Originally posted by Soraellion

Originally posted by itzit

Originally posted by cheshyrecat

Originally posted by Soraellion

Originally posted by cheshyrecat

Originally posted by itzit

Originally posted by Soraellion
If there's nothing to lose, what's the point in winning?

How do you Win any MMO.

you beat the big boss and complete the quest.  congrats you "won" (pick most any mmo)

You loot and pillage your opponents capital city.  congrats you "won" (WAR)

You capture x number of your opponents flags.  congrats you "won" (WoW)

deafeat your opponents in open combat.  congrats you "won" (Daoc, guildwars...ect)

 

does the game stop because you "won" a victory?  Nope.  or at least it doesn't have to.

 

You fail to get the point tbh, "winning" isn't winning the GAME, it's 'winning' the situation.

If you're in a tight spot in an MMO and things don't look good, having a (severe) death penalty makes the situation as such more believeable, it creates an emotion. You lost and you paid for that loss, as you now have an incentive NOT to die you learn from your mistakes and grow/evolve, making sure it won't happen again. Similarly if you're in a bad spot and still you somehow survive it (due to your earlier experience, as there's an incentive to learn) you feel victorious, again an emotion.

Death penalties make people think about their actions and strategies, ultimately you end up with better (team)players because they HAVE to. So; if you want to play an MMO with a lot of teamwork, where teamwork is required/favoured, where you'll meet good quality players, play the MMO with the most severe death penalty because Darwinism will take care of the people who can't play well and who can't work in a team. They will simply leave the game and when asked why they left they'll lie saying the game sucks blahblahblah, it doesn't suck, it's just that that game required effort, teamwork, thought and preparation which that person wasn't willing/able to do.

This is why you have alliances of over 10k people in EVE, this is why there's 1 ship in EVE called a Titan which will take a big alliance a LONG time of work, effort, minerals and all that to build it, AND IT GETS BUILD because of TEAMWORK, because you HAVE to have teamwork there, since if you don't you die. And since dieing in EVE is painful/costly people learn to work together. It's a rather simple yet powerful concept, sadly most people just want things easy and then start shouting about the quality of players they meet in their MMO's.

So again, what is the point in fighting a battle/mob/situation if there's no repercussion to losing?

lol

I agree.  thats what i was trying to tell Itzit.

I played EVE for about 5 months. Not long, but long enough to know the death penalty was to harsh for me. I lost a battleship and I lost sleep over it. That is not fun for me. I am not playing games to feel bad or lose sleep over.

But didn't the chance of losing your ship make the environment more 'real'? didn't you feel accomplishment when you flew somewhere or attacked something and you DIDN'T lose your ship? Didn't you have the drive to learn from that experience and better yourself from it, and if you did, didn't that as well feel like an accomplishment? Didn't all of a sudden the whole universe actually feel like it's BIG, because it takes effort to get somewhere? If there's no emotional attachment, what keeps you playing/entertained for so long?

Also, didn't you learn from your loss that you should never fly something you can't afford to lose? Wasn't this explained to you? didn't you read up on it? didn't you figure out the dangers you might run into while doing what you were doing? weren't you prepared? Were you alone? In other words; were you treating the game like an FPS?

In an MMORPG I want to 'feel'  the wrold that's being created, I want to be able to make it as 'real' as possible, and all of the things that make things more easy in an MMO (no death penalty, fast/insta travel and more things everyone wants to have to make the game take less effort) is actually a LOSS to the game environment. If people can insta travel you effectively shrink the gameworld, you deprive them from the feeling of being in that world, you deprive them of the option to interact with others while traveling and all that. Same with no deathpenalties, having none or very soft ones actually tear up the very IDEA of an MMORPG.

 

Hehe, actually my view on permadeath is that it's not really usable in a realtime environment, there's too many out of game problems (DC's, phonecalls, whatever) for permadeath to be a viable option. In turnbased games you do not have that problem (much less anyway), you have the time to think about your actions and all that before giving a command so there Permadeath would be viable.

guys we are talkin about COMPUTER GAMES. you are suppose to have fun with them not to take them too seriously.  some people like to have fun by jackin around in them. thats there problem if they want to jack around you can always just ignore them. some people realize that these are just games and dont take into account the consequences. they realize the truth that its just a game and the penaltys in it are just part of the game. it doesnt affect them in real life so why should they care? no matter what people will ignore the consequences and still do stupid things.  this applys to everything. you see shootouts and bombs goin off on the news? same thing they dont care about the consequences. but we are talkin about COMPUTER GAMES here.

thing about this also. you are payin a monthly fee to get your character to max lvl and to have fun and enjoy it. how many times have you had fun dying and playing even more just to get your xp back? i dont know about you guys but i never had fun with that. it delays you from the fun stuff at the end. if there is no fun stuff at the end why play the game? i dont like to be FORCED to play a game longer i should be able to play a game when i want to and as long as i want.  im also payin my money to put some of my time to play the game. when i die it makes sense to refund my money for the amount of time i put in for the xp i lost.  but they dont so they are sucking away money from us by makin these permament death penalties.

for all you guys who want to take risks and stuff. playing a COMPUTER GAME is not the same thing as skydiving and stuff like that. you are sitting in your room looking at a computer monitor not going outside and doin something that could kill you. how do you get a adrenaline rush out of looking at something off a monitor? i dont know about you guys but i just play games just to play them and enjoy them without fear of getting hurt or loosing something valuable. noone is gonna come and start beating the hell out of you for dying in a game. so why not play a game just to play it and to have fun without loosin anything?

Originally posted by ASmith84

guys we are talkin about COMPUTER GAMES. you are suppose to have fun with them not to take them too seriously.  some people like to have fun by jackin around in them. thats there problem if they want to jack around you can always just ignore them. some people realize that these are just games and dont take into account the consequences. they realize the truth that its just a game and the penaltys in it are just part of the game. it doesnt affect them in real life so why should they care? no matter what people will ignore the consequences and still do stupid things.  this applys to everything. you see shootouts and bombs goin off on the news? same thing they dont care about the consequences. but we are talkin about COMPUTER GAMES here.

thing about this also. you are payin a monthly fee to get your character to max lvl and to have fun and enjoy it. how many times have you had fun dying and playing even more just to get your xp back? i dont know about you guys but i never had fun with that. it delays you from the fun stuff at the end. if there is no fun stuff at the end why play the game? i dont like to be FORCED to play a game longer i should be able to play a game when i want to and as long as i want.  im also payin my money to put some of my time to play the game. when i die it makes sense to refund my money for the amount of time i put in for the xp i lost.  but they dont so they are sucking away money from us by makin these permament death penalties.

for all you guys who want to take risks and stuff. playing a COMPUTER GAME is not the same thing as skydiving and stuff like that. you are sitting in your room looking at a computer monitor not going outside and doin something that could kill you. how do you get a adrenaline rush out of looking at something off a monitor? i dont know about you guys but i just play games just to play them and enjoy them without fear of getting hurt or loosing something valuable. noone is gonna come and start beating the hell out of you for dying in a game. so why not play a game just to play it and to have fun without loosin anything?

Play EVE, be a trader in your hauler and go through low sec. Engage in PVP, take on a big ship in your little frigate, see you first gang warfare, see your 100th gangwarfare. All these aspects will get your adrenaline rushing, trust me.

The reason why you feel that it doesn't is because you play game with no penalties, not the other way round.

Originally posted by Bladin 

I hate dieing in games.  I loathe it, i'll use expensive potions, long cooldowns, various other tactics to stay alive even in a situation where im 10 feet from a "Graveyard".  Because losing is something i loathe.

Dieing to me means i've lost.  And wining in games is what i'm after.  I run from teams about to wipe, i see someone running at us with a intent to kill while teaming with a friend? i leave him as bait(unless i can kill the guy then its go time). 

Originally posted by JADEDRAG0N

Originally posted by Xtromass

Originally posted by cheshyrecat

Originally posted by JADEDRAG0N

Originally posted by ASmith84

 if i beat you playin chess do you automatically start sucking and forget how to play? so why does it make sense that when you die in a mmo that you should get weaker? if we are playing laser tag and my team wins would it make sense to give your team weaker guns? no it wouldnt. Terrable examples why not try mine. If i ran you through with a sword then cut off your head what ahppens to you?

i dont know about you guys but i dont like doin quests over and over just to get my guy to max lvl to do the real fun stuff. Thats called A.D.D loosin xp just postpones the fun stuff from you. i dont like that.  now if there is no fun stuff at max lvl then why you playin that game?

now for the no risk no reward, cant loose whats to win stuff. you already paid for the game and had to wait for it to install so your a looser at the beginning. playing it is the reward, winning, part because you are having fun with it.

for the get the noobs out of the game thing.  no matter what you do or where you do it there will be someone to mess it up.theres people who want to do somthing and others to mess it up its life get over it.

 

Whats the point of PvP or PvE if there isant some sort of Risk? And no a crappy WoW penalty of finding your body isant a penalty.

Its pretty obvious that all you ahve palyed is WoW no wonder you made such a terrable post.

I second that laugh!

And yu seconded that lack of Post it seems neither of you can find a valid reason to disagree with me so you try to deflate my responce with a childish responce

Try better next time Carebears

-PERMADEATH, but only if killed by a PC (with the exception of, let's say if you are questing or what not, and you get killed by the same type of mob more than 2 times, then by god, 3rd time you should die for good if you can't evolve, bye bye)

+

-HORIZONTAL progression

+

-The Best Crafting System Ever

+

-PVP with big red KILL button, so when you fight someone you can kick his ass but don't have to kill him (I realy miss that in current games, I like the chalenge of a good fight but I find it realy crappy that I need to kill someone to defeat him, I just want to kick his ass, take some things of him and say to him, hey pal, if you want theese back, look me up)

gimme gimme gimme

Originally posted by nikoliath
Exactly. And as mentioned, a harsh death penalty can prevent people from exploring or trying to engage in activities.

I hate getting killed especially by another PC and that in itself is penalty enough for me. Having then to add time, money and effort into getting myslef back to the point I was pre-death is loathsome. In Neocron for example after death some of your implants would fall out. Implants boosted certain stats allowing you to use higher lvl gear, which was essential. Replacing implants required skills, tools and matts. So in the event of death not only did you have to respawn away from the action you also had to find someone ( unless you had the 'implanting skill' which was governed by levels ) to put your implants in for you and then get back to your body to get any decent items back that you had dropped. Mix in the item decay factor and all in all this could produce an extremely miserable experience. Why?

Gankers, campers and the ( ever expanding ) antisocial populous.

Take the above example, you've been PK'd, you have ressurection 'sickness', some of your implants are out ( so you are even weaker ) and you have 'dropped' your decent, perhaps your ONLY decent weapon along with other items. So you need to get your stuff back, problem is that gank squad is waiting. Keep trying until you have nothing left, or log out?  Sure you can try and find help. or call upon guildies, but if no-one is around?

Some people live to inflct this misery upon others, as you can see from some of the replies here. They want you to suffer, they want you to drop your items.

I've done my time in MMO's that penalize you further for being defeated, lost many xp in AO. You 'insure' before you enter the mission, it's a tough one, you get to then very end or even on the way home and die *poof* all that xp gone, all that time wasted .

Death penalties, harsh ones atleast, are old hat.

The KEY word in your post is HARSH.  Yes your right, a HARSH dp sucks.  it doesn't add much of anything to the game.  If you read my previous post you'll understand my point.  Dying should cause you to lose large amounts of ANYTHING.  but there should be a penalty to motivate the player to avoid dying.  As a previous poster mentioned, death without a signifigant penalty becomes a method of transportation.  And that my friend is lame. 

Originally posted by ASmith84

 how many times have you had fun dying and playing even more just to get your xp back? 

when i die it makes sense to refund my money for the amount of time i put in for the xp i lost. 

Okay, point #1  I enjoy playing a game that involves chance.  would you play a game long if after paying your $$ you automatically achieved max level, max gear, and were in god mode constantly?  How long would you play when you realized that you can kill any all computer opponents?  How long would you play if PvP was a never ending fight that never stopped because after ppl 'die' they just stand back up with full health?  I'm guessing you'd play if for a few minutes...maybe a few hours and then you'd never play it again.

Point #2  you pay to play.  They don't promise you anything accept that you can play.  Thats it.  If you don't like the way the game plays then...don't pay.  it's just that easy.

Harsh death penalties exist so the game's publisher can implement yet another time/money sink in the game to keep you playing/paying longer.

People like harsh death penalties because it gives them the illusion of being "hardcore". It gives them the feeling of being better than someone they will never meet. The whole "risk/reward" argument is just a weak rationale to convince themselves and others that they are having fun by being screwed over.

The days of harsh death penalties are as dead as hardcore free for all PvP. Only the insane enjoy them and they stunt the growth of any and all MMOs that have them. MMO developers should NOT be encouraged to come up with new ways for us to hate their game, Sigil had to learn this lesson the hard way.

Believe it or not the overwhelming majority of people playing MMOs dont want to lose internet connection and die because of it to log back in and find that they lost: 10% exp, gear they had equipped, some gold AND now have to spend 5 minutes running back to their corpse.

Originally posted by Xiaoki

Harsh death penalties exist so the game's publisher can implement yet another time/money sink in the game to keep you playing/paying longer.

People like harsh death penalties because it gives them the illusion of being "hardcore". It gives them the feeling of being better than someone they will never meet. The whole "risk/reward" argument is just a weak rationale to convince themselves and others that they are having fun by being screwed over.

The days of harsh death penalties are as dead as hardcore free for all PvP. Only the insane enjoy them and they stunt the growth of any and all MMOs that have them. MMO developers should NOT be encouraged to come up with new ways for us to hate their game, Sigil had to learn this lesson the hard way. You should see eve then tons of content every year yet its a PvP game with the harshest D Penalty.

Believe it or not the overwhelming majority of people playing MMOs dont want to lose internet connection and die because of it to log back in and find that they lost: 10% exp, gear they had equipped, some gold AND now have to spend 5 minutes running back to their corpse. So you have questiond every MMO player have you? Gee you ahve a lt of time.

It's an extremely rare occurance for me to ever loss connection while playing an MMO, and I can only think of one occurance where it happened during PvP, in Pre CU SWG. I was a struggling Rifleman taking on a BH/CM, my death was already certain.

I'm a PvPer, I wasn't to start with but I found out that in MMOs the only real challenge came from players. When it comes to PvE the only difference between an easy mob and a high level mob was a combination of three things, it's armour, it's HP and it's damage. There was no innovative use of abilities, no cunning plan to unveil, not even a sense of honour or proper motivation. PvP on the other hand, your opponent has earnt thier power, they're crafty, they're (usually) knowledgable and you can't predict the fight by reading a wiki entry denoting stages and 'suggested reactions' like Onyxia in WoW for example. That's the basis of why I PvP.

This alone however doesn't make an MMO, it makes a multiplayer. A UT match or DoA on the XBox does the same thing and I dont have to pay each month for it. What makes an MMO is cause and effect, of the persistant nature. I put in the time to grind xp, I get stronger. I pump out a few missions, I get money. I make allies and enemies and do things you can't undo by reloading a saved game.

Now, combine my two 'ideals' of online gaming. Without a death penalty there is no cause and effect for PvP. If I kill someone, they just respawn and come back. It becomes a simple case of whoever gets bored first forfiets.  Then you get the epitomy of greifers, the kind that will attack you and annoy you, all the while knowing that even if you do beat them they'll be none the worse. I understand they'll do more damage initially with a nice high death penalty but for the chance to fight back and make them really hurt, to give them pause before they attack the next player, that's priceless.

Death penalties also makes what I consider to be the epitomy of MMO PvP possible. Faction vs Faction conflict with achievable goals, capturable and holdable ground, fluid battlelines. You just can't win a battle when your defeated opponents can just come running back into the fight.

Plus, I like the realism and the RP possibility.

All in all, yes, there are carebears out there that want a no-risk game that's more like a multiplayer game of Oblivion and they'll be quite willing to pay to play it, but I wont be one of them and there are many who think as I do. If game developers truley believe it's pointless to make a game that caters to a large percentage of the MMO playing community then my assertions on the level of human stupidity would actually be a gross understatement.

Play what you want, but dont advocate the denial of a game for me.

i personally hate expirience death penaltys.  I dont mind items, money, running to corpse, those are all expendible but wont put you to far back

the feeling of having hours of expirience taken away has driven me away from many a game

i'm starting to get the impression that some posters aren't reading the other posts.  They seem to be throwing their post in without seeing what we're talking about.

At no point that i'm aware of has the OP or anyone else said "we like HARSH death penalty".  The op asked WHY there are death penalties.  NOT, I like HARSH death penalties.

In fact i think it's safe to say NO ONE likes harsh death penalties.  No one likes losing hours of game time.  And now that we can all/most agree to this lets move on to the original post k?  WHY are there death penalties?

Good point ^^^

Well i guess Death penalties are there to provide a kind of challenge to the game.

The heavier the death penalty the more fun the game is for me, without death penalties, most mmos are just bad shallow turn based puzzle games

i liked the death penalties in tibia, die and lose at the least hours at most several days worth of work, people were genuinely scared to die. i think it had a 10% of total exp penalty, and since it had no max level guys were sometimes dying and losing tens of millions of exp (days or weeks worth of hunting and gear and money), that made the open pvp especially good. Everyone at high level knew about everyone else on the server on first name basis because of what they could do to eachother. Sort of enforced role playing.

Ideally id have a 50% of total exp death penalty in a game personally. In games with very little penalty or none ie WoW, guild wars, eq, i got bored after a couple days.

Originally posted by sacred_band

The heavier the death penalty the more fun the game is for me, without death penalties, most mmos are just bad shallow turn based puzzle games

i liked the death penalties in tibia, die and lose at the least hours at most several days worth of work, people were genuinely scared to die. i think it had a 10% of total exp penalty, and since it had no max level guys were sometimes dying and losing tens of millions of exp (days or weeks worth of hunting and gear and money), that made the open pvp especially good. Everyone at high level knew about everyone else on the server on first name basis because of what they could do to eachother. Sort of enforced role playing.

Ideally id have a 50% of total exp death penalty in a game personally. In games with very little penalty or none ie WoW, guild wars, eq, i got bored after a couple days.

I'd go with that, provided there was some point to PvP, like a game wide Faction vs Faction war. Dying in the defense of some strategic outpost has a certain poetry to it. Dying and lossing 50% of my XP in some bastardized version of CTF, no thanks.

I'd also be inclined to add some sort of non combat way to earn XP, like practice matches with friends or general training. 50% XP loss is a bit steep if the only way you can earn the XP is by risking death. Every nations army offers some degree of non combat training to thier troops before putting them in the fire after all. I dont think a 'go get shot at and if you survive you'll be better for it' doctrine has much appeal.

Personally though, as far as death penalties go I'd steer clear of XP loss. To me, XP is literally experience, even when you loose a battle you get more experienced, in some cases a loss is far more an eye opener. I'd have the corpses fully lootable (though in the act of killing your target you're bound to completely ruin some of his gear, armour with holes in it's pretty useless you know) and after that have a recovery period. Like actual injury recovery, you start off pretty weak and gradually regain your former strength, the length of which would probably be determined by how WTFBBQed you got. Being hit in the face with a V2 rocket for instance would require a significantly longer recovery period them someone who fell down some stairs. That, coupled with the loss of everything you had on you at the time, would probably give a sufficient DP to make my ideal game possible.