Originally posted by Landogarner
I tried to give EVE a chance but the controls in battle leave too much to be desired. Heck I get frustrated in WoW with the global cooldown. I want pvp that rewards the fastest and most skilled players!!!! Aren't any of you game developers out there listening???

obviously likes excessive amounts of big numbers.

To be honest, there is nothing "strange" about CCP allowing customers to audit their company.  It happens all the time in manufacturing.

The only thing to worry about is the fact that the customers that become responsible for critiquing CCP's processes are going to be chosen in what will become nothing more then a simple, high school style, popularity contest.  People that would be "good" at the job, and perhaps be less biased won't get the position.  Even worse we may see people get into the position whose sole intention is to destroy the game for others.


In any case, the simple fact that CCP is willing to allow this at all, when no other MMO developer I know of out there has done it ( i  may be wrong) is a massive plus in my eyes.

Originally posted by krava81
In any case, the simple fact that CCP is willing to allow this at all, when no other MMO developer I know of out there has done it ( i  may be wrong) is a massive plus in my eyes.

The simple fact is.... no matter what CCP does.... there are folks that won't be happy.  They could announce tomorrow that no Dev will ever be permitted to play the game again (a bad move IMO) and many would disbelieve it and call it a PR stunt and hype.

There is absolutely nothing CCP can do to regain the trust of these hard core detractors.  They really should just ignore them, hope they all quit the game, (or at least quit whining about it) and leave EVE for the rest of us who are willing to carry on.

I play EVE, the corp I just joined was destroyed by BOB in the recent wars, but they're not spending any time whining about it....they're rebuilding and have already re-entered 0.0 and are preparing for their next major campaign.

I haven't played EVE for over a year, and I have been critical of their recent shinanigans, but I have to applaud them for this move. Of course it is a PR move. So?  A company isn't allowed to affect its own image?  If you think not, then that's b.s.  

The real question is whether the nine representatives will be able to see what's really going on.  The devil is in the details here, but I'm willing to give CCP a chance.

This is a forum troll's wet dream. You get a free trip international, then you get to meet someone that DESIGNED a game with thousands of paying customers, and then tell them they are doing something WRONG. They never THANK you for your time and fly you home.

Honestly i think its utter BS. Its just leading to further politicising and RL connections of game aspects and another way
to influence the game. Not to overreact, but i think i get serious angry if i see any election ad somewhere and that is what
i think will happen as development of this.

They should just draw 20 people by random out of the user base, with public known algortihm and notarised drawing.

if players are willing to take eve as more than a game and cause disruption, then CCP need to take eve as more than a game also and follow with things like this. good on ya CCP

I think it has vast potential, and can only be a good thing.  I played EVE for a little while, and personally never really got into it; unless you're in a good massive corp and actively enjoy PvP (which I don't and never will), you're basically trapped at the lowest rungs of the game.  But that's neither here nor there--this "representative program" opens the door for some incredible opportunities, and I can't wait to see how it goes and what comes of it.  They just need to take care to make sure, in my opinion, that certain corps are not "over-represented", if you take my meaning.

Originally posted by Cerion

I haven't played EVE for over a year, and I have been critical of their recent shinanigans, but I have to applaud them for this move. Of course it is a PR move. So?  A company isn't allowed to affect its own image?  If you think not, then that's b.s.  

The real question is whether the nine representatives will be able to see what's really going on.  The devil is in the details here, but I'm willing to give CCP a chance.

I agree.  I expected them the completely ignore the issue.  I didn't expect them to make this bold of a move.  For now I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt on this until more details are announced.

I still want the MSN questions answered though.

And to answer some of the earlier questions, I understand that the author is a new player and contacted BoB and Goonswarm for comment.  But in any event, the comments made by the BoB members really didn't amount to much in the article.

After all of this time, CCP just doesn't "get it"...

I'm not a citizen.  I'm not their friend.  I'm not their regulator, and I don't pay good money to fly other customers to and from Iceland to make sure CCP is creating an honest game.  If this company is so bent on doing things their way that they can't adhere to acceptable standards in this industry, how can that be the consumer's problem?

If they want to solve the problem, all they have to do is to treat their consumers like what they are: consumers.  Not investors.  Not friends.  Not citizens.  Not representatives.  By serving the consumers, they save a lot more money, create a better game, and protect the integrity of the game.

Of course, that would imply that CCP starts acting like what they really are: producers.  Not corp members.  Not friends.  Not a government.  Not a boss.  By acting like producers, they save a lot more money, create a better game, and protect the integrirty of the game far better than this whole blurring of the distinctions between consumer, and producer.

But of course, they aren't willing to do what every P2P MMO service does for the sake of the game.  They want to interfere with the consumer's game, and force themselves on people who pay good money to be left alone to enjoy the game.  It's like buying a new pool table and having the salesman come home with you, bugging you to be their friend just so they can play pool with you.  At some point, you have to wonder who is trying to satisfy whom, and who should own the pool table.

You may be really good guys CCP, but why can't you just leave us alone to enjoy the things we pay to enjoy?

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by krava81
In any case, the simple fact that CCP is willing to allow this at all, when no other MMO developer I know of out there has done it ( i  may be wrong) is a massive plus in my eyes.

The simple fact is.... no matter what CCP does.... there are folks that won't be happy.  They could announce tomorrow that no Dev will ever be permitted to play the game again (a bad move IMO) and many would disbelieve it and call it a PR stunt and hype.

There is absolutely nothing CCP can do to regain the trust of these hard core detractors.  They really should just ignore them, hope they all quit the game, (or at least quit whining about it) and leave EVE for the rest of us who are willing to carry on.

I play EVE, the corp I just joined was destroyed by BOB in the recent wars, but they're not spending any time whining about it....they're rebuilding and have already re-entered 0.0 and are preparing for their next major campaign.

That's not true.  I think most people would start trusting CCP if CCP starts to act like what they are: a producer of a consumer service.

That means servicing the customer, rather than expecting the customer to service them.

I think that CCP, while making a bold move, is still not addressing the main problem here. I've kept up to date with everything that was posted by the Goons and CCP's investigations into the matter. And while they pretty much proved everything to be false (a point which can be debated at length for many reasons), they failed to even comment on what I considered to be the biggest problem in this whole mess... The level of visibility and involvement of the Devs in the live game.

CCP's main problem seems to be that they let their Devs play the game AS devs and make no effort to keep their employees from letting people know who they are. Instead of going to the extreme of flying people from all over the world to Iceland to audit the game, I would be more at ease seeing them post revised policies prohibiting their devs from having any direct contact with the live game while on the job. They should all have regular player accounts (which should be screened regulary) that can only be used outside the office and they should be prohibited from telling anyone in the game that they work for CCP.  I believe that most MMOs have something like this in place. I knew a dev from Mythic that was a member in my guild  in DAoC at the time, I didnt find out he was a dev until he resigned from the company and let a few of us know. He told us that he was under an NDA of sorts and that his game time outside work was logged. He told us about how they ran their dev tools and it seemed pretty clear that they set things up in a way that made it very difficult for a dev to do a "favor" for a friend and also made it very easy to catch any dev that tried.

I would rather see CCP spend some time, money and brain power on how to develop a system to make sure that they can prevent things like the MSN allegation from happening. I cant say whether or not I think it did, but I think it could very well have happened. CCP's IA department really isnt much more than a reactive approach. They need to put a lock down on what their devs are doing while on the job and focus on taking preventative steps instead.

I just hope they arent shooting themselves in the foot with this stunt. EVE is a great game and I would hate to see if suffer more than it has already.

someday people will accept that the titles "mmorpg" and "mmog" done have the meaning we give them today. As a first example, look at everquest 2, where on certain servers players can buy and sell in-game items. But that is a controlled baby-step. A better example is Second Life, where they refuse to even consider it a game. All in-game content in capable of being bought and sold. Better yet, their control over their own world has recently been weakened by a judicial decision that their EULA does not provide them the protection they believe it does.

The fact is, they are not MMOG's, they are MMOW's, online worlds subject to the laws and policies set forth by the countries in which they operate. but they don't operate within a country, the company the OWNS them does. This is the perspective of CCP, in my opinion. The companies that control these worlds typical use authoritarian power to control their populace. History has proven how most authoritarian governments end. The fact is they do end. England, Germany, Japan... pick a country, any country. No matter who 'creates' these nations, the real owners typically end up being those that reside there. Democracy usually wins.

Back to the point: these worlds function independently of their makers, and their owners. Just as a government, they function to protect their populace, and to arbitrate disagreements. The only significant difference between online worlds and real nations are borders and land. This is a serious problem for anyone who has studied political science. Can you have a nation that does not have a contigous border and land? My argument is yes. These online worlds have citizens, commerce, taxes (of various sorts, but not for revenue purposes), even politics. Granted, you are unlikely to see an invading army (as we know it today), but there are black markets, terrorism, and other sorts of things that attempt to undermine the controlling power.

If CCP fails to control EVE, while the game fail? unlikely. People will still want to play it up till it dies unless CCP does something to kill it; something even a real government could do. Even if CCP gives up, others will pick up where they failed and the game may truly reach the type of existence I imply. You don't have to believe me, and it may not happen to CCP (because they are smart and are compromising), but there's plenty of other MMO's out there, ones that are accepting this fate. Time will prove me right.

Check out Reuters for virtual currencies, more evidence toward what I am referring to.

I think CCP may just be making it worse. They should just do some public housecleaning or rule changes and leave it at that.

Originally posted by Landogarner
I tried to give EVE a chance but the controls in battle leave too much to be desired. Heck I get frustrated in WoW with the global cooldown. I want pvp that rewards the fastest and most skilled players!!!! Aren't any of you game developers out there listening???

Eh...Guild Wars? Playing an interrupt mesmer/ranger or whatever else needs extremely fast reflexes, especially when interrupting a spell with a 1/2 second cast time.

I don't see why people are complaining. CCP has actually taken initiative to improve their company and Eve, but people still find something to complain about!

Thumbs up from an active player with 4 accounts. My only worry is that Goonswarm and BoB will end up on that committee and frankly too many Goon members openly talk about destroying CCP and making the game as unpleasant an experience as they can for all the other players. Check out their State of the Union speech if you don't believe me.

Far too sad when people try to transfer their personal inadequacies into game.

Originally posted by Kossuth

Thumbs up from an active player with 4 accounts. My only worry is that Goonswarm and BoB will end up on that committee and frankly too many Goon members openly talk about destroying CCP and making the game as unpleasant an experience as they can for all the other players. Check out their State of the Union speech if you don't believe me.

Far too sad when people try to transfer their personal inadequacies into game.

Did a google search for their state of the union and came up with an EVE Blogger article that was written by an ex-director from goonswarm.  Check it out here: eveblogger.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/a-look-at-goonswarm-from-a-directors-eyes/

Anyone who doesn't want to read the whole blog.  Here's some quotes from members of Goon:

“We are fundamentally in this game to have fun at the expense of the people that we don’t like, and that means 90% of Eve.”

“We are not here to be nice. We are here to be a**holes that make the rest of the galaxy p**s themeselves when they contemplate being invaded by us. We accomplish this by being the meanest, cruelest, most sadistic group in the game.”

“And we are proud of our pariah status. It is a badge of our warped honor.”

“Griefing Pranks - We’re jerks, we’ve always been jerks. When we try not to be jerks, we stop having fun. . . . We have had our most fun in this game when we have been at our cruelest. When we are nice, we get bored”

“Our focus in this game is wrecking people we don’t like.”

“The easiest way to ‘fix’ Eve is to ruin CCP’s credibility in the industry, and totally ******* ruin the launch and first few months of their White Wolf RPG by epic degrees of****gotry and griefing, so that the only thing they have left is Eve. Eventually someone will see them as a profitable takeover target, and a company that isn’t run by ******s will buy them out. The headquarters for game development will be moved to a country that isn’t populated by unprofessional ice nig***s.” (Dawnfiend, post #1880)

“Trolling BoB threads on eve-o is universally encouraged” (Sesfan QuLah, GS CEO, “Standing Orders 5/30/2007″)

Must say this is the most immature and pathetic group in any game that I've ever seen.

Originally posted by Beatnik59

After all of this time, CCP just doesn't "get it"...

I'm not a citizen.  I'm not their friend.  I'm not their regulator, and I don't pay good money to fly other customers to and from Iceland to make sure CCP is creating an honest game.  If this company is so bent on doing things their way that they can't adhere to acceptable standards in this industry, how can that be the consumer's problem?

If they want to solve the problem, all they have to do is to treat their consumers like what they are: consumers.  Not investors.  Not friends.  Not citizens.  Not representatives.  By serving the consumers, they save a lot more money, create a better game, and protect the integrity of the game.

Of course, that would imply that CCP starts acting like what they really are: producers.  Not corp members.  Not friends.  Not a government.  Not a boss.  By acting like producers, they save a lot more money, create a better game, and protect the integrirty of the game far better than this whole blurring of the distinctions between consumer, and producer.

But of course, they aren't willing to do what every P2P MMO service does for the sake of the game.  They want to interfere with the consumer's game, and force themselves on people who pay good money to be left alone to enjoy the game.  It's like buying a new pool table and having the salesman come home with you, bugging you to be their friend just so they can play pool with you.  At some point, you have to wonder who is trying to satisfy whom, and who should own the pool table.

You may be really good guys CCP, but why can't you just leave us alone to enjoy the things we pay to enjoy?

IMHO, you really nailed it.  There is a subsequent post about what another company did that I guess fits into your "acceptable standards" and it sounds reasonable, even necessary in a game like Eve.  Involvement by developers should be secret, limited, and monitored by the company.

I agree that they don't "get it."  It is obvious from every communication that they have made regarding these issues all year.

Other people have brought up the excellent point that any 'demoncratic' election will simply pick members of the biggest guilds like BoB who are the source of the PR problem.    Representatives selected from those big guilds will do NOTHING to lessen the rumors of favoritism, if anything they will fan them further.  

Originally posted by crazer1

CCP's main problem seems to be that they let their Devs play the game AS devs and make no effort to keep their employees from letting people know who they are. Instead of going to the extreme of flying people from all over the world to Iceland to audit the game, I would be more at ease seeing them post revised policies prohibiting their devs from having any direct contact with the live game while on the job. They should all have regular player accounts (which should be screened regulary) that can only be used outside the office and they should be prohibited from telling anyone in the game that they work for CCP.  I believe that most MMOs have something like this in place. I knew a dev from Mythic that was a member in my guild  in DAoC at the time, I didnt find out he was a dev until he resigned from the company and let a few of us know. He told us that he was under an NDA of sorts and that his game time outside work was logged. He told us about how they ran their dev tools and it seemed pretty clear that they set things up in a way that made it very difficult for a dev to do a "favor" for a friend and also made it very easy to catch any dev that tried.

Glad to see that other people have seen the real basis of the problem and how it can solved.    They can fly all the people they want out to Iceland but until they start acting like professionals and realize they are developers not players, they will continue to have problems.

Originally posted by Beatnik59

After all of this time, CCP just doesn't "get it"...

But of course, they aren't willing to do what every P2P MMO service does for the sake of the game.  They want to interfere with the consumer's game, and force themselves on people who pay good money to be left alone to enjoy the game.  It's like buying a new pool table and having the salesman come home with you, bugging you to be their friend just so they can play pool with you.  At some point, you have to wonder who is trying to satisfy whom, and who should own the pool table.

You may be really good guys CCP, but why can't you just leave us alone to enjoy the things we pay to enjoy?

Very well said.    This issue has come up in other MMORPGs as well, you'd think developers would have learned to take steps to avoid it like Mythic did with DOAC.
 

This is one of those "brilliant ideas" that sounds great in a marketing release but falls on it's face in reality.  Why, do you ask?  Allow me to outline but a few of the problems...

Popularity != competance.  The people being selected are being voted into the positions by the populace.  Well, as we all know, when a population votes someone into a position, they always have complete trust and confidence in him right?  And he's always the absolutely best person for the job, of course.  Just as in a beta test of a game, there are great testers, then there are awful ones.  If they elect a group of people who know next to nothing about what they are looking for, they will be useless.

Regularly scheduled audits?  Oh, THOSE will be useful.  I'm responsible for managing the external audits done on my group.  Do you know when my busiest time of year is?  The 2 weeks before the audit.  *IF* there is corruption in CCP, do you think these people will actually get to see it?  "Hmm, we've caught developer Jones playing the game and giving his corporation cash and designs.  Should we just fix it now, or wait and let the auditors see it?"  If they find something, I'd question it's validity, and if they find nothing, I'll question their competance.

Actual competance will not be allowed.  As I said above, I do audits.  So what would I do?  I'd demand a list of every player, the corporations their in, the memberships of those corporations, every developers account info, every character they have, every asset, and the logs of asset transfers to/from developers.  I'd want to see every transaction between any account a developer has access to an any other account.  I'd want to see all privileged access securit policies.  Who has the access and why?  Who can edit the logs and erase information?  I'd want to see a log of every priviledged access used by an account...a dev created an object?   Why?  Where did it go?  What was his justification for doing it?  You think they'd let me have that?  Do you think they'd let me, a lowly player, have access to all that info?  Not bloody likely.

Eve has soiled their messkit with how they handled all of this, and all that this will do is create more drama, which is what the Eve community thrives on.  Look at all the press this is getting them?  How many MMO's rate the NY Times?

As for how they should actually fix the problem, I echo many of the sentiments listed here.  Devs should never be given priv accounts on live servers.  When I was doing the original guide program in EQ, we were not allowed to have toons on the same server as our Guide accounts, and it was audited.  Because Eve has 1 world, that becomes harder, but in the end, there is absolutely no excuse for a dev to ever be able to execute privs in a live world without it setting off bells all over the bloody place.