Originally posted by Johnhost
I played EQ1 since 2000 and have seen the evolution.  The biggest problems are thus...

• Economy is extremely out of whack - top level raid gear from older expansions are sold for a few plat on a farmer's paradise bazaar system.  If your not using gear far above spec you cannot tank mobs, period!
• Too many expansions too fast, ruined the economy, with each expansion another mechanic is broken
• Top heavy raid game with very little ability for new players to group, especially 10-50 level's
• The wonder and awe of a MMORPG is gone
• Old city zones are empty and the simplicity formula that hooked most of us have been gone for years
• Storyline has gone loony

This is only to name a few.  WoW, EQ2, LOTRO, etc all are competition.  EQ1 needs to CLOSE DOWN, leave a classic server (original, kunark and velious) as a memorial to the game, and make a new EQ.

Short of a new game from scratch, there is nothing that can help EQ1 be great again.

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Originally posted by Chieftan
I don't agree on PoP though. At that point in the game there was just too much real estate and travel times were ridiculous. They had to do something to get people around faster and have one place to act as a hub. I didn't like the implementation(books????) but they had the right idea.

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I joined my current guild somewhen during Velious expansion. At that time the guild was doing Temple of Veshan and the Planes (Fear, Hate, Sky). We would meet at the bank in Thurgaden and either get druid ports to somewhere and run or wizard ports.

Every player was required to have their own invis, EB, Speed and gate item/ability - Thurg gate potion, OT Hammer, something.

The world was not to big, it was just right. Travel was dangerous enough over those stretches to make even getting somewhere safely, entertaining.

With the release of SoL, the only real change in our gatherings, we now met in the nexus.

Planes of Power, with the portal books. Was the first real blow to dimensions of the world. With the advent of the portal books, newbs could now leave their starting areas, safely and travel to easier starting areas.

This also introduced the raid flag per player reguirement.

It was, in my opinion, these two modifications to the game, that started the slide into mediocrity, for Everquest.

Originally posted by Mwalkin

You cannot reasonably compare sports and traditional board games to Everquest. No one plays little league Everquest, no one watches Everquest on T.V., and I'm pretty sure the number of chess clubs far outnumber the number of EQ clubs.  Those things are built into our culture, that is why they stay around.

Look at Mario, Pac-Man, Tetris, Frogger, and loads of other classics.  They got old, newer and better things came out, and they eventually faded out.  Video games, music, fashion, all of these things are ephemeral, they don't last, and they are not meant to.

You are right, MMORPGs should evolve, but not a single game, but MMORPGs as an entire genre.  Everquest is like the Mickey Mantle of Baseball.  He was great, but he got old, and couldn't keep up.  Baseball is still alive, but the players will come and go.

All the classics games you bring are single players or very limited hot-seat lan style, they can't be compared to a SOCIAL setting such as EQ.  I am sure that if EQ would have been done right, it would have more players now then ever, despite low graphics...after all, WoW comes with lowly graphics, didn't it?   WoW IS EQ!  The players just move, they transfer...and WoW did the same raiding mistake, so the players will quit again, because of raiding.

You just have to get the players motivated, thrilled, wanting to play more.  Raiding removes that.  Where once the players where thrilled and wanting more, you put a new ugly thing in their face.  They went from loooving the game, to liking the game, to accepting the game, to enduring the game, to suffering in the game to eventually quit.  This is what raiding does.

Like Baseball, a fan would remains a fan if the game is still around and progressing.  Raiding removes that.  Been a baseball fan have little requirements, you need a TV and to actually like that (Been a Baseball fan alone at home is about as social as been playing EQ, but you are receiving only, not giving anything out unless other fans are around, so EQ is better on this aspect).  Been an EQ fan requires a computer (old one), and to actually enjoy that...raiding removes the enjoyment part in a dot-way.

PS: All the EQ fans are still doing exactly what they where, just in another game, mostly because the original fails them.  I tried and love CoV because EQ fails me (Most are supposedly in WoW now), not because I was that curious about trying another MMO, heck, I don't have time to play 2 MMOs at once, so the first one must fails me if I am to try another...and EQ just did that, it fails me, as a grouper.

Originally posted by Anofalye

Originally posted by Mwalkin

You cannot reasonably compare sports and traditional board games to Everquest. No one plays little league Everquest, no one watches Everquest on T.V., and I'm pretty sure the number of chess clubs far outnumber the number of EQ clubs.  Those things are built into our culture, that is why they stay around.

Look at Mario, Pac-Man, Tetris, Frogger, and loads of other classics.  They got old, newer and better things came out, and they eventually faded out.  Video games, music, fashion, all of these things are ephemeral, they don't last, and they are not meant to.

You are right, MMORPGs should evolve, but not a single game, but MMORPGs as an entire genre.  Everquest is like the Mickey Mantle of Baseball.  He was great, but he got old, and couldn't keep up.  Baseball is still alive, but the players will come and go.

All the classics games you bring are single players or very limited hot-seat lan style, they can't be compared to a SOCIAL setting such as EQ.  I am sure that if EQ would have been done right, it would have more players now then ever, despite low graphics...after all, WoW comes with lowly graphics, didn't it?   WoW IS EQ!  The players just move, they transfer...and WoW did the same raiding mistake, so the players will quit again, because of raiding.

 

You just have to get the players motivated, thrilled, wanting to play more.  Raiding removes that.  Where once the players where thrilled and wanting more, you put a new ugly thing in their face.  They went from loooving the game, to liking the game, to accepting the game, to enduring the game, to suffering in the game to eventually quit.  This is what raiding does.

 

Like Baseball, a fan would remains a fan if the game is still around and progressing.  Raiding removes that.  Been a baseball fan have little requirements, you need a TV and to actually like that (Been a Baseball fan alone at home is about as social as been playing EQ, but you are receiving only, not giving anything out unless other fans are around, so EQ is better on this aspect).  Been an EQ fan requires a computer (old one), and to actually enjoy that...raiding removes the enjoyment part in a dot-way.

 

PS: All the EQ fans are still doing exactly what they where, just in another game, mostly because the original fails them.  I tried and love CoV because EQ fails me (Most are supposedly in WoW now), not because I was that curious about trying another MMO, heck, I don't have time to play 2 MMOs at once, so the first one must fails me if I am to try another...and EQ just did that, it fails me, as a grouper.

"All the EQ fans are still doing exactly what they were, just in another game"

Exactly, they are doing the same things, in a newer game.  I won't say that the newer games are better, because honestly I think EQ was the best MMORPG I have ever played.  I will say this, first off, MMOs are gaining popularity, and more and more people are joining.  It is no longer the community full of hardcore gamers that is once was.  The times have changed and they have to cater to a new gamer that wants everything dumbed down and shiny.  When the masses start flocking towards that new shiny MMO and few stay to play the real game, eventually everyone will give up, and hop on the bandwagon.  We all saw this happen with WoW.  Second, there is only so much you can do before people are going to get bored with a game.  You can only add so many more races, quests, items and features.  EVERYTHING goes away in time.  Baseball will, chess will, hockey will, everquest will. 

Originally posted by Odenathus

 

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Originally posted by Chieftan
I don't agree on PoP though. At that point in the game there was just too much real estate and travel times were ridiculous. They had to do something to get people around faster and have one place to act as a hub. I didn't like the implementation(books????) but they had the right idea.

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1. The Ruins of Kunark (March 2000)
2. The Scars of Velious (December 2000)
3. The Shadows of Luclin (December 2001)
4. The Planes of Power (October 2002)
5. The Legacy of Ykesha (February 2003)
6. Lost Dungeons of Norrath (September 2003)
7. Gates of Discord (February 2004)
8. Omens of War (September 2004)
9. Dragons of Norrath (February 2005)
10. Depths of Darkhollow (September 2005)
11. Prophecy of Ro (February 2006)
12. The Serpent's Spine (September 2006)
13. The Buried Sea (February 2007)
14. Secrets of Faydwer(Announced)

I joined my current guild somewhen during Velious expansion. At that time the guild was doing Temple of Veshan and the Planes (Fear, Hate, Sky). We would meet at the bank in Thurgaden and either get druid ports to somewhere and run or wizard ports.

Every player was required to have their own invis, EB, Speed and gate item/ability - Thurg gate potion, OT Hammer, something.

The world was not to big, it was just right. Travel was dangerous enough over those stretches to make even getting somewhere safely, entertaining.

With the release of SoL, the only real change in our gatherings, we now met in the nexus.

Planes of Power, with the portal books. Was the first real blow to dimensions of the world. With the advent of the portal books, newbs could now leave their starting areas, safely and travel to easier starting areas.

This also introduced the raid flag per player reguirement.

It was, in my opinion, these two modifications to the game, that started the slide into mediocrity, for Everquest.

Originally posted by Chieftan

Originally posted by pilto
raiding killed everquest.  POP and Furor killed everquest.

I agree that the devs put too much into raiding and that ultimately drove off most of their playerbase.

I don't agree on PoP though.  At that point in the game there was just too much real estate and travel times were ridiculous.  They had to do something to get people around faster and have one place to act as a hub.  I didn't like the implementation(books????) but they had the right idea.

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Originally posted by Kordesh
Maybe you had fun running around with your speed enhancers and potions and shit, but not everyone had those.

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In fact, I started playing with the release of Kunark. I wasn't in a guild until sometime after the release of Velious.

I had to do those same CR's you speak of. I had to level, just like everyone else. I had to find my own clickies. POTIONS?! It was a friggin quest! Anyone could do it! The thurgadin gate potion was a subset of the shawl quest.

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Some of us had to hoof it across 20+ zones to get where we needed to be, and if we died half way, tack on another 10.

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If you had to travel more than 10 zones to find an adventure, I don't think it was the size of the world. Thats appx 124 zones. Of which appx 3 each would have been town zones (Qeynos, Neriak, Freeport, High Hold Keep, Erudine, Felwithe, Kelethin, Ak'Anon, Grobb, Ogguk, Kaladim, Rivervale, Fironia Vie, Cabilis, Thurgadin, Skyshrine, Kael). During this point in history, Wizards and Druids were available for ports. That leaves appx 73 zones without bind points - which would have been fairly evenly spread out across the entire game, broken up by town zones.

Qeynos to Freeport: 7 zones apart
Faydwer: 12 zones (of which 4 are towns)
Kunark: 28 zones (of which 5 are towns)
Velious: 19 zones (of which 4 could be towns)
Thurgadin bank to NToV: 9 zones (if you have to run it)
Anywhere in game to Plane of Hate/Sky: 1 (but we always ported from South Ro - add 5 to Thurg)
Thurgadin bank to Plane of Fear: 8 (if you have to run it)

Also, many zones were to high level or low level (depending on the player) to count.

(all zone counts are appx because I can't find my original boxes and I'm not really interested in searching the web for an exact count - when an appx will do)

I accept your opinion, you feel the world was to large. IMO, the world was an excellent size, just my play style or something.

EQ never really took off for several reason...

-Flawed Gameplay

-Crappy Graphics

-Large time investment

-Exploits

-Raiding direction

-And un inspired game art....

I have to comment on this and take it how you want.

Ive played EQ for 8 years, been in a raiding guild for 6.

BUT the c omment that if your not in a raiding guild you cant do anything isnt true at all.  With each new expansion SOE is fixing this.  Even with the last one TBS, the gear you get from doing missions and quest is equivlent to the OOW//DOD Expansions.  A person geared from the TBS group missions can do all the stuff anyone can who is geared from DOD/DON/POR/TSS. 

2 expansions ago I would of agreed with the person who said non raiding characters cant do anything with new content, but SOE has been fixing this problem with each new expansion.  IN the upcoming expansion There will be gear that is even better for people who ONLY Group and not raid.  Obviously raiding gear is the focus and its better, but to say you cant be geared good if you dont raid is just wrong.

I have a friend who has a warrior in the top 50 of drinal and he has never been in a raiding guild.   Theres open Raids for higher end zones now days and loot is random based in these raids.  You can do stuff without joininig a raiding guild and its fun stuff.  I love this game wont ever leave :)

Originally posted by Markn12

I have to comment on this and take it how you want.

 

Ive played EQ for 8 years, been in a raiding guild for 6.

BUT the c omment that if your not in a raiding guild you cant do anything isnt true at all.  With each new expansion SOE is fixing this.  Even with the last one TBS, the gear you get from doing missions and quest is equivlent to the OOW//DOD Expansions.  A person geared from the TBS group missions can do all the stuff anyone can who is geared from DOD/DON/POR/TSS. 

2 expansions ago I would of agreed with the person who said non raiding characters cant do anything with new content, but SOE has been fixing this problem with each new expansion.  IN the upcoming expansion There will be gear that is even better for people who ONLY Group and not raid.  Obviously raiding gear is the focus and its better, but to say you cant be geared good if you dont raid is just wrong.

I have a friend who has a warrior in the top 50 of drinal and he has never been in a raiding guild.   Theres open Raids for higher end zones now days and loot is random based in these raids.  You can do stuff without joininig a raiding guild and its fun stuff.  I love this game wont ever leave :)

Too little too late.

As long as a raider is better at grouping then a grouper (with similar time investment), the game is wrong.

Originally posted by Markn12
When you say similar time investment are you considering the 5 nights a week the 5 hrs a day (25 hrs a week) that raider plays to get his gear ?  I dont see a person who just groups playing that much.

A lot of people who don't raid really do play 20-40 hours a week. I was guilded with a lot of people like that the last time around. But they had all the top end group stuff for TSS and were collecting powersources for it the last time I played. They certainly weren't hurting for gear!

In my last round of playing EQ1, my observation was that a lot of the people I knew in raiding guilds only grouped if they needed to get to a new level cap or collect new AAs. Otherwise, they ONLY raided, for the most part. That was a big enough of a commitment. Has anyone else observed this, or do I just hang around with freaks?

Anofalye hates raiding. If someone who raids is even 0.01% better or more effective in a group than someone who doesn't raid, Anofalye will not be happy. The fact that there's been a lot of attention paid to the single group and three-groups-or-less crowd in recent expansions will not dull or diminish Anofalye's Mighty Hatred of Raiding (Rk. IV). In a game where effectiveness is a function of HP/AC/MANA/(stats generally) + Level/AAs (aside from the skill of a player at his or her class), creating a scenario where raiders get gear that makes them better at raiding but not better at grouping seems... ah... unlikely at best.

(EDIT: Redundant redundancies removed and deleted.)

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Originally posted by neschria
Anofalye hates raiding. If someone who raids is even 0.01% better or more effective in a group than someone who doesn't raid, Anofalye will not be happy.

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Originally posted by neschria
In a game where effectiveness is a function of HP/AC/MANA/(stats generally) + Level/AAs (aside from the skill of a player at his or her class), creating a scenario where raiders get gear that makes them better at raiding but not better at grouping seems... ah... unlikely at best.

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So, I was wondering;

Let us say you have a town zone which has two joining zones - Grouper Valley and Raider Caves. These two zones are both content aimed directly at certain class of player (groups and raids).

Grouper Valley leads to Planes of Groupness.
Raider Caves leads to Halls of Raiders.

Now let us say that;
Grouper Valley content is basically level 50
Planes of Groupness is basically level 55

Also lets assume that our raider raids often enough to get the lion share of the drops, gears and spells.

Then suddenly there is a server crash - but only certain zones are down and will be down for the rest of the day, just to force our raider out of his zones and into town.

Wouldn't you think that our Raider would be over in Planes of Groupness, playing and NOT in Grouper Valley?

What I'm thinking here, is could it be that the raiding has actually given the raider an advantage over the grouper, much like what Anofalye says - however, the advantage would put the raider in HIGHER group content - and thus NOT competing with the grouper for content?!

Which could be resolved, simply by changing the names of the player levels. If Anofalyes player was only 50 and restricted to Grouper Valley and the level 50 Raider comes over and starts hunting in Planes of Groupness, Anofalye (and myself) are going to feel slighted.

But if the raider was level 55, I suspect, neither of us (Anofalye and myself) would notice or care? Thus a simple solution, might be - just change the level names (system) to reflect accomplishments and areas of access as opposed to raw exp earned?

Now, this is just something I've been thinking about, I don't know if it has any bearing on reality... it was just a vague formless thought that crossed my PC :)

neschria's a bunny, again -lol-

I didn't mean any disrespect to Anofalye. There's something to be said for having strong convictions. :) 

Originally posted by Odenathus

neschria's a bunny, again -lol-

I thought I'd switch back to my old avatar again in honor of the M:TG card tunabun designed and posted for me in The Pub:

There's gonna be some bunny squishin' tonight, I dare say. LOL.

Originally posted by Odenathus

 

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Originally posted by Kordesh
Maybe you had fun running around with your speed enhancers and potions and shit, but not everyone had those.

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You know, I didn't start at level 65 with potions and clickies. I didn't buy my character on eBay. I'm not a social giant.

In fact, I started playing with the release of Kunark. I wasn't in a guild until sometime after the release of Velious.

I had to do those same CR's you speak of. I had to level, just like everyone else. I had to find my own clickies. POTIONS?! It was a friggin quest! Anyone could do it! The thurgadin gate potion was a subset of the shawl quest.

 

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Some of us had to hoof it across 20+ zones to get where we needed to be, and if we died half way, tack on another 10.

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At a guess, EQ released with 78 zones. Kunark added 27 and Velious added another 19.

If you had to travel more than 10 zones to find an adventure, I don't think it was the size of the world. Thats appx 124 zones. Of which appx 3 each would have been town zones (Qeynos, Neriak, Freeport, High Hold Keep, Erudine, Felwithe, Kelethin, Ak'Anon, Grobb, Ogguk, Kaladim, Rivervale, Fironia Vie, Cabilis, Thurgadin, Skyshrine, Kael). During this point in history, Wizards and Druids were available for ports. That leaves appx 73 zones without bind points - which would have been fairly evenly spread out across the entire game, broken up by town zones.

Qeynos to Freeport: 7 zones apart
Faydwer: 12 zones (of which 4 are towns)
Kunark: 28 zones (of which 5 are towns)
Velious: 19 zones (of which 4 could be towns)
Thurgadin bank to NToV: 9 zones (if you have to run it)
Anywhere in game to Plane of Hate/Sky: 1 (but we always ported from South Ro - add 5 to Thurg)
Thurgadin bank to Plane of Fear: 8 (if you have to run it)

Also, many zones were to high level or low level (depending on the player) to count.

(all zone counts are appx because I can't find my original boxes and I'm not really interested in searching the web for an exact count - when an appx will do)

I accept your opinion, you feel the world was to large. IMO, the world was an excellent size, just my play style or something.