I am looking for people who know a little more than myself to discuss several points below:-

Are communities now redundant with the introduction of Guilds ?

Are communities now redundant due to the scale and number of players within MMORPG Instances Servers ?

Have features been introduced to MMORPG's for the masses that inhibit 3rd Generation MMORPG's ever developing to the next level?

My current view is that certain features add no real value to the gaming experience:-

• Large scale auction houses
• Cash Economies instead of Item based economies.
• Over elaborate Graphics add nothing to real gameplay
• Raid and End Game /(Lazy development rather than design a decent progression system)

But maybe I'm wrong but from what I am seeing none of the new crop of games add anything exciting...

You're almost exactly quoting what World of Warcraft is.

Redundant communities? They don't exist in good games. If you make the content dynamic enough and offer people more freedom in playing the game they want, then you make the community more diverse.

A combat-centric game with only a few ways of customizing the already too few ways of differentiating people (classes) will give you only a few different types of people, making the world (no matter how gigantic it is) feel very small.

More expansive and diverse games, such as EVE, Ryzom, and SWG (before it went awry) have more diverse communities as a result... although the communities are quite small.

You're right, though. Since Blizzard's bomb was such a big hit (it brought all the starcraft and warcraft players into MMORPGs), this next generation may be saturated in its wake of stench. ... Either that or deeply inspire some much needed innovation, which I somehow doubt from big name companies such as SOE, EA, THQ, and Atari (yes, I do bash the company I work for, and I enjoy it).

Now for the nitty-gritty: Instances: They're not bad and they're not what causes problems with communities. It's how they're used that makes them harmful. I can see large dungeons and battle fields being separated from the masses as a necessity, but if they're the only thing you can do in the end, then the community will suffer.

Guilds: These are like social groups; what better way to get to know lots of people and hang out with them? The problem? They become elitist and concentrate entirely on the end-game content. In WoW, there is no point in recruiting people except to have more players ready for the big 40-man raid of dungeon #22B (who cares what it is? you only hope that some good loot drops and the leader doesn't give it to someone else). The purpose of a guild is to bring people together to share common interests, which is utterly perverted by that atrocity of software of Wars and Crafts. Other games have solved this problem by giving an incentive to invite people into the guild: minor taxes on all members for accumulating a large guild bank, upgrades that benefit everyone in the guild that require a certain amount of members, etc. Just perks for bringing people aboard to be friends.

Graphics: Well, WoW actually got away with literally 'smoke n mirrors'. They used low-poly models, med-res textures, no normal / parallax / shadow / or relief mapping, low specular, and no bloom with minimal Direct 3D lighting... a guy with a 5-year-old laptop can play it. Obviously graphics are just gravy.

End game is what kills the big game of the market. Surprisingly, every other game has better end-game content than the Blizzkid, yet they all fail miserably at delivering in the general content up to the point, which 'WoWz' delivers. What people want is instant gratification, and that is what Warcraft offers; but like playing snakes and ladders, it's never truly fulfilling and it leaves much to be desired when you reach the top.

So, yes, there are plenty of things that should be rooted out from game plans, yet the big-shot guys and those with diluted minds will never deliver the games people truly desire (Throne of Chaos, anyone?) until someone who has their head straight does first.

(Now the cheesy part): Will YOU be that someone? o_O

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

You're almost exactly quoting what World of Warcraft is.

Redundant communities? They don't exist in good games. If you make the content dynamic enough and offer people more freedom in playing the game they want, then you make the community more diverse.

A combat-centric game with only a few ways of customizing the already too few ways of differentiating people (classes) will give you only a few different types of people, making the world (no matter how gigantic it is) feel very small.

More expansive and diverse games, such as EVE, Ryzom, and SWG (before it went awry) have more diverse communities as a result... although the communities are quite small.

You're right, though. Since Blizzard's bomb was such a big hit (it brought all the starcraft and warcraft players into MMORPGs), this next generation may be saturated in its wake of stench. ... Either that or deeply inspire some much needed innovation, which I somehow doubt from big name companies such as SOE, EA, THQ, and Atari (yes, I do bash the company I work for, and I enjoy it).

Now for the nitty-gritty: Instances: They're not bad and they're not what causes problems with communities. It's how they're used that makes them harmful. I can see large dungeons and battle fields being separated from the masses as a necessity, but if they're the only thing you can do in the end, then the community will suffer.

Guilds: These are like social groups; what better way to get to know lots of people and hang out with them? The problem? They become elitist and concentrate entirely on the end-game content. In WoW, there is no point in recruiting people except to have more players ready for the big 40-man raid of dungeon #22B (who cares what it is? you only hope that some good loot drops and the leader doesn't give it to someone else). The purpose of a guild is to bring people together to share common interests, which is utterly perverted by that atrocity of software of Wars and Crafts. Other games have solved this problem by giving an incentive to invite people into the guild: minor taxes on all members for accumulating a large guild bank, upgrades that benefit everyone in the guild that require a certain amount of members, etc. Just perks for bringing people aboard to be friends.

Graphics: Well, WoW actually got away with literally 'smoke n mirrors'. They used low-poly models, med-res textures, no normal / parallax / shadow / or relief mapping, low specular, and no bloom with minimal Direct 3D lighting... a guy with a 5-year-old laptop can play it. Obviously graphics are just gravy.

End game is what kills the big game of the market. Surprisingly, every other game has better end-game content than the Blizzkid, yet they all fail miserably at delivering in the general content up to the point, which 'WoWz' delivers. What people want is instant gratification, and that is what Warcraft offers; but like playing snakes and ladders, it's never truly fulfilling and it leaves much to be desired when you reach the top.

So, yes, there are plenty of things that should be rooted out from game plans, yet the big-shot guys and those with diluted minds will never deliver the games people truly desire (Throne of Chaos, anyone?) until someone who has their head straight does first.

(Now the cheesy part): Will YOU be that someone? o_O

I like this post as it address's a lot of issues in games today.  I leave a game far before I have explored it due to the community dissolving around me.  So why does the community dissapear?

My thoughts:

* Lack of events that require large parts of the community to come together

* Games with not enough zones to mingle in

* No loyalty to one side or another.

Games are most successful when players feel part of a larger group or race.  Too many games unintentionally promote power leveling thus bringing an end to the game for the players who max out. 

Guilds are a good idea but what I have found as a solo player is that if you want to group its hard to find people who are not tied up with their own guilds etc.  Some games like the older Jumpgate had a good system where there would be a universal announcement of a gate being taken over by a mothership NPC.  I was lucky enough to fly there and be part of a mass fleet killing a mother NPC for the good of all. That was special and something I have not come across again.

Some ideas to draw the larger community together.

* Games within games. Have card games, dice games in taverns or similar.  So players can drop in for a game against strangers. Give a break from combat / crafting and another way to make money.

* NPC raids on large towns, market. Wherever. As long as it requires a large community to defend or fight it off.  A warhorn could sound all hell breaks loose.  Imagine an NPC faction raiding your races town and players / friendly NPC's fighting side by side.  All levels can get involved.

* Tournaments. 1 on 1 and team combat. However you can only use the equipment and weapons the organizers supply.  So its a real slug fest. Crowds can come and watch etc. 

* Special skills you can only administer in person.  Neocrom would have a market square and an implanter could make a good trade by plug-in chips into people's heads.  In fantasy what happened to identify items skill?  Could have identify skill, repair skill, magic buff for items that last 24 hrs whatever.  Have a market square where you could rent out a stall and players have to use your special skill. 

Remove the power leveling frenzy and bring in events / actions that require a larger player base to get involved. That way even if I was an lvl 50 knight and had capped. I would be inclined to play on if I felt I could stand in the fray of a raid and help those less powerful.  Also some wackier ideas could be to have NPC auctions.  They show a special item and a ticker goes down from 1 minute. You can bid as much as you want until timer runs out.  However item has a minimum price to avoid cheating.   These can be held around the world and announced in advance and real time.  I would love to see 10-100 players in an auction all bidding madly. 

Basically developers need to work on community events and less on grind options. 

Only one thing to say to the last post...

AMEN

Originally posted by chryses

 

I like this post as it address's a lot of issues in games today.  I leave a game far before I have explored it due to the community dissolving around me.  So why does the community dissapear?

My thoughts:

* Lack of events that require large parts of the community to come together

* Games with not enough zones to mingle in

* No loyalty to one side or another.

Games are most successful when players feel part of a larger group or race.  Too many games unintentionally promote power leveling thus bringing an end to the game for the players who max out. 

Guilds are a good idea but what I have found as a solo player is that if you want to group its hard to find people who are not tied up with their own guilds etc.  Some games like the older Jumpgate had a good system where there would be a universal announcement of a gate being taken over by a mothership NPC.  I was lucky enough to fly there and be part of a mass fleet killing a mother NPC for the good of all. That was special and something I have not come across again.

Some ideas to draw the larger community together.

* Games within games. Have card games, dice games in taverns or similar.  So players can drop in for a game against strangers. Give a break from combat / crafting and another way to make money.

* NPC raids on large towns, market. Wherever. As long as it requires a large community to defend or fight it off.  A warhorn could sound all hell breaks loose.  Imagine an NPC faction raiding your races town and players / friendly NPC's fighting side by side.  All levels can get involved.

* Tournaments. 1 on 1 and team combat. However you can only use the equipment and weapons the organizers supply.  So its a real slug fest. Crowds can come and watch etc. 

* Special skills you can only administer in person.  Neocrom would have a market square and an implanter could make a good trade by plug-in chips into people's heads.  In fantasy what happened to identify items skill?  Could have identify skill, repair skill, magic buff for items that last 24 hrs whatever.  Have a market square where you could rent out a stall and players have to use your special skill. 

Remove the power leveling frenzy and bring in events / actions that require a larger player base to get involved. That way even if I was an lvl 50 knight and had capped. I would be inclined to play on if I felt I could stand in the fray of a raid and help those less powerful.  Also some wackier ideas could be to have NPC auctions.  They show a special item and a ticker goes down from 1 minute. You can bid as much as you want until timer runs out.  However item has a minimum price to avoid cheating.   These can be held around the world and announced in advance and real time.  I would love to see 10-100 players in an auction all bidding madly. 

Basically developers need to work on community events and less on grind options. 

• Large scale auction houses - This is bad for crafters since it replace the reason for people to search for crafters and their shops.  I think it should be that auction houses should be local to the city, and that there is a need to search for crafters and their shops.  This way the crafters won't feel that they are the minority in the whole community.  Auction houses benefit the combat players, not crafter players.
  
• Cash Economies instead of Item based economies. - When you say cash economies instead of item based economies, you mean that everything is pay by money instead of trading items?  This isn't that much a big deal if the idea is that you get resources, not special items when killing mobs.  Then you can trade resources for the stuff you need from crafters.
  
• Over elaborate Graphics add nothing to real gameplay - It does help for immersion in the game though.  But it shouldn't be what the developers are focusing on.  Game play should be the major design, not graphic.
  
• Raid and End Game /(Lazy development rather than design a decent progression system) - Raid and "endgame" isn't bad, as long as it doesn't force the players to participate in order to compete with others.  Why compete when you don't like certain style of gameplay?  If the raid is design around the community, and that it gives more meaning to raid instead of raiding and hope for a loot that you'll be competing for with your raid group.
  

Originally posted by Isane

I am looking for people who know a little more than myself to discuss several points below:-

Are communities now redundant with the introduction of Guilds ?

Are communities now redundant due to the scale and number of players within MMORPG Instances Servers ?

Have features been introduced to MMORPG's for the masses that inhibit 3rd Generation MMORPG's ever developing to the next level?

My current view is that certain features add no real value to the gaming experience:-

• Large scale auction houses
• Cash Economies instead of Item based economies.
• Over elaborate Graphics add nothing to real gameplay
• Raid and End Game /(Lazy development rather than design a decent progression system)

But maybe I'm wrong but from what I am seeing none of the new crop of games add anything exciting...

So we all agree that a world needs to be developed so that actions by real players have an effect on how it evolves.  I can see a lot of people saying that by doing this the time + money to make a game should go into the graphics first to draw in the big crowds.  Hey I love eye candy and even I fall into its evil grasp now and then only to find out I have lost 3 months in a fluffy world full of pastel colours with no game content.   I believe that you can have a dynamic world with good graphics and get it out early. 

Are communities now redundant due to the scale and number of players within MMORPG Instances Servers ?

From what I have seen there has never been such a thing as "too many players" except when the servers start getting bogged down. The more players the more you meet and the more you remember. That's my experience.

Have features been introduced to MMORPG's for the masses that inhibit 3rd Generation MMORPG's ever developing to the next level?

This is an amazing question, and something I wish more developers would ask. I definately feel that instancing an un-changing dungeon is totally against the evolution of MMORPGs. I have my beefs with instancing on its own, but just having a static instance is just painful. CoH provided people with changing instances keeping things interesting and I think that was the right direction.

My current view is that certain features add no real value to the gaming experience:-

• Large scale auction houses
  • This is a convenience, I have seen pretty much the complete evolution of this idea from EQ's complete neglect for a system, to its "revolutionary" bazaar which then got upgraded to WoW's auction house idea. Also there was UO's idea of vendor sale (which a lot of asian games take advantage of). It's a lose/lose situation really, either you lose out on the community building aspects of a free unguided economy (original EQ or UO), but also make trading a severe thorn in people's sides. Or you take the auction house/cosigner approach which does nothing to build community, but makes it easier on the players. The evolution of MMORPG's needs a third system which allows for both positives to be present. Some progress has been made with the auction house systems allowing you to see who bought your goods, or to search by player name.
    
• Cash Economies instead of Item based economies.
  • History has taught us that money is the ultimate median for the trade of goods, and as it's not going anywhere in the real world I also don't see it changing that much in the online world.
    
• Over elaborate Graphics add nothing to real gameplay
  • I hope this is something that is addressed soon. I am sick and tired of seeing a magnificent waterfall, that is blocked by an imaginary wall and completely useless. I think the next generation of games will be much more interactive with their environments.
    
• Raid and End Game /(Lazy development rather than design a decent progression system)
  • Raiding is almost a necessary evil. You either grind out 100 levels to find nothing amazing at the end, or you grind out 70 levels and find some different things to do in large groups.  Actually I disagree with your assumption that raid content is a lazy approach to a progression system. Granted the scale of the raids could be much better than they currently are. To say that it is lazy to include end-game content instead of just tacking on 30 more levels in an expansion and making the leveling curve steeper is lazy... I don't know how raids would be the lazier approach.
    

Well I am Glad I started this thread and soem nice replies now I think I'll reply to my question the features below

My current view is that certain features add no real value to the gaming experience:-

• Large scale auction houses

These really do not add any value other than pander to the "Greed Merchants", I would love the Player vendors to come back. This pormotes a little more than hack and slash but works against the types who just want hack n slash rinse and repeat. No game in selling items browsing the shops well that can be no fun.

I remember the fun I had in this scenario and it doesnt exist anymore

Capping of all item values, where those are sold within any auction or offline environment.

• Cash Economies instead of Item based economies.

Added complexity nobody wan't this anymore , I just want to see item tradeoffs to limit movement of piles of ready cash. must be a way to do this. Maybe player based economies have to be put on hold i just don't know

• Over elaborate Graphics add nothing to real gameplay

No Brainer ...

• Raid and End Game /(Lazy development rather than design a decent progression system)

UHm I disagree with a lot of these responses on this one , game design should not be beatable so endgame should not be required. I hope some up and coming games address this.

I think the EQ design should be put to pasture - forever.   Plus I'm tired of high fantasy really.   I like it, don't get me wrong, but we need some serious sci-fi based MMORPG's to come along that are similar to SWG -not just ships like EVE either(those get old too).   A sci-fi game based on Firefly, Space: Above and Beyond, Robotech(yes I know all about this anime - my brothers watched it religiously).  Anything other than elves, orcs and undead!

Oh yea...what mistakes should be removed in general.  Hmmm...pure classes.  Give us classes, but give us the ability to multi-class, something similar to SWG's old style of character development or maybe AC's open ended character development.

Remove player controlled economies.   Script into the game AI markets that determine the price of items and goods based on supply and demand.

Remove player ran cities.   Let players utilize exisiting cities that are built into the game.   This way the games cities seem more alive when players actually become a part of those cities.  This does many things.  Removes the burden of programming such things into a game and utilizes existing in game resources cutting back on production times and creates less bugs to squash.

Remove grinding.   Yep....no more levels.   Please.   Just allow us to train up into new equipment, better equipment, new skills.   What does this do?  It eliminates the need to have to grind and grind for hours to get past killing rats.   Level based games are so yesterday.    I could explain in depth how to do this, but I just don't have the time...maybe in another thread.   Eliminating levels also means easier to script game play - that is still challenging, and with one great advantage - anyone can play with anyone and not feel left out due to level differences!   Sorta like Planetside.   A BR6 can play right beside a BR25 and neither is effected by the others level.   Both can compete in the game at the same level - one just has access to better gear, equipment, and skill sets.

Remove player crafted items and script NPC's that can tweak or modify existing items.  Long explaination and not enough time.

Remove stagnate MOB's.   They stand there and just do nothing or pace back and forth.   Give them some AI and personality!   If a creature is scared of its own shadow - then script it to be jumpy and take of running under the right circumstances.   If it is a stealthy hunter...make it roam and act stealthy...don't just slap it down on a terrain and have it stand there like a statue.    Again...I can go into great detail here as well and just don't have the time.

Just a few things.

Players should not be linked to a specific server.

Instead, once you select your character, you select any server (with the same rules) that you want to join and go play.

Instancing are a blessing.  Each server is an instanced of a world.  Limiting the players to 1/20 of the player base is not a good move.  Players would naturally tend to stick to the same server(s).  But, they can move freely that way...no need for server consolidation or opening a new server with the problematics it arise.  Players would just spread for less lag or more players based on their gut feeling.

Benefits:

- Communities can merged and split as they wish.

- No server population control, no need to merge servers and run such database.

- Donkeys players can restart anew on another server and become less of a donkey.

- You can always play with your RL friends.

- Server maintenance will go unoticed by players 95% of the time, as you adjust a few at a time, they would just pick another server (maybe the same name, maybe a different name).

- It would be easier to assess the game progression for the devs.

- Likemind players can find each other...

Originally posted by Isane

I am looking for people who know a little more than myself to discuss several points below:-

Are communities now redundant with the introduction of Guilds ? Well kinda. But i really dont think it hurts too much. I'll have to think on this one a bit and get back to you.

Are communities now redundant due to the scale and number of players within MMORPG Instances Servers ?

Well just my personal opinion on instances, zones, or "chunks". They should be eliminated. Seamless worlds where people could explore is what everyone is looking for now. Instances hurt the community by limiting player interaction.

Have features been introduced to MMORPG's for the masses that inhibit 3rd Generation MMORPG's ever developing to the next level?

No they aren't. In fact they keep rehashing the same basic gameplay (aka everything is based around leveling) and put a new flavor on it. Its time for them to go over that and embrace true immersive gameplay with skill based. So no, they haven't.

My current view is that certain features add no real value to the gaming experience:-

• Large scale auction houses I agree, in fact this makes it easier for gold farmers to ruin your game. AND it eliminates player interaction. In SWG (used to be anyway) most everything was made by a crafter. Therefor there were a lot of shops that had differing prices etc. This made it a bit harder for currency sellers to thrive.
  
• Cash Economies instead of Item based economies.  I agree and this actually links up with the above point. Player made economies are great.
  
• Over elaborate Graphics add nothing to real gameplay Well if its done too much that your lagging all over the place then yes it does but i believe with a little innovative thinking you can make a little look like a lot. However I believe that graphics will soon need to be more realistic as the above changes take place. For more immersive worlds. OH! and not to mention interactive stuff. Sick of seeing trees I go right through or cant shop down, etc.
  
• Raid and End Game /(Lazy development rather than design a decent progression system) I totally agree. This aspect of past games really needs to be laid to rest. Well.... at least the mass production of them aka WoW. I believe scripted events is the next big logical step to gaming. In which, a group of players kill or trespass in a certian NPC clans area way to many times, they get mad, and through scripting, attack the nearest player city. In addition to that they may attack NPC traders going from player town to player town, scripting a quest of some sorts. This and real warfare between players and thier made nations will be a great means to content. Nuff said on this for now. ;)

But maybe I'm wrong but from what I am seeing none of the new crop of games add anything exciting...

No, in fact let me welcome you to the group in this section of the forums. We are the ones that see games for what they are currently going through. You are correct in your observation. :) Now we just need to get the attention of intelligent devs that care. :)

 

 

 

Originally posted by Cr1ms

Large scale auction houses:

    IMO this is pretty much required, as a fundamental driving force for player driven economies, and I definitely don't feel that it takes away from the gaming experience.  Personally, I hate being without an auction house, being forced to resort to a horribly impractical trade chat, or scouring through little shops to see what's available. Nonsense :) if you have ever experienced SWG (back in the day of pre-cu) you would know this isnt true. In fact that system helped crafters alot by making prices differ, making them actually get a name (expecially if they went above and beyond and MADE themselfs become the best of the best. It also increased player interactivity. Some of the people that harvested resources became suppliers, creating an interdependent economy.    I don't really see how an auction house is detrimental to people that craft when it just provides for an easier way for them to list their products. In certian games like WoW crafters really don't mean crap anyway due to most of their wares are null due to raid stuff. Not to mention on the auction house everything is the same and the prices are usually the same. Furthermore, it makes it alot easier for currency farmers to gain a hold on the MMORPG that is being talked about. The way the auction house was implemented in FFXI was actually a benefit to crafters because if you wanted to have someone craft a product, you could get on the auction house and look at recent sellers to see who was available. Actually firstly, ffxi's crafting was horrible, nothing degraded therefore it was inevitable that prices drop on some objects and the market be flooded, new players or not. As for their AH it helped the gil farmers due to making it easier to sell. They farm something, and sell it for all to see. Easy gil. Nuff said on this. Just my opinion and experience.

Originally posted by chryses

So we all agree that a world needs to be developed so that actions by real players have an effect on how it evolves.  I can see a lot of people saying that by doing this the time + money to make a game should go into the graphics first to draw in the big crowds.  Hey I love eye candy and even I fall into its evil grasp now and then only to find out I have lost 3 months in a fluffy world full of pastel colours with no game content.   I believe that you can have a dynamic world with good graphics and get it out early.

Here is where I respectfully disagree, i think gameplay design should be placed well in front of the graphics. The reason is simple: You can have all the graphics in the world, but if your game is just another clone of a previous game (aka wow or eq) or even a crappy game, then people will spot that after a short time and move on to something that has new experiences to offer. IT is just a hard cold fact. But I agree in the context that graphics would help a lot in ADDITION to that for complete immersion.

E.g. have a storyline of a devastated world that needs to be rebuilt.  Players come into the game knowing there will not be flowing banners from castle walls with large inns dotted around the landscape. Just barren land that contains the minimum requirements..(Craft stations, outposts etc) for players to build the world themselves. Well I agree with this up to a point. I think main (but small) cites should be there for strictly background story support, immersion, and to help players get started. Other than that. Go out and knock yourselves out players! Of course they really don’t! But have progress bars for several areas in the world such as blacksmith, bank, armourer, market etc.  Where a ruined city lies players can craft, hunt for skins, kill raiders, deliver supplies etc.  For every supply, skin and other items delivered the progress bar goes up .01 or something.  Once this is at 100% the building is constructed but can say "completion pending". So developers can have 1-3+ months to gradually build the world as players complete the projects. A very interesting idea. :)

I think for a community event the best idea I have is to announce a raid on gold selling spammers. LOL