I have beta'd a few games in the past and i dont think any have been this incomplete in any stage past beta2.  I began to do a write up on what should / could be changed, but the list grew so long, i eventually gave up.  Some examples:

Buildings do not touch the ground

WASD are the only movement controls possible and mouse use is very limited

User itnerface is not configurable nor are there any descriptions as to the functions (red is health, blue is power / stamina?)

creature were either named "A Crocodile - BUGGED" or they were truely bugged

Combat consists of fist punching a creature that sustains zero damage (and even a rat can eat you alive)

It is impossible to interact with water (this includes NPC's...even the ones that didn't say "bugged")

etc...etc..

Only Horizions rivals this game in the number of late-beta bugs and if you want to know how that game is doing, check out http://www.mmogchart.com and note that player access has dropped to below 10000.  While the concept of this game is appealing, it is appearant that by the time the bugs are worked out, the graphics engine that is employed will be out of date and will not be able to compete with games like Huxley.

there is literature on main site and in forums

-BAG wanted to open the project to the public early..to get more input from community

did you post at all in forums ? did you apply to testergroup ?

the game underwent a huge overhaul <COMPLETE rewrite..new engine>

-so it was actually more -visably- complete previously

there is alot more IN the game right now than standard testers -can- see

-because they do not want to activate various concepts until they work --as intended--

-there are more towns/buildings/mobs/vehicles/weapons/skill systems that you do not see

instead of just throwing everything out there --as  is--

-they concentrate on specific areas <like skill sysytem>

-and will not make it live..until its time to test it..to get it --as intended--

long story short ? they arent rushing things or doing sloppy work to appease the masses

-the dev team is small <you saw indie game co..yea?>

-so things take time

thank you

I understand entering beta early in development to seek player opinions and bug check but comon! This game shouldn't even have a 1.0 tag on it or be called beta. If they said v0.1 alpha test then I might have cut this game some slack. As a phase 4 beta I cannot believe how terrible this game is.

I couldn't bring myself to even get through the character creation on this game. All the races look the same as well as civilizations(common, geo, etc.) with the exception of the outfits which aren't anything remotely special. Let's not even mention the keymap issues. If your willing to sit through a cheesy game experience then this beta is for you. If not, try something else.

i love posts like this

-cuz they aid in the attraction of quality testers

any quality tester that reads this knows -exactly- what i mean

-and we welcome them as brothers

enjoy<ps.wow is probly the game for above posters its a handholder model>

True, we got a ways to go. Posts like this help sometimes, not always. I don't know how long you tested Ruin, but you don't have all your facts straight:

Originally posted by JohnnyCache

I have beta'd a few games in the past and i dont think any have been this incomplete in any stage past beta2.

We call it BETA because that most often implies some sort of public access to a project. We aren't like other companies, and we don't follow their exact methods. I doubt if we called it Alpha, Cappa or Omega Phase it would make any difference.

I began to do a write up on what should / could be changed, but the list grew so long, i eventually gave up.  Some examples:

Welcome to my world, thats called a Bug Report. Every month we revise our lists and attack new frameworks or old bugs. Most people do eventually give up...

Buildings do not touch the ground

Location? A zone designer can edit a file and enhance your gameplay.

WASD are the only movement controls possible and mouse use is very limited

Spacebar is Jump. You can climb trees, objects and structures. WASD also allows you to control ground and air vehicles. X toggles your stance and there's a sprint (bugged atm). Movement control coming. This is a game with full collision and no point-n-click tard-getting system.

User itnerface is not configurable nor are there any descriptions as to the functions (red is health, blue is power / stamina?)

P resizes the chat window and the inventory screen is movable with the mouse. You were right about the 'stat bars' health and stamina...

creature were either named "A Crocodile - BUGGED" or they were truely bugged

It was a Giraffe and they are both named that, and in fact... bugged. Its the walk animation.

Combat consists of fist punching a creature that sustains zero damage (and even a rat can eat you alive)

Fully articulated twitch-based melee combat. L and R Mouse are L and R punch, with a few quick toggles (even while running, jumping, spinning like a monkey) you can also L and R kick, L and R Elbow Strike, Knee Strikes, a few blocks, headbutt and spin kick... Additionally there's an array of melee weapons. There are also guns and explosives, air and ground combat vehicles. Players and mounts can have weapons mounted to them.  You can also dual-weild (going live again soon) 2 melee weapons, or 2 guns, or 1 of each. You have to hit the target to do damage.

It is impossible to interact with water (this includes NPC's...even the ones that didn't say "bugged")

X, which is TOGGLE STANCE allows you to interact with water... not impossible. Hit X if you get stuck in the water.

etc...etc..

He's right, there's more issues,  I could go on.... Everything I listed is either live now, or was live in BETA3 and nurfed for some reason. 

Only Horizions rivals this game in the number of late-beta bugs and if you want to know how that game is doing, check out http://www.mmogchart.com and note that player access has dropped to below 10000. 

Some sites (like this one) have old release dates listed for Ruin. We'll release when the community says its ready to pay money for. If all goes well, thats early 2008.

While the concept of this game is appealing, it is appearant that by the time the bugs are worked out, the graphics engine that is employed will be out of date and will not be able to compete with games like Huxley.

Torque game engine, though cheap and wonky supports full shaders and other eye-candy now. It also ports to Mac and Linux. Torque shader engine even ports to Xbox 360. The technology is viable and constantly being updated/supported by one of the largest indy-game communities on the planet.

As for games like Huxley... We plead no contest.  Until we have 50-100 employees working full time and a multi-million dollar budget, we'll leave it to others to make those comparisons.

Hope that clarifies the current state of the game for anyone interested, but if not I have to quote the lead dev:

"cry more, nub."

Jondo

Originally posted by Jondozer
Mike,

Sorry about the server trouble. We have actually be switching over to a new Co-Lo this week. So far its faster, but we're still working on some of the Database ties. (working for existing characters, but no new characters until the database work is done.) The change over should be complete sometime during the coming weekend.

I guess if you want to try an existing character it would be ok... don't tell anybody my password though, I don't want this toon ending up on Ebay!

Character Name: Tester7
password: 1234

Jondozer

Jondozer: Are you really a member/employee of this 'company'?

You need a serious lesson in customer relations, quotes from the 'Lead Dev' of 'cry more nub' is enough for me to know to stay well away from your 'company'.

Your unable to handle critism which if your heading into the mmo market you need to get used to it because guess what, your gonna get it in heaps.

While im a reasonable person i can understand the complexities and issues surrounding mmo development and the difficulties in competing in such a huge market, but your attitude is appauling, unprofessional and down right personal.

Your suppose to be running a business and hoping to attract the millions of potential customers that have been introduced into the mmo market over the last few years but your responces here are unattractive and hostile.

Good luck with your game, i know i wont be trying it out, shame really it could be the game im looking for but after reading your post i wont even be having a look at your screenshots.

Originally posted by yorkforce

You need a serious lesson in customer relations, quotes from the 'Lead Dev' of 'cry more nub' is enough for me to know to stay well away from your 'company'.

He was being sarcastic, a form of ironic humor.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm

Originally posted by Flummoxed

 

Originally posted by yorkforce

You need a serious lesson in customer relations, quotes from the 'Lead Dev' of 'cry more nub' is enough for me to know to stay well away from your 'company'.

He was being sarcastic, a form of ironic humor.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm

Then I guess the "devs" at Brokeassgames only know how to talk in sarcasm mode, right? Because that has been the type of response you get from any of them, along with their circle of fanbois.

Originally posted by Jondozer

True, we got a ways to go. Posts like this help sometimes, not always. I don't know how long you tested Ruin, but you don't have all your facts straight:

Originally posted by JohnnyCache

I have beta'd a few games in the past and i dont think any have been this incomplete in any stage past beta2.

We call it BETA because that most often implies some sort of public access to a project. We aren't like other companies, and we don't follow their exact methods. I doubt if we called it Alpha, Cappa or Omega Phase it would make any difference.

I began to do a write up on what should / could be changed, but the list grew so long, i eventually gave up.  Some examples:

Welcome to my world, thats called a Bug Report. Every month we revise our lists and attack new frameworks or old bugs. Most people do eventually give up...

Buildings do not touch the ground

Location? A zone designer can edit a file and enhance your gameplay.

WASD are the only movement controls possible and mouse use is very limited

Spacebar is Jump. You can climb trees, objects and structures. WASD also allows you to control ground and air vehicles. X toggles your stance and there's a sprint (bugged atm). Movement control coming. This is a game with full collision and no point-n-click tard-getting system.

User itnerface is not configurable nor are there any descriptions as to the functions (red is health, blue is power / stamina?)

P resizes the chat window and the inventory screen is movable with the mouse. You were right about the 'stat bars' health and stamina...

creature were either named "A Crocodile - BUGGED" or they were truely bugged

It was a Giraffe and they are both named that, and in fact... bugged. Its the walk animation.

Combat consists of fist punching a creature that sustains zero damage (and even a rat can eat you alive)

Fully articulated twitch-based melee combat. L and R Mouse are L and R punch, with a few quick toggles (even while running, jumping, spinning like a monkey) you can also L and R kick, L and R Elbow Strike, Knee Strikes, a few blocks, headbutt and spin kick... Additionally there's an array of melee weapons. There are also guns and explosives, air and ground combat vehicles. Players and mounts can have weapons mounted to them.  You can also dual-weild (going live again soon) 2 melee weapons, or 2 guns, or 1 of each. You have to hit the target to do damage.

It is impossible to interact with water (this includes NPC's...even the ones that didn't say "bugged")

X, which is TOGGLE STANCE allows you to interact with water... not impossible. Hit X if you get stuck in the water.

etc...etc..

He's right, there's more issues,  I could go on.... Everything I listed is either live now, or was live in BETA3 and nurfed for some reason. 

Only Horizions rivals this game in the number of late-beta bugs and if you want to know how that game is doing, check out http://www.mmogchart.com and note that player access has dropped to below 10000. 

Some sites (like this one) have old release dates listed for Ruin. We'll release when the community says its ready to pay money for. If all goes well, thats early 2008.

While the concept of this game is appealing, it is appearant that by the time the bugs are worked out, the graphics engine that is employed will be out of date and will not be able to compete with games like Huxley.

Torque game engine, though cheap and wonky supports full shaders and other eye-candy now. It also ports to Mac and Linux. Torque shader engine even ports to Xbox 360. The technology is viable and constantly being updated/supported by one of the largest indy-game communities on the planet.

As for games like Huxley... We plead no contest.  Until we have 50-100 employees working full time and a multi-million dollar budget, we'll leave it to others to make those comparisons.

Hope that clarifies the current state of the game for anyone interested, but if not I have to quote the lead dev:

"cry more, nub."

Jondo

Allow me to respond:

I will give you the fact that it was months ago when i attempted to play this game and upon download, there was NO written nor in game instructions on control setup, so all of your references to "correct" control and interface settings did not help at the time...  I suggest that you make this information available to players upon download...unless it was your intent to use it as "flame ammo"..

As for writing bug reports, yes...that is my world too, so you get no sympathy from me.  I enjoy doing it so much that i do it for work (debug GPS and PCL apps) as well as for fun (hence...my attempt to debug your application).  By your response, you either do not enjoy your job or you are not good at it.

As for your stage of Beta (or whatever your company wishes to call it), i suggest you research the ISO IEC 90003 standards on Software...particularly the "Lyfe Cycle Model".   Maybe by adhering to some standards, your company will not fail before it begins.

I wanted to report that buildings do not touch the ground, towit you responded "Location?".  If there were a reference point in game (or documents on how to obtain a /LOC x,y,z cooridnate) i would have given more detail, but to be honest...this appeared to be a building floating in the desert.

WASD and SPACE are the only controls.  You did state that you could climb trees, but again, did not detail on HOW to do this, and since there is no end-user documentation created, there was no way for me to know nor test this.

You also state that "P" resizes the chat window.  So, by this i can guess that if i press the "P" button on my keyboard, the software will read my mind and place screen elements where i wish them to be? 

My report that a crocodile (with the character heading "A Crocodile - BUGGED) was actually a giraffe?  And by "both named that", does that mean there are two giraffe/crocodile hybrid animals out there somewhere?  And when did giraffes get scales?

Your repsonse to my comment on controls avoids the substance of the statement:  i punch something, no damage is applied...and subsquently, a moth can kill my character.  What good is a weapon if it does nothing ?

As for games like YOURS...maybe you should either:

1.  Wait for a better platform before releasing your game as "BETA" and/or

2.  Provide "testers" with the tools to test and report back.. and/or

3.  Accept ALL information as VALID...even smartasses have something to say.

WIth all that said, i will address your last comment:  "cry more, nub".  I will not be the one investing time and money into this project, so it will not be me that loses his investment.  I will, however, make a fair amount of income working my job and go home each day and decide which games to beta test with my two sons.  I assure you that any company who's representative accepts input with a response of htis nature is destined for failure.  I will not cry...i will laugh when this game goes straight from beta to the dollar store....

good luck with your "game", Jondo...queen of the netherworld...or whatever you are calling yourself...

Johnny

Look the torque game engine and graphics aren't even a huge issue, hell AC is still making money, so's Linage and they have been around for ages. The fact of the matter is, with MMORPG  games you need:

Strong community.

Strong accessable gameplay, that's fun.

Explanatory directions, and even a small tutorial.

Good character development.

And *takes a deep breath* A DAMN GOOD QA TEAM TO TELL YOU WHEN YOU'RE SCREWING UP!

This was a big problem for Vanguard. They had one QA guy at release, one! For that big of a game. Now SOE is trying to pick up what's left of Vanguard's bowls. Now follow along Jondoe. Early beta is no excuse not to have a good support team. I didn't say large, I said good.

Since your an inde company I would suggest picking up a few passionate individuals to help you by just playing the game and giving you good feedback on it. Individuals that you can call up, or you know maybe see in person. Like five or so QA employees. A QA's job is to assess games to ensure the gane's quality and make suggestions on what could be improved. There are even some damn good QA people that will help fix small issues.

Beta players do not always want to give feedback on a game, and honestly no public software should be THIS buggy without absolute discretion. The best companies are humble, despite what some may think. The most important things to a game company are it's players. So ask yourself. What types of games are they playing? What can we offer that they will react to? What are they saying about our systems? This isn't really done, would it be better if we stashed it for now because it could impede their good judgment towards our game?

I've been following this game since five of you put it up on Garage Games over three years ago. As I see it, it seems you will suffer the same fate as many inde companies, failure. Why? A super hard head, and terrible attitude towards your peers. PR and impressions are everything. Everyone will take everything out of context, unless you have something good to say keep your mouth shut, one class action suit due to verbal harassment and your game is sunk.

Originally posted by mehoron

Everyone will take everything out of context, unless you have something good to say keep your mouth shut, one class action suit due to verbal harassment and your game is sunk.

I don't follow this game, but if "cry more nub" is the extent of their "verbal harrassment" then I think the comment was right on par. People are blowing things way out of proportion and are not giving this game and these guys a fair chance. Hell, even WoW's GMs poke fun at their customers, sometimes about very sensitive topics (a few jokes made regarding Paladin bubble-hearth tactics come to mind) and they're still top of the market. I'm not here to defend these guys, just pointing out that it really isn't THAT big of a deal.

hrm..right on par, eh?

I come to these sites because i care too... I come to help serious developers make good games.  When i "beta" test a game, i expect some, if not all of the following:

- A guide to the keyboard and how to change key mappings
- A tool for which to give developers, designers and artists feedback on my testing experience.
- An understanding of the limitations of the game in its current state
- A list of known issues (so that they are not over-reported)

This game had none of these.  Your reference to WoW is like comparing a retarded kid to a candied yam.  World of Warcraft should not be the standard to which other games are held and I question diversity of any gamer that compares anything to WoW.

I completely support the development of garage-shop applicaitons, but most garage shop apps are developed for a purpose:  To license a particular part of the game engine, sell it and fund a better project.  This is quite evident in game history where a garage shop application will introduce an exciting feature, but never make release because Sony or Mythic or some deep-pockets company wants feature in thier game and are williing to pony up for the technology.  A prime example of this would be EA Games "BattleField 2" where your character's mouth moves while you are talking on voice chat.  EA games did not come up with this idea...it was bought.  This is being further perfected by the Dark Voices project.  Now that there is a demand for technology (brought on by EA game's purchase and implementation), the dark voices project doesn't even need a "beta game" to demo thier technology.  On the flip side, there is always the evil side of engine development.  If you look at what happened to Dark and Light, you will see how features can be stolen from developers.

My suggestion to the developers of this game:  Create ONE really cool thing in your game..something that no one else has.  Then, patent and/or copywrite (so no one can steal it) and only then, demo it to larger developers.  You will not make the millions of dollars that the end developer will make, but the money that you do make can be re-invested in a better engine and deeper thought.  A person could even start a company on designing and developing features for MMO's and selling the intellectual rights to the features.

While "cry more nub" isn't harrassment, it doesn't seem to be an attitude that is condusive to success.  I am going to continue to watch this game and will un-install / re-install it a few more times to see if it is growing.  I will also look forward to the "gem in the rough" that will allow your company to take the next step.

Good Luck...

Johnnee

aww i missd alll the fun..been a while since a post on this one

for controls f1 has a nifty help stuff

ctrl+0 to alter settings in game

-rebinding also

forums for feedback + lists of known issues

a new build will be coming active in a couple weeks

the game is actually simpler to the B3 untested eye in b4

-it has a upgraded torque engine

-and they deactivated alot of the stuff

**earlier phase testers have seen more than is present now**

they are also recoding EVERYTHING from the ground up

-to kick out alot of fluff that was in the previous engine versian

**simple traslation they are recreating the game**

**but now have the benift of all that previous knowlegde**

they will be steadily introducing new content

-as deemed appropriate and noob friendy

*ie working well enuff to break*

we will post again when the time is right

-TA for now :)

Originally posted by JohnnyCache

hrm..right on par, eh?

I come to these sites because i care too... I come to help serious developers make good games.  When i "beta" test a game, i expect some, if not all of the following:

- A guide to the keyboard and how to change key mappings
- A tool for which to give developers, designers and artists feedback on my testing experience.
- An understanding of the limitations of the game in its current state
- A list of known issues (so that they are not over-reported)

This game had none of these.  Your reference to WoW is like comparing a retarded kid to a candied yam.  World of Warcraft should not be the standard to which other games are held and I question diversity of any gamer that compares anything to WoW.

I completely support the development of garage-shop applicaitons, but most garage shop apps are developed for a purpose:  To license a particular part of the game engine, sell it and fund a better project.  This is quite evident in game history where a garage shop application will introduce an exciting feature, but never make release because Sony or Mythic or some deep-pockets company wants feature in thier game and are williing to pony up for the technology.  A prime example of this would be EA Games "BattleField 2" where your character's mouth moves while you are talking on voice chat.  EA games did not come up with this idea...it was bought.  This is being further perfected by the Dark Voices project.  Now that there is a demand for technology (brought on by EA game's purchase and implementation), the dark voices project doesn't even need a "beta game" to demo thier technology.  On the flip side, there is always the evil side of engine development.  If you look at what happened to Dark and Light, you will see how features can be stolen from developers.

My suggestion to the developers of this game:  Create ONE really cool thing in your game..something that no one else has.  Then, patent and/or copywrite (so no one can steal it) and only then, demo it to larger developers.  You will not make the millions of dollars that the end developer will make, but the money that you do make can be re-invested in a better engine and deeper thought.  A person could even start a company on designing and developing features for MMO's and selling the intellectual rights to the features.

While "cry more nub" isn't harrassment, it doesn't seem to be an attitude that is condusive to success.  I am going to continue to watch this game and will un-install / re-install it a few more times to see if it is growing.  I will also look forward to the "gem in the rough" that will allow your company to take the next step.

Good Luck...

Johnnee

 

  as for your comments reguarding WoW and a "retarted kid" my cousin happens to be mentaly incapacitated, so may you burn in hell for a calous comment about people that have no control over their mental state. 

Game Devs should be looking at WoWs game model and trying to emulate what it has, not what the game has and not emulate the game but emulate the way the game has been presented and supported.  For a game that is 3 years old and still going strong i would say you may want to take some of the ideas from it and adapt them to your own game but NOT copy.  Numbers do not lie about what people like so you can not argue against the facts of huge success.

Nothing personal bud just a bit of difference of opinion :) 

hehe..if youd really like to lay the smackdown on him

-you should drag him into game

where we have punch/ kick/ elbow/ knee strikes/ headbutt/ spin kicks

-all while jumping as well :)

-you CAN block as well..if thats your thing

thse strikes can also be used WHILE wielding melee or RANGED wpns

-not punch..but all the others..

-spinkick to knock a meleer back..then waste him with your shotgun..priceless

but this is just the basic setup..they are working on skill systems and special attacks

-that most of you havent seen yet :)

did som1 say magic ? yes we have magic as well

-more to come later..magic and skills arent active in this build

-but i have seen magic from beta3..and its wicked..almost  too..wicked

*haha shameless inuendo..if you know where its from*

sorry, but no...

we have spurred our own project (which we will not reveal until we have somehting to show off), so i will not be returning to your game nor this thread in the near future. 

Thanks for your opinion and good luck with your project !