear of death when things are very difficult to procure; things such as money and gear. Gear is expensive to repair due to the lack of funds, and gear is difficult to replace due to its rarity and how powerful it makes your character. 

Here's a quick suggestion:

Remove the extreme need for gear, allow players to choose whether or not to look cool or wear the best available. 'Newbs" are still a threat to a decked-out veteran, but not so much that he would break a sweat over an encounter like that, after all, he's experienced and has better gear. A fresh newb has a chance at defeating a seasoned foe, although it may take a lot of effort and tact on his part.

Death must have penalties, however. For example: if you die in PvP, your stuff is untouched (but the other guy can loot you and take semi-broken copies of your things useful more for salvaged components than actual combat). If you die in PvE without player intervention, then that was foolish, and your stuff takes unrepairable damage. After a few deaths (10-20 or so) your stuff is broken permanently and you'll be reimbursed for your loss (insurance, if you will), you can also have it re-built by a crafter from components salvaged from the heap of junk that was your old equipment. 

Why not? It's better than no penalty at all or losing everything. Keeps crafters happy too.

9. LOOT AND MONEY.  First about loot - this one is very debateable.  It is nice to know that GreenMob00 drops the Chestplate of  Hardee's but that encourages camping - argghh I just had an Everquest flashback.  World drop is very unreliable as one guy may get one in 1 kill whereas the next guy won't get one after 7 months of playing.  Suggestions are welcomed on this!  Perhaps you get a point when you kill a monster and you can then spend those points on gear or abilities?  Now about MONEY - ahh how to fend off the notorious gold farmers.  I really need suggestions on this issue.... in detail please.

What you see is what you get, as they say. It's also a system borrowed from The Elder Scrolls series. You kill someone, you get all their broken stuff. Mostly useless, unless it was a boss. Well, take that system and remove nearly all usefulness in looted items from generic NPCs and mobs, that way it would be more profitable to salvage them for crafting components or vendor them than to be used as equipment.

Suggestion for anti-'gold' farming: remove areas with high-yield tags. Another problem is that game economies are easily exploited by how small and linear they are. Offering a very diverse way of getting things is a brain-dead easy way of doing it (NPC offer good items too, so prices don't get out of control and things remain afforadble; crafters have a purpose instead of simply being secondary to combat grinding; and quests offer better, long-term rewards, influencing more people to participate in the fun and possibly making gear easier to obtain).

10. IT MUST BE FUN!  The game must be fun, players must want to play it and be able to play for 5 minutes or 10 hours in one sitting.  Farming is not fun, reputation grinding is not fun, running the same instance over and over is not fun!   Remember this above all else is entertainment.  it shouldn't be a second job.  

It should definitely not be a second job. What is fun, though? Raph Koster thinks fun is a pattern in which you take joy from repeating. Finding a renewable pattern is a problem for most developers, since most have already been exhausted.

In order to entertain a wide audience with games today, however, the 'old school' developers are relying on expanding content by recycling the same thing repeatedly with a new texture and name. Apparently, this method has proven very innefective with the exception of WoW and LoTRO.

So there's that, my incomplete opinion that will hopefully incite a riot or more discussion. ^_^

Now I am sure many won't agree but that's OK... I repsect your opinion.  I would love to hear them if they are well thought out, explained in detail, have little or no misspelled words, use proper formatting and punctuation and are free of profanity.  Thanks everyione and happy MMOing!

i liek 2 speel an yuz propper werdz n stuf lolz!!!!!!!1!1!!ONE!!1!

 

Games should be fun, unlike this giant block of red text I wrote.

I like what you say about a veteran being susceptable to defeat at the hands of a newbie. Hit points/life/health should not increase dramatically with experience (or levels) but the skills to avoid defeat i.e. parry/dodge/roll/avoid should give the veteran a better chance to avoid damage but also a greater chance to hit or critical to do more damage to weaker players. This would be more plausable while giving a game a new type of balance.

This should include npc/monsters too so that probability and chance are key elements of combat and not the length of time a player has had to develope his avator. With better skills chance is affected in the favour of the more experienced but still gives a newbie/small mob a shot (however long)at victory. 

What do you think of perma-death? 

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

 

 

Originally posted by sonicsix

First, I am not implying this is what everyone wants but from my experience online since the days of BBS's... I do think it is fair to say that I have a good indication of what "some" people want out of an MMO.  So here goes...

I don't have all the answers, but I'd like to pretend that I do. Immediate sarcasm aside, I'll see if I can add to the discussion here. Ditto.

1. NO PvP.  Complaining because you can gank, complaining because you can't gank, the whining about every minute detail, the cries for nerfs of this or that class, the cries for nerfs of this or that weapon or armor piece, the never ending quest for class balance, the hilarious epeen wagging.... it's just not worth it.  Many times I see a game I think I might like but if it offers PvP or a PvP mix, I immediately lose interest (as do many others).  How many pure PvP games out there were mega hits?  WoW was even OK until the focus went to PvP and people either started leaving or looking to leave.

What's so bad about PvP? Online gaming is about competing with other people over the world and to test skills, or simply interact with them. Without any PvP at all, I'm sure the game woud capture the interest of very few. After all, what makes a game fun for many is the prospect of open combat competition.

PVP lends itself to horrible amounts of grief play that send players away in droves. This is what happend to UO. Remove most of the possibility of griefing and you're left with a broken dueling or group-warfare type system with instances in all likelihood.

2. Yes RvR.  This is awesome if done properly.  Have an area where everyone goes to RvR.  There needs to be a goal to achieve such as taking a castle, defending a fort, etc.  Some people like offense, some defense... make it so both are always available.  It's no fun when one side dominates another for weeks/months on end.  Make safe places where people can go AFK if need be, make it so if just ONE guy is there there is something for him to do and not have to wait for other people to show up.  Siege weapons, ranged weapons, tactics, players and NPCs intermixed to make for  a fun yet challenging RvR experience. 

This is PvP on a massive scale, as you know. There doesn't always have to be RvR if you run the whole game on a giant server cluster. Everyone's int he same world so there's no server confusion, and progress made there will remain constant, instead of varying between 'alternate dimensions'.

However, yes, RvR is important for multi-sever MMORPGs. I would like to think that maybe the different servers could be part of a story line, perhaps. An evil server and a good server, for example. They share worlds or territory between them and compete for it in RvR. When an area is claimed by one side, that side may use it more openly (it has easy access for the winning side and easier mobs / better drops, and difficult access for the losing side with more difficult mobs).

Just a theory.

RVR stuff is lag-o-matic-central. It almost always causes the server to grind to a halt. Maybe if there were dedicated servers where RVR took place it might be better, but then we're really talking about big instanced combat, right? That might be cool.

3. NO LEVELS.  You make a character and you don't gain levels, you get more powerful by earning weapons, armor, abilities, skills, traits, titles, enhancements, etc.  With leveling you undoubtedly have the level grind... not fun.  Players think the game doesn't start until you reach the max level.   A big plus is no low level content to code, developers can focus on content that every single player can have access to  as soon as they buy the game. 

This has been suggested time and time again. "No leveling, no grinding, no goal or higher purpose." Why? I really want to know this... do you want instant gratification? Do you want to ignore adventure and simply have the top right at the start? From what I know, nobody plays a game that's too easy or requires no effort. Five minutes into playing and you think, "I've mastered this, how boring."

"Content" is a very broad term used by developers, it simply means "stuff in the game." Whether or not there are levels in the game, it doesn't take off work from us. We still have to create the same amount of content (if not larger amounts without levels, which may end up making things more difficult to program) to attract players. Changing the structure of a game never means there's less content to make unless you want to have less of a game.

Eh. I agree. You have to have character development and you have to have a difference in the characters. Otherwise it gets boring as hell very quickly. Content means: "stuff to keep the players having fun and occupied". Like coloring books, swimming, or videos for kids.

There were no levels in UO, so what did people do? They macroed their asses off for hours at a time. It was WORSE than level grinding.

The problem is that a number of players want to be MAX_LEVEL in the shortest period of time. Another portion doesn't like being lorded over by these people, so they try to catch up.

And developers save and develop the best content for the end-game, so the players have something to fight towards, which breeds racing to get to the "cool stuff" and seeing everything else as worthless.

4. NO FORCED GROUPING.  I cannot stress this enough.  MMO doesn't mean grouping, it means it's a big game that many people play online.  It is very frustrating to sit on your butt LFG for an hour when you only had an hour to play that day.  I like to play solo, but with others.  Yep, I want every bit of content to be able to be done without the help of someone else.  I want to be able to do everything in the game by myself but with available chat channels.  I can ask for hints, just chat or whatever while I am working to improve my character.  And best of all is no sitting around with a group missing a healer and wasting 3 hours trying to find one.  If people want to group, make some content for that if you must... but DO NOT make the loot you get from it one smidgen better than what the solo player can get on his own!  have a big city or gathering area where everyone can show off their achievements... we all know this one thing is why so many play MMOs.  Have social events, interactive things among players in this social area... make it so it's sometimes just fun to hang out there for a few hours and not just be out working on your character.

Yes, no forced grouping indeed. Why not give benefits to grouping? Perhaps better drops will come about more often, experience bonuses instead of penalties could be included... maybe even special events in dungeons and so on.

*sigh* I was in this camp until recently. I think my stance would be... do not slant the mobs in the game directly against the character when he's solo. If a person can use cleverness to kill a mob, then so be it. PLEASE do not use the EQ2 asshole method of making the mob hit 2x as hard because he's been marked as "one player can't kill me haha". That pisses me off.

Also, do not make any single class of characters vital to the game unless it is striated to be so. For example: Fighters can kick ass and take names and NOT die when fighting A mobs. A cleric can do the same. A cleric and a fighter can fight 2xA mobs. So can 2 thieves or 1 wizzie and 1 thief and so on. The problem with this is... balance. It is almost impossible.

That being said, a group should be able to get better loot than single players, but not to the extent of EQ where an uberguild gets the sword of "I'm so uber" and the ring of "death is now pointless". EQ is dead to new players because no one can fight up the massive curve.

If the game is entirely solo, then you have a chat room enabled single-player game. Social events have failed miserably in the past in a number of games and most players will be playing and not socializing.

5. NO RAIDING. No one raids for fun, even though some claim to.  If the raid netted zero loot then I can guarantee that no one would be going on that raid.  MMOs seem to think that raiding is the premier way to get the best gear, well time to start thinking outside the box.  Make a nice, long, multi-stage quest that awards the best loot.  make the appearance of weapons and armor very customizable so even though we all may have the same gear after 5 years of playing, you won't be able to tell by looking at us. 

You can't make that generalization. I raided in SWG for fun while it was fun. I also raided in WoW until I reached 'end-game', and PvP was fun there for the three months I played a long time ago. I'm not sure if by "most MMOs" you mean "WoW only" or if this is a continuation of your rather insulting generalization.

RvR can be considered a kind of raiding. A bunch of people fighting together for the same cause in the same group... sounds like a raid to me. Raiding does not need follow a single constraint pertaining to the dominant online game on the market.

I think raiding might morph into shallower raids such that standing at the door, you could pick up a few guys and go finish X in a few minutes and get whatever gear. Make better gear take more pieces or whatever to assemble, but I think 40+ group raids like in EQ are dead.

6. CRAFTING.  Some like it, some don't.  Make it optional but don't make it so crafters make BETTER items, make it so crafters make cooler looking items but with the same stats as questable items or mob drops.  (Perhaps the crafted version of UberSword01 is flaming whereas the mob dropped one is not.)

Why not offer a chance for both combatants and crafters to get along? Say, crafters can make basic items pretty well, even some advanced stuff that goes well with looted things. Perhaps combat loot could include item parts or components that crafters can use to make better-than-average items. This way, combat players can sell their loot for a meaningful purpose, or take that stuff to a crafter to have it made into some nice gear for free or a low price.

Isn't that better than combat players hunting bags of items, gold, and xp in an indepentand solo venture without a purpose? Crafters don't feel left out either, and they don't have to take up the boring task of fighting inanimate mineral nodes all day.

 In games like EQ2 and WoW, crafting is simply a distraction that only serves as a time and money-sink. Nobody likes wasting time on things that serve no purpose to their desires. Some hate crafting, but those that do would like something other than being "auxiliary" to everything. The trick is to make crafting less boring and redundant and offer the same satisfaction as combat. It's been done before, and it may happen again.

The problem with crafting is... if the item is seen as vital to the character's well-being, then it needs to be on-hand and affordable. Make the items too easy, and the market gets flooded making crafters feel useless.

Make crafting too hard, and few do it, driving the price up so high no one can afford the items or pissing the crafters off.

If the crafters make better items, then a character with gold can buy anything he/she needs and bypasses most of the content and with it most of the fun.

If crafters make crap, then characters don't want it and crafters feel useless.

If crafters need to repair items, then that REALLY pisses off the players when one is not INSTANTLY and immediately available to fix the items.

If one kind of crafter is better or more usable or has better items than another... crafter war! It is ugly.

I don't really have a solution to the crafter thing, but none of the implementations I have seen successfully include the things I see to make crafting rewarding or fun.

7. CLASS BALANCE.  Make it so there isn't a clear cut "best class" or "best race" to roll.  Make each one viable in it's own right but with different battle abilities and tactics, different skill sets, etc... but not so "oh you gotta be a Fiery Leather Battlemage to be worthwhile".  Your character should be equal to any other at the start but differs later on what skills and abilities you earn, what quests you choose to do for weapons and gear, etc.  No penatlies to a certain race because it is short, no penalty to charisma beause one race is ugly, this only leads to "this race/class is best" syndrome.

There's an easy solution to this: remove classes altogether. Instead offer the player to chance to choose what best fits his play style based on what he does (a skill-based system), with a few loosely-based classes that can be taken up later to concentrate effort into the part of the game that is most enjoyable for them.

Races should always have an advantage to certain abilities. The trick is balancing abilities enough so that the minor bonuses don't outshine anything, and so each race has one very good ability that defines their culture.

If you remove classes though, everyone will gravitate to the "best" abilities and skills. Everyone will become pretty much a clone with little deviation. The "perfect" character will emerge. This happened in UO pretty much at day 1 and didn't let off.

I take the old D&D stance on races: make them all pretty much flavor. Give some small deviation, but players WILL min-max the best race and there will be very few of the outcasts.

8. TRAVEL AND DEATH.  Running somewhere for 15 real life minutes is not fun, but again getting anywhere instantly is not the answer.  Have quests that award run speed bonuses or mounts with varying speeds.  About DEATH - no corpse runs, no experience loss on death, no durability costs EVER on gear... death in an MMO should be a minor setback, not an ALT-F4 then screaming tantrum because you know what you have to do before you can be back to where you were before you died.  I played LoTRO until I was walking merrily along and BAM, you have been slain by "misadventure".  /boggle   I logged out, cancelled my account and haven't been back.

I think that the world should be detailed enough to where you don't want to skip it all, and offer the possibility of, well... adventure. Massive worlds are mean't to be explored by yourself or with friends and must never be a guided experience dictated by quests or paths. Roads only tell you which way goes to civilization... that's boring, the fun is in the unknown and possible danger, and I've spent a long time working with some good people to help create such a world.

I think EQ did world-building the best. Separate distinct areas that are different enough in tone and flavor that you would pretty much NEVER see them all. I spent years in EQ and never saw a number of zones.

That being said, big open areas like Vanguard or SWG stink. There is never anything in them. It is space for space's sake which is boring and a poor excuse for content.

I think greater distances should not be used at the higher levels, but more for greater reward areas; such as access quests leading you to more distant areas and finally to the "end" area for that train. Somewhat linear, but a good bit of fun in the traveling bit without going "clop clop clopity clop" like Vanguard.

I understand the fear of death when things are very difficult to procure; things such as money and gear. Gear is expensive to repair due to the lack of funds, and gear is difficult to replace due to its rarity and how powerful it makes your character. 

Here's a quick suggestion:

Remove the extreme need for gear, allow players to choose whether or not to look cool or wear the best available. 'Newbs" are still a threat to a decked-out veteran, but not so much that he would break a sweat over an encounter like that, after all, he's experienced and has better gear. A fresh newb has a chance at defeating a seasoned foe, although it may take a lot of effort and tact on his part.

Death must have penalties, however. For example: if you die in PvP, your stuff is untouched (but the other guy can loot you and take semi-broken copies of your things useful more for salvaged components than actual combat). If you die in PvE without player intervention, then that was foolish, and your stuff takes unrepairable damage. After a few deaths (10-20 or so) your stuff is broken permanently and you'll be reimbursed for your loss (insurance, if you will), you can also have it re-built by a crafter from components salvaged from the heap of junk that was your old equipment. 

Why not? It's better than no penalty at all or losing everything. Keeps crafters happy too.

I hate games with permadamage and enforced crafter visits. They are extremely un-fun and give reasons for griefing. The best penalty is time. Take away xp or whatever you like, but gear damage really pisses off players.

A heavy penalty also keeps people from exploring, which is very bad as it causes people to bypass content. Witness the failure of EQ2. No one played inside the dungeons when the full penalty was in place. Most people stayed at the doors because wipes were common and corpse runs were hellish. Same in EQ.

People tend to see their gear getting damaged as worse than losing time.

You have to have a death penalty, but no corpse runs and no equipment damage. (even temporary damage makes people (including me) angry as it is pointless running.)

Hell, have death lower status or something which alters access to quests. That'll really annoy people without being too harsh.

9. LOOT AND MONEY.  First about loot - this one is very debateable.  It is nice to know that GreenMob00 drops the Chestplate of  Hardee's but that encourages camping - argghh I just had an Everquest flashback.  World drop is very unreliable as one guy may get one in 1 kill whereas the next guy won't get one after 7 months of playing.  Suggestions are welcomed on this!  Perhaps you get a point when you kill a monster and you can then spend those points on gear or abilities?  Now about MONEY - ahh how to fend off the notorious gold farmers.  I really need suggestions on this issue.... in detail please.

What you see is what you get, as they say. It's also a system borrowed from The Elder Scrolls series. You kill someone, you get all their broken stuff. Mostly useless, unless it was a boss. Well, take that system and remove nearly all usefulness in looted items from generic NPCs and mobs, that way it would be more profitable to salvage them for crafting components or vendor them than to be used as equipment.

Yarg. The problem with this is from a game mechanics standpoint. It breeds thousands and thousands of items which bog things down. Character inventories become more of a problem too. All the swapping transactions tend to eat cpu cycles and take up time unless you want lots of duping and exploits. :(

Suggestion for anti-'gold' farming: remove areas with high-yield tags. Another problem is that game economies are easily exploited by how small and linear they are. Offering a very diverse way of getting things is a brain-dead easy way of doing it (NPC offer good items too, so prices don't get out of control and things remain afforadble; crafters have a purpose instead of simply being secondary to combat grinding; and quests offer better, long-term rewards, influencing more people to participate in the fun and possibly making gear easier to obtain).

On the obverse, if a player wants something made by a crafter and can't get it, then things get ugly. Players get fed up and leave. Doubly so if it is seen as "has to have".

Make vendor items too good and the crafters get left out and questing becomes useless. Vendor loot should be the very basic thing one could use until getting something better.

Players love mountains of gold. They love lots of shiny objects and big numbers.

10. IT MUST BE FUN!  The game must be fun, players must want to play it and be able to play for 5 minutes or 10 hours in one sitting.  Farming is not fun, reputation grinding is not fun, running the same instance over and over is not fun!   Remember this above all else is entertainment.  it shouldn't be a second job.  

It should definitely not be a second job. What is fun, though? Raph Koster thinks fun is a pattern in which you take joy from repeating. Finding a renewable pattern is a problem for most developers, since most have already been exhausted.

In order to entertain a wide audience with games today, however, the 'old school' developers are relying on expanding content by recycling the same thing repeatedly with a new texture and name. Apparently, this method has proven very innefective with the exception of WoW and LoTRO.

Repeating the same thing over and over does suck. A solution, which would be interesting and hasn't been done yet, would be a linked quest system, unique to each PLAYER, made up of common elements, and written at character generation. That player would be following his own personal quest with customized rewards from the beginning until the end game. The number of elements at each level could (and would) grow as the game expanded, making new players automatically go to new content and increasing playability. At different points on the "road", characters would meet for that particular challenge then either help each other (taking more time) or going off, sometimes to meet again!

Each character would have a unique story and the experiences would be varied enough that replayability would be fun and not the same thing... again.

At certain junctures there could even be duels, team vs team, or rvr combat where evil & good characters oppose each other.

I'm considering this for the design I'm dreaming up.

So there's that, my incomplete opinion that will hopefully incite a riot or more discussion. ^_^

And so it did, and ditto. :)

Now I am sure many won't agree but that's OK... I repsect your opinion.  I would love to hear them if they are well thought out, explained in detail, have little or no misspelled words, use proper formatting and punctuation and are free of profanity.  Thanks everyione and happy MMOing!

i liek 2 speel an yuz propper werdz n stuf lolz!!!!!!!1!1!!ONE!!1!

 

Games should be fun, unlike this giant block of red text I wrote.

Ibid

Originally posted by Endemondia

 

<SNIP>

 What do you think of perma-death? 

Perma-death is really bad because players quit very quickly when their characters and loot are gone. Like as in after the 1st death.

Lag, power storms, disconnects, bugs all lead to lost players.

Most players have a very low frustration threshold. (Me included. I wouldn't consider a perma-death game.)

The ONLY way I could see this working is if the character is given recompense for his lost goods in the form of gold AND credit for all experience earned. Then re-roll a new character.

The loss of identity would be enough of a penalty to make the game razor-sharp. Even that would be too frustrating for the majority of players.

I'm thinking that crafting should be making items and also improving them into new items, much like the crafting system in Monster Hunter (Monster Hunter is not a mmo    Go check it out if you have psp.)  Something like: http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/psp/file/928336/43920 

Originally posted by thenewplayer

I'm thinking that crafting should be making items and also improving them into new items, much like the crafting system in Monster Hunter (Monster Hunter is not a mmo    Go check it out if you have psp.)  Something like: http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/psp/file/928336/43920 

That was a neat faq. Never played the game, but the idea is interesting. I guess players could go on quests and return with an item or something to interface with a crafter who turns the item into something else.

However, you'd then have the problems with either theft (which is easily solved), faking if the weapon gets destroyed, cheese factor if it doesn't, and boring for the crafter if that is all he does. (Although people did play doctors and dance in bars in SWG...)

Although on the other hand if most things did that the crafter'd be busy as hell with a line waiting. How much to upgrade my 2 rings, 2 bracers, 2 earrings, pants, shoulders, back, helmet, sword, dagger, shield, my belt, gloves, um... arms, and chest plz? :)

Also crafters could make usable expendable items like potions, scrolls, wands, staves, and such. Or "make" and sell limited pets (which when they die, die). Or raise golems for sell or mounts or... well the list goes on if you want to be inventive about it.