exactly what, owned by ccp, did K "hack" into, which resulted in his being banned?

it CAN'T be for giving out personal information, sir molle did the same thing.  if that's the reason, then yes, ccp is corrupt, this incident definitely got the attention of even the top people at ccp.  so if this did happen, yes it's proof that they show incredible favoritism (hey, call K at work and get him fired, but no banning for sir molley wolley?), are hypocritical and publicly/unashamedly cheat.  that is corruption

it CAN'T be for doing anything to BoB boards, because ccp doesn't own those.  if that's the reason, then yes, ccp completely favors bob (especially coupled with the above statement) which again shows they're corrupt from the top to the bottom.  remember?  even arkanon said that staff shouldn't be power players, shouldn't be involved with an alliance that's dominating anything in eve.  please, keep defending the cheaters. oh wait, maybe K only ever gave information about bob?  um, but isn't that what he's known for?  for digging up information on all sorts of alliances?  time and time again? yet, at no other time that he obtained private information from any other alliance, did ccp have a problem with it.  why is that?   oh yeah, cheating, corruption, douche bags.l

it CAN'T be for blowing the whistle on t20 and ALL the cheating he did (forget about those stupid bpos for a minute -- account sharing for a titan pilot account + others).  oh wait, that idiot kieron did make a lot of threats to K about K exposing the corruption.  so yeah, this is definitely something that happened and does show the corruption from highest to lowest at ccp.


i want to be shown that ccp isn't full of cheaters, from top to bottom.

you can be naive and naively believe that everything t20 did, no one else in his office knew about.  everyone sitting in that office, playing the same game, comparing notes, doing things together, yet everything he did (poof assloads of t2 bpos, overseeing the titan pilot program at bob, whatever else) NO ONE sitting 5-10 feet from him had an INKLING about.  even if you believe that, before K exposed anything, ccp did an investigation, so yes, they knew everything he was doing.  all the things K said, included things t20 did AFTER the ccp investigation.  so, they caught a dev cheating and never paid attention to anything he did again?  yeah, believing this lie goes beyond naive and straight into fanboi retardation.


so please, educate me, on how ccp by doing ONLY the things i've mentioned here, aren't a rotten apple full of worms.

i also reserve the right to add up to a bazillion instances/quotes/urls to back up things i say, or to point out further proof of corruption and cover up.


so, proof or stfu.  because the few points i make at the top are fairly common knowledge and shouldn't even need cited references to be valid.

Well accordingly to mr. K he said he was banned because of 2 points.

1) naming SirMolle on the forums.

and

2) Costing CCP money.

To point 1 .. sure I do belive it should be a bannable offence but that ofcourse means some of BoB's leadership should be banned for it as well (SirMolle).

Some say that because Kuguts where not a paying customer of EVE-Online anylonger when SirMolle did name him that SirMolle did not break the EULA.
However I have several times shown that he infact did break the EULA by posting other information about someone but the ingame charactername and or e-mail.
SirMolle is bound by the EULA even that the person is NOT a customer of CCP (the one he talks about anyway).

To point 2 I say... Kuguts did not cost CCP money but the actions done by T20 did cost CCP money.
They also claim that they can't fire T20 or punish him twice... well I am sure they did punish T20 for the initial crime (spawning blueprints) however they did not punish T20 for costing the company money.
And that is infact the reasons why they could if they wanted to legally to fire him, because his action lead to CCP loosing some money (customers).

I think they claimed he broke the EULA, atleast that's the only legit reason you could have for banning a customer right? As to how he broke the EULA exactly I'm not certain, and since Sirmolle also broke the EULA but is still playing it pretty much says it all. He caught CCP with their pants down, they got angry and banned him. Sirmolle posted his personal details on the EVE forums was abusive and alledgedly abused him at his workplace, however he's still playing.

My favourite EVE feature became the cancel button as of last month.

Originally posted by Agricola1

I think they claimed he broke the EULA, atleast that's the only legit reason you could have for banning a customer right? As to how he broke the EULA exactly I'm not certain, and since Sirmolle also broke the EULA but is still playing it pretty much says it all. He caught CCP with their pants down, they got angry and banned him. Sirmolle posted his personal details on the EVE forums was abusive and alledgedly abused him at his workplace, however he's still playing.

My favourite EVE feature became the cancel button as of last month.

If yu actually read what Kug said on his bourds he does accept point 1.

 

If i remember correctly Kug displayed the part of the EULA that applied to what he did.

 

As to the Sir mole bit well when he did what he did Kug was banned so the EULA didnt cover him at least thats my interpretation of events.

To the op this topis is obviously spam as this aspect of things was hardly missed and you know it.

 

I would report you but someone has already it seems.

Reading the EULA I have actually come across two points where SirMolle did infact break the EULA on.

1)

"6.1 The Message Board service enables you to participate in chat forums on various game-related topics. You may also post a message on the Web Site’s bulletin board. You acknowledge and agree that if you submit any Content to forums, you will be solely responsible for such Content. CCP will not be liable in any way for any such Content submitted. You further agree that you will not:

 

• I Submit any Content, which is harassing, abusive, threatening, harmful, libelous or defamatory, encourages conduct that could constitute a criminal offense or give rise to civil liabilities, or is unlawful in any other way."

and...

2)

"6.7. When submitting any comments in any form to the Web Site, whether it be via chat services, bulletin board services, customer feedback email, or the like you, are solely responsible for the content of any comments you make. You agree that no comments submitted by you to the Web Site will:

 

• I violate any right of any third party, including but not limited to copyright, trademark, privacy, or other personal or proprietary rights;

   

• II be libelous or contain libelous or other otherwise unlawful, abusive, or obscene material, or constitute the misappropriation of trade secrets of any third party;

   

• III disparage the products or services of any third party; or

   

• IV contain any personal information (other than your email address or user name)."

 

See... SirMolle did infact break both points, 1  by posting real life information about Kuguts and that is harrasment, second he did infact post personal information (see 6.7 I and IV) other than SirMolle's email address or username.

It does not matter if Kuguts by the time was not a player of EVE-Online, SirMolle was still bound by the fact that he IS a paying customer of EVE-Online and it was SirMolle who did break the EULA here.
Kuguts got banned because of his break of the EULA, SirMolle did not...

Originally posted by JADEDRAG0N

To the op this topis is obviously spam as this aspect of things was hardly missed and you know it.

 

I would report you but someone has already it seems.

You sir have no idea why people keep bringing the incident up. 

It seems time after time that more and more scandals emerge, people need to be reminded of what CCP has done and is continually doing, but as of late they seem to do a better coverup job than with the t20 incident.  Now they just threaten lawsuits and coverups under a veiled judiciary threat. 

The community needs to know and be kept alerted of the happenings and corruption at CCP if the game is to improve and survive.  I won't ever go back to the game myself unless something drastic is done, and with their track record, I don't see it happening.

The OP is just like the rest of us, concerned about a great game that has been ruined by the worst corruption I have seen in online games since I started playing MUDs so long ago.

I just started playing EvE...and am enjoying it so far.  I don't really care about this controversy...I'm so far removed from it there's no impact on my gaming. 

But one day, it might.

So I support people's efforts to disseminate information, and calls to ban the OP here are way out of line.

There was nothing in the OP's post that warrants corrective action...you don't like.. don't read it.... pretty simple I'd say.

Originally posted by damian7

you can be naive and naively believe that everything t20 did, no one else in his office knew about.  everyone sitting in that office, playing the same game, comparing notes, doing things together, yet everything he did (poof assloads of t2 bpos, overseeing the titan pilot program at bob, whatever else) NO ONE sitting 5-10 feet from him had an INKLING about.

Minor correction:  It was exactly TEN BPO's only one of which had any real value:  The Sabre interdictor BPO, which, at best estimate, was worth about 2-3 billion isk and only if it produced non-stop over the course of time since he created it until the day it was taken out of the game.   To put that in perspective that BPO was worth 1 dread... 2 if they were poorly fitted.  Not saying what he did wasn't wrong.  It was.  I'm just saying stop over-exxagerating what happened.

So you're saying your co-workers would know if you downloaded a file to your system and didn't tell them or let them see you when you were doing it?  You're saying it's impossible to do a 2 click operation without someone noticing?  Please... get a grip on reality.  Sure it's possible they knew but it's just as possible, and far more likely, that they did not.

Also, don't ask for proof.  You know damn well that there is no way to prove a negative.

Even if you believe that, before K exposed anything, ccp did an investigation, so yes, they knew everything he was doing.  all the things K said, included things t20 did AFTER the ccp investigation.  so, they caught a dev cheating and never paid attention to anything he did again?  yeah, believing this lie goes beyond naive and straight into fanboi retardation.

T20 didn' tdo anything after the investigation.  When he was caught in July his account was DELETED.  POOF no more character in that corp.  He didn't continue to do anything.  CCP felt the matter was closed.  I dissagree with them on that.  they should have immediately removed all the T2 BPO's he'd illicitely created from the game, regardless of who had them.  They didn't do that till january/february when this was brought up by outside forces, however.   Shame on them for that but I don't see it as corruption so much as an error in judgement.

What exactly is it that you think he did after he was caught the first time?  Go re-read the blogs, evidence and other items that were brought into the discussion.  both by Kug and by CCP.  Nobody said T20 continued to do anything after he was originally caught LAST SUMMER.  The allegations were that CCP didn't do anything about it at the time and they didn't fire T20.  Not that he was continuing to do anything wrong.

so please, educate me, on how ccp by doing ONLY the things i've mentioned here, aren't a rotten apple full of worms.

Don't need to because what you are assuming is not true.  The situation was nothing like what you are trying to portray it as.  CCP did deal with the situation (granted inadequately) at the time.  As to how they dealt with Kug and Sirmolle?  I could really give a rip less.  Kug violated the EULA and got burned for it.  sirMolle did too and for whatever reason didn't.  And, frankly, I don't think he should have been.  Kug violated the EULA in an attempt to harm CCP while SirMolle did it in support of CCP.  CCP can ban anyone, at any time, for any reason.  Don't believe me?  Go read the EULA a few times till you get it.  So yeah... they COULD ban SirMolle... but that judgement call is up to them, not you.  Is it a corrupt decision not to?  No because SirMolle didn't do anything to hurt the game while it's Kug's clearly stated objective to hurt EVE as much as possible.

i also reserve the right to add up to a bazillion instances/quotes/urls to back up things i say, or to point out further proof of corruption and cover up.

It's ok, we know you don't like EVE and any and all comments will be taken in that light.  I like EVE.  I don't like how the T20 incident was handled and I'm still not sure I like how the questions re: BoB being able to IM CCP Devs were answered but I don't see anything currently which indicates any sign of corruption or anything like that.  Bottom line:  CCP will be hurt FAR MORE by BoB winning the game than if BoB suddenly vanished from the game.  If BoB succeeds at conquering all of 0.0 as they wish to the game will lose players.  That's just a simple fact.  Because all it will do is prove that newer players have no chance at competing in the game.  It's just that simple.  So why would CCP cheat or aid BOB in any way deliberately, as a company?  They'd be harming their own profit margins.

No, I see a couple separate instances, one of a developer who has poor moral compass and should have been fired but was mis-handled and another of a company who should answer questions more clearly and not omit sections of the question from their answer.   But corruption?  No sorry... not today...

so, proof or stfu.  because the few points i make at the top are fairly common knowledge and shouldn't even need cited references to be valid.

How bout yourself?  Prove the company is corrupt or STFU.  Citing a few incidents of poor communication and over-stating the issue around the ONE issue of corruption by ONE member of CCP is NOT proof that CCP is corrupt.  It is proof that they had a corrupt employee and handled the situation very badly though.  But corrupt?  Nah...

Just the fact that Dev's play in player corps would lend any reasonable person to conclude things arent fair to for the Devless corps. I made a post in the Solution thread about why i feel this way.No one has challenged my post in the solution thread, why? Probably because its the truth.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/132029/page/1

Telling someone they can't play a game just because they're employed by the company who makes the game is wrong.  Sorry bout that bro.  Hate to break this to you but devs of EVERY MMO in existance are allowed, even encouraged, to play the games they support/design. 

Been true since the creation of the gaming industry.  In the "online world" it was a practice even back when it was just MU*S, don't ever see it changing.  Yes it makes it possible for a dev to cheat but it's a risk most companies are willing to make because an employee who loves the game they are working on is more likely to produce quality work in support of that game.  It's just simple logic.  Also, if the employees are going through the same trials and tribulations as the players then they are more likely to have a better understanding of what parts of the game are too frustrating/difficult and need tweaking as well as what parts are too easy/unchallenging so that they can fix those too.

It is what it is.  Live in reality.  It's a mostly free country.  An employer cannot tell their employees what to do in their spare time.

Originally posted by Taram
Telling someone they can't play a game just because they're employed by the company who makes the game is wrong.  Sorry bout that bro.  Hate to break this to you but devs of EVERY MMO in existance are allowed, even encouraged, to play the games they support/design. 

Been true since the creation of the gaming industry.  In the "online world" it was a practice even back when it was just MU*S, don't ever see it changing.  Yes it makes it possible for a dev to cheat but it's a risk most companies are willing to make because an employee who loves the game they are working on is more likely to produce quality work in support of that game.  It's just simple logic.  Also, if the employees are going through the same trials and tribulations as the players then they are more likely to have a better understanding of what parts of the game are too frustrating/difficult and need tweaking as well as what parts are too easy/unchallenging so that they can fix those too.

It is what it is.  Live in reality.  It's a mostly free country.  An employer cannot tell their employees what to do in their spare time.

 I beg to differ not all MMO games let their developers gang up join the most powerfull alliances in the game and conquer paying customers the way CCP does. Its very unprofessional. Dev's have the test server and are welcome to fly around EVE in official Dev acounts. They dont need to be in player corps.

Also a employer can make a contract with their employee limiting what they can do in their private life. It happens all the time. Essntialy the devs are moonlighting as players.Perhaps worse then moonlighting since it seems to be condoned by upper management. Its a conflict of intrest anyone who has any real world buisness sence could understand this. How would you like to be running factories where the state inspectores where working for your competiton. Sounds kinda dirty just saying it. Devs are in god mode on games, they need to be nuetral in a game environment.

Originally posted by coldfire1234

I beg to differ not all MMO games let their developers gang up join the most powerfull alliances in the game and conquer paying customers the way CCP does. Its very unprofessional. Dev's have the test server and are welcome to fly around EVE in official Dev acounts. They dont need to be in player corps.

Name one

Just one... please

Also a employer can make a contract with their employee limiting what they can do in their private life. It happens all the time. Essntialy the devs are moonlighting as players.Perhaps worse then moonlighting since it seems to be condoned by upper management. Its a conflict of intrest anyone who has any real world buisness sence could understand this. How would you like to be running factories where the state inspectores where working for your competiton. Sounds kinda dirty just saying it. Devs are in god mode on games, they need to be nuetral in a game environment.

Sure they can.  And guess what:  They won't get the best devs in the business if they do.  Which means the quality of their game will suffer (which it will anyway since the devs will be totally dissasociated with the game.

You can require people to sign contracts all you want.  In the end it doesn't matter.  The company will have no realistic way of knowing if an employee is playing from home or from a friend's home.  Using game time codes or whatever they could completely bypass the company's ability to tell whether they were playing or not.  Bottom line:  If someone is going to be corrupt having them sign a silly piece of paper saying they won't play the game in their free time isn't going to stop them.  It's a lame and silly arguement.

Hell... in today's society even having a top secret security clearance doesn't keep people from blabbing confidential and secret information to the press "under conditions of anonymity".

So please... tell me again how making an employee sign a contract not to play a game in their free time is going to stop them from doing it?  Please?

Ok Taram Knight Online doesnt let their devs   play in clans on their servers. When a dev comes on hes on a official game account. IM sure their are many others that have similar polliceys. We are all used to a Dev comming on here and their in games and just blowing the crap out of people for fun. But this is EVE ships are worth hundreds and thousands of dollars. The devs in eve are deeply imbeded into player corps and alliances. Engaging in plots to controle the EVE universe. So i say yes devs must get out of player corps.

As far as employee's  signing a contract stateing that they wont engage in certain activitys companies do it all the time. Sure if a crooked dev wants to take bribes or cheat he will try. But CCP would be in the right to fire them. The way it stands right now they seem to have the backing of CCP to be in player corps as long as no attention is drawn to them{ meaning they dont get caught red handed again}.

Does having devs in player corps make EVE better? Hell no, it makes it worse. Can a dev do his job without being in player corps ? Yes, they just got to be active, read their forums, use the test server and run around EVE in official EVE dev accounts.

Their seem to be alot of players and possibly CCP that dont want the old rulers in EVE to change. A freind of mine once called EVE a third world game. Meaning its never realy gunna be as big as some of the top MMO's out their. If EVE wants to grow then they have to learn to represent evreyone in EVE equally. Perhaps the devs and their freinds are just making to much money with their accounts and things will never change. But one can hope

In most MMOs a DEV will be in game in more of a customer service capacity, his/her char is distinctly marked from others as a GM/DEV and he/she is there to help the playerbase as a whole. In EVE the DEVs are disguised as players, playing to help the alliance they're in and further their ambitions. This doesn't help 99% of the playerbase as a DEV/GM is only accessable through petitions, whereas if they're in your alliance commanding your alliance fleet or POS or mining ops your sub is going further than mine.

If you think that's fair then fine, but I and many others don't relish the prospect of paying the same sub as everyone else only to be PWNED by the EVE DEVs and their friends. I'm not paying EVE DEVs money every month so that they can be entertained, I pay money every month so that they entertain me. CCP however has a much different point of view.

I have to side with the OP here so long as favorable threads can be created to play down the whole set of circumstances, then threads which bring it back to the forefront are euqally as valid. Perhaps we should all start reporting each others threads for some arbitrary reason from now on when the topic isn't to our liking.

You don't like Damian7's opinion on the entire unfair manner in which CCP handles itself fine then be grown up enough to have a civil arguement about it instead of running off to your parents(Forum Moderators) to try and get the thread locked or deleted.

Originally posted by Arcticblue

Reading the EULA I have actually come across two points where SirMolle did infact break the EULA on.

1)

"6.1 The Message Board service enables you to participate in chat forums on various game-related topics. You may also post a message on the Web Site’s bulletin board. You acknowledge and agree that if you submit any Content to forums, you will be solely responsible for such Content. CCP will not be liable in any way for any such Content submitted. You further agree that you will not:

 

• I Submit any Content, which is harassing, abusive, threatening, harmful, libelous or defamatory, encourages conduct that could constitute a criminal offense or give rise to civil liabilities, or is unlawful in any other way."

and...

2)

"6.7. When submitting any comments in any form to the Web Site, whether it be via chat services, bulletin board services, customer feedback email, or the like you, are solely responsible for the content of any comments you make. You agree that no comments submitted by you to the Web Site will:

 

• I violate any right of any third party, including but not limited to copyright, trademark, privacy, or other personal or proprietary rights;

   

• II be libelous or contain libelous or other otherwise unlawful, abusive, or obscene material, or constitute the misappropriation of trade secrets of any third party;

   

• III disparage the products or services of any third party; or

   

• IV contain any personal information (other than your email address or user name)."

 

See... SirMolle did infact break both points, 1  by posting real life information about Kuguts and that is harrasment, second he did infact post personal information (see 6.7 I and IV) other than SirMolle's email address or username.

It does not matter if Kuguts by the time was not a player of EVE-Online, SirMolle was still bound by the fact that he IS a paying customer of EVE-Online and it was SirMolle who did break the EULA here.
Kuguts got banned because of his break of the EULA, SirMolle did not...

Ahh i see thank for the quote of the EULA i can see now what you are on about. I still think the right action was taken tho as Kug was trying to hurt EvE and the other guy was defending eve in a stupid way. In the end i dont really care about this as i am having a lot of fun with eve despite these exaduated rumours people here bandy about.

True that Kuguts ban was right, but still that does also mean that SirMolle did was also wrong and he definitly did not try to defend EVE, but hurt Kuguts that was his goal.
They tried to get him fired and have people all over to call his boss and get him fired.

So SirMolle should definitly also be banned...