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Hi, I want to start crafting lower level stuff...but it seems to me that after doing the math, it's just not worth it at the lower levels. Let's take an example of a Frigate - Amarr Tormentor. To craft this little guy, you need the following (the prices are a random sampling of some of the sellers - just a quick little average): 3 ISO @90.00 = 270.00isk, 695 MEX @27.00=18,765isk, 273 PYER @9.00=2,457isk, 2786 TRIT @2.40=6,686isk That's a total of 28,178isk in just raw materials off of the market (at some quick average pricing). Of course let's factor in that you could mine a bunch of this stuff yourself... Now add the cost of the bluprint: around 220,000isk as well as the costs to manufacture the item... Currently on the market, these Frigs are going for 20,000 to 25,000isk. Even if you could mine a bunch of the raw materials (given the time involved), instead of purchasing the raw materials, you could 'maybe' squeeze $1,000isk profit out of one of them... So you would have to sell over 220,000 Frigs just to re-coup the cost of the blueprint.... How are the people selling these things at 20,000isk making any money? Or are they just left-over orders from a time-gone-past when the market prices actually made sense? Or is there a timing to these sell orders (dunno yet - kinda new to the game - just one month). Or what? It's making my brain hurt... Is the market just broken? or skewed that badly? or...I dunno. It seems to me that the prices of ore in relation to these finished products at the lower levels are so way out of whack that something just isn't right. No one in their right mind would mine a lot of this stuff just to eventually get 1,000isk profit off a ship (and 1,000isk is being very generous in this example - buying ore straight off the market you would be selling at a flat out loss all of the time - unless my math and logic are just completely wrong). Heck - it's just better to find a buyer either for your ore, or your refined materials and just leave it at that. Kinda hampers my interpretation of what is actually possible in this game as far as manufacturing goes. At the beginning stages it looks like crafting for profit is just not attainable - at all - period. Kinda off-putting for me. It would be nice to be able to actually set up a little operation to make 'something'...'anything' actually. Heck I could even live with a 'little' offset in the market. But to not even be able to sell an item for even a little profit at the lower levels...Dunno... ...it leaves the main source of income as being mining (yawn), salvaging, and missions. It seems like manufacturing has been completely eliminated from the equation at this level. If so - and my logic is right, then my question is: "when does manufacturing become a viable and profitable activity in this game?" Thanks in advance! |
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6/05/07 1:50:29 PM#2
Most dont bother with frigates i advise you buy some ammunition BPO's and some small gun BPO's and sell those instead. In bulk ammounts of course and remember to do material reserch on the blueprints to reduce the minerall needs per batch.
Also its worth noting that with some products it can take a while to see a profit, sometimes you need to sell in large ammounts at low prices in order to make ends meet but this is just a factor of the player run economy. As in customers buy the cheaper products first.
Also dont knock mining i know its boring but its a great way of reducing the Isk cost of your products. One idea is to join a manufacturing corp ahve some people mine for you and use the mineralls they get. |
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6/05/07 2:31:38 PM#3
"Is the market just broken? or skewed that badly? or...I dunno. "
Supply & Demand There are plenty of areas where the said ship (ie example) is selling for a LOT more then the price you quoted. Also, the *lowest* reported price for the Tormentor is the 20k you mentioned. The average is 43.6k ISK. Try looking at numbers a little closer to "real" then the lowest on the market. The market is very intresting. Do not think that one glance in a single region is a dynamic view of the entire life of the market. Be sure to check histories to see how many or how long said items are being sold at said price. http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=591 p.s. Those ships are showing as being sold for 31k which happens to be Amarr's home system. Edit: Going to show the lowest base price availble to theortically construct a Tormentor not including BPO/BPC and manufacturing costs. Someone more knowledgeable will have to expand on the costs to rent manufacturing slots and researching. Isogen 3x 60.00 @ 180.00; Mexallon 695 x 18 @ 12,510.00; Pyerite 273 x 5 @ 1,365.00; Tritanium 2786 x 1.50 @ 4,179.00; = 18,234.00 ISK per Tormentor. Minning, processing and manufacturing will lower the price of production even further!
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6/05/07 2:37:10 PM#4
Frigates are problematic because you are not simply competing against other player but also against NPC companies. Most frigs cost so little because CCP doesnt want people to have hard time moving from ship to ship so early. If you want to compare it to RL example it will be very close to steel industry today, it takes gigantic amount of resources, staff and assets but you get very little profit. So unless you can produced millions of tons of steel each day there is no point. Same thing here. There are a couple other goods in EVE that follow the same pattern.
Now EVE follows very closely with market model of the real market, I think you are going about it a bit wrong. Instead of living the dream and saying I want to build ships you first need to analize the market and see what market needs, what are the price trends, what are the rate of sales in different systems and regions. If you understand how PvP and mission system works it will also make the job a lot eaiser because you will be able to understand why some systems thrive and others are just empty (from economical persepctive). Back when I started 'crafting', I started with ammo. The reason is, everyone uses it. Billions of units of ammo are sold daily, so I know that there is always a demand. It is cheap to make, so you can make alot of it with loosing your wallet, granted you will be making very little profit per 100 rounds but if you sell 100 - 200k ammo it adds up. Now you have to ask yourself one very important question: Why should I buy your ammo and not the guy next to you? Is it better? No. It is chaper? Well you can make it cheaper but then you are really going to be cutting into your profits, or you need to find more ways to cut costs. Is it close to me? Well this is where you can really shine; people dont like to travel, even from station to station. We like it to be in the same station as we are. In order to get it to the right place you have analize who are your customers; in most cases they will be beginners and mission runners. Based on that you can decide where to sell your items. What type of ammo do I want to produce? Well, that depend on where you are (dont sell missile in ammar space). As to what type, if you know the game dynamics you can answer that without my help (hint: people like to snipe or go up really close). That is the basics, I can keep going and going because there is just so much to say and so much to explain, if you like this stuff and want to know more I would suggest you take course on market analysis in collage. Essentially, when you are deciding if you want to craft anything go though this analytical cycle to decide if what you are going to be doing will be profitable. |
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Yes - thanks everyone for your insights. It is very helpful. Part of my problem may be that I am focusing in on ships (frigs) in newbie areas - and maybe that's the issue. As you stated Urza, I might have just picked a bad example to zone in on. The possibilities for crafting things is so large, that my mind just zeroed in on something that I could easily start researching: i.e. ships. I also haven't ventured out much further than TASH-MURKON to see what's available. Part of it's just paranoia at this point because I'm not at a level yet where I want to take much risk. I was just hoping to start out on 'something' just to get a feel for manufacturing even though it's making little money right now. Maybe ammo is the way to start out just to get an idea of how I can expand operations in the future. |
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6/05/07 3:29:04 PM#6
Ammo production is a good way of learning the trade because.... The blueprints are cheap Demand is great Ammo is cheap to make.
So witht hese points in mind you can see why ammo is great for learning not only how to build something but also how to sell something. I wish you luck in your endevours. |
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6/05/07 3:38:48 PM#7
One thing you must also consider is that most manufacturers do not "buy" their mins. I don't mean that they mine, I mean they setup a purchase order so that the can get the minerals at a cheaper price. You buy what you need off the market it may cost you 90 isk, if you set up a buy order and wait till somebody fills it you could get the same item for 60 isk. While you won't nessicarily have the minerals on demand that you would with buying the minerals you'll make a larger profit.
The other thing to consider is that all BPOs are long term purchases, you will never make your capital back quickly. This is because eventually you will make the money back and your profit increases. Start working up your production effeciency skills also as it will reduce the number of minerals required to build each ship. |
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Great! ...again thanks alot! Gonna try some ideas over the next couple of weeks (gotta train, train, train). A great group of posters on this forum board. I really appreciate it!
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6/06/07 9:00:57 AM#9
Just another few tips from a old eve vet, the market screen has masses of info ready to be looked at to help you make profits.
Location of your sales eve down to the station in a system can be the difference between average profit and good profit. best examply of this is Jita 4-4 . When i played i use to buy other peoples manufactured good and bring them here in by the truck load to sell. I even purchased items from other stations in Jita and then resold them in 4-4 for alot more isk. Location will make or break you sales, people dont want to travel to save 10k isk on a weapon. this is why so many trade hubs have formed all over the univerise, make them where its cheap bur ship them to the station trade hubs for sale, all items can easy be done this way except ships as you need a freighter to do these in bulk. As a side note watch out for high sec pirates, when shipping use un prime time times and dont allways use the auto piolet routes as these can be camped, |
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6/06/07 1:18:11 PM#10
The completely open industry and production operations of this game have fascinated me since day one. It is also quite interesting that there are so many who play the game who do not understand the difference between accounting profit and economic profit.
Ammo is definitely the way to go. You will need to research the BPO's to get better rates, and Production Efficiency V doesn't hurt, either. (1) Buy isogen off market for 90/unit from best sell order, or buy it yourself, slowly over time, using regional orders for 60/unit. Repeat as necessary with other required minerals. Or, place buy orders at mission hubs (stations with lots of L2/L3 agents). People will refine their loot and dump it quickly. You can significantly drop the "accounting" cost of your minerals. Hint: Do not buy minerals off of the market at spot prices. You will not be able to compete. (2) Mine the minerals yourself (or with your corp). Your cost is now significantly lower, in fact they have 0 "accounting" cost. They still have an "economic" cost, where this is defined as the "next best thing" you could be doing with the minerals. In Eve, this means selling the minerals on the market with sell orders. (3) As should be obvious by now, you will need to build up your trade skills because of situations (1) and (2). (4) And you'll need an industrial ship to move all of this stuff around. (5) As others have said, I recommend ammo. Again, look to mission hubs and 0.0 border systems. Eve has a very intense learning curve and codependent skill set. It is not for every player. For those who like this stuff, this is an amazing game. Finally, it is slow. It takes time to earn a few million ISK for BPO's and to train up those skills. Finally, I like to point out that those who are selling the ship at 26,000 are doing so at an economic loss. (This comparison can be done on any ship or module.) Given that they mined the minerals themselves, their costs are effectively 0, beyond what they want to be paid for their time. If you can sell the minerals outright for 32,000, then producing the ship is not the best thing you can do with your time and ISK. This means that as you grow, you will want to diversify. The markets will fluctuate. Maybe Scourge missiles will be making 2M ISK per day this week. Next week, the money will be in Cap Booster charges. It takes time to be a good industrialist. Just remember that all of those pirates out there need you. And you need them. You need them to blow stuff up so others have to buy more. Sometimes, that will mean that they blow you up. It happens. You will be blown up in Eve. You will be podded. Learn from it. Adapt. And since you're building everything, at least you get your own stuff for free. Keep building more! |
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montin
Novice Member
Joined: 11/28/05
Education is what survives when what has been learnt has been forgotten. B.F. Skinner |
6/06/07 1:24:28 PM#11
I've not played Eve for over a year and reading these posts brought back happy memories of large scale mining and production. I wonder how long they keep player details for. Hopefully longer than SOE who deleted my maxed character in EQ2. Think I'll find out. Anyway the advice to make ammo is good. Whilst it maybe not very exciting it is always needed. Think supply and demand and you wont go far wrong.
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6/06/07 2:52:35 PM#12
1) You can't make a profit on T1 frigates unless you take the time to research the BPO's ME level up a bit. Throw it in a research line for 15 runs or so then re-do your math and you will find that it's suddenly MUCH cheaper to produce the item.
2) Train up your production efficiency skill to 4 (takes no time at all) and you will find that it's now even CHEAPER to produce. 3) Don't BUY minerals on the market. Put up BUY ORDERS for the minerals you need. Again... it's now even Cheaper to produce. 4) If you STILL don't like the profit margin you are getting then reprocess loot that doesn't sell well after missions and use those to defray costs or take the time to mine some of the minerals. Suddenly that 1,000isk profit per unit is nearly 50% profit per unit.... BUT!!!! Don't do this with just any ship BPO. Find the ships that are in demand and make those. Merlins Kestrels Rifters Punishers etc. Those sell well above their manufacturing costs (relatively speaking) already. Also: Pay attention to the MARKET. Some areas the ships sell very close to margin, other areas they sell far ABOVE margin. You need to take the time to find your market and sell there. ALSO: Once you have a r&d agent you can start using that BPO to make BPC's and try invention out. High ME/PE BPC's, if invention is successful, yield high ME/PE T2 BPC's, which you can then sell for great profit OR you can build the T2 ship yourself. There's a LOT more to production than just buying a BPO and jumping into making things. A LOT of different things go into whether you will make a profit or not. Personally I make destroyers. I make over 300,000isk profit per unit usually. |
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6/06/07 3:19:18 PM#13
Hi Fgauer,
when building items with strong competition you will usually make 10-15% profit with minerals bought from the market, if you have perfect skills and a BP researched for material efficiency. But even then, there are sometimes dumping offers below the price of the materials. The most important skill is Production Efficiency, which reduces your material consumption by 5% per level. If you train it to level 5, you will need 25% less material for building an item (the resulting number is given as "perfect" in the Bill Of Materials on the BP). I strongly recommend that, even if it takes 2-3 weeks of skilling time. The second important thing is having a BP that is researched for Material Efficiency. An unresearched BP will waste 10% of its materials. When it is researched to material level ME, then the wastage is 10%/(1 + ME). For instance, a BP with ME 19 will waste only 10%/(1 + 19) = 0.5%. If you don't have the above prerequisites, you need to look for locations and items that have been neglected by the competition. But be prepared that those opportunities are often short-lived. |
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6/07/07 4:42:33 AM#14
The most basic start on production: Production Efficency LVL 4 (5 is preferred) After that, you can build anything (even frigates, just make sure you're getting a decent profit margin) |
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6/07/07 11:49:07 AM#15
well frist of all look at the market tab it might just be a low time
and second go off into a lower sec area the price will rise then again that frig is pretty useless anyways comnpared to the better ones. start building rifters and selling them as far away form jita as you can possible get. REMEMBER EvE has a living econmy, just because it's 20k in one spot doesn't mean it's not 50k in another |
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6/07/07 11:51:24 AM#16
oh and you can resrceach blue prints to make them cost less to build
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6/09/07 12:07:16 AM#17
The foundation of industry is MINING. Beginning industrialists mine their own minerals, both to fund their BPO library, and also to begin producing things to sell. Advanced manufacturers don't have to mine, they can afford to put up buy orders for minerals, and pop out stuff they KNOW will sell from their vast library of tweaked T1 and T2 BPO's. Almost every industrialist I know on a first name basis is a roid-hugger. |
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6/10/07 5:33:47 AM#18
Originally posted by fgauer First of all, get rid of that "not at that level" mentality, it's only a hindrance to you and will only server to limit your potential. Sure there are players that know alot more about the game than you and you might never reach their "level" but taking chances is fun in EVE. You could for example move to Dabrid, there a are a few amarr lvl 4 agents there and the players doing them more than occasionally need stuff. instead of trying to aim at the lower end players of eve (t1 frigates) why not try to sell ammo, drones or simply trade, buy cheap in Tash Murkon Prime and move it to Dabrid as an example. And vice versa, the mission runners in Dabrid are sometimes lazy, put up cheap buy orders for named laser guns and then haul them to Tash Murkon Prime to sell for a profit. Doing trading and manufacturing at the same time is a natural combination since your most likely hauling stuff around anyway. |
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Originally posted by Barrow Actually I'm going to take you up on this advice. You are correct - I'm probably playing things too conservative and I should risk it a bit to see what happens. The manufacturing has been working surprisingly well. I took advice from this thread and started manufacturing missles. It's been a good way to learn about the ores and get a good primer into how the economy actually functions. I'm actually making a profit as well, albeit small. But it's a good start and I'm learning the ropes and how the whole rythm of research, manufacturing, trade, and selling goes. I've never played primarily a crafter - but in this game it's fun. There are so many nuances to the economy. Just a single jump into another region can literally double your profits. And this just still in high sec space. Also some of the newbie raw ores sell surprising well and and the variations you can put on your sell orders really makes a difference. ...could actually just sit back and manufacture /sell for a long-time and have a great time at it! |
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6/11/07 8:14:33 PM#20
Glad you started figuring it out, never did very well manufacturing stuff for profit
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