Originally posted by Amathe

Originally posted by Agent_X7
I'm not defending them, merely questioning your need to keep posting on the subject. Do you really need to start multiple threads calling it vaporware? You've already stated your opinion on this subject, why do you feel the need to keep saying the same thing over and over?

I will assume that since you asked me these questions, you wish for me to respond.

I did not start this thread. So some of your questions perhaps should be directed to the original poster? I responded here to a point made by yet another poster - the notion that delay in a game's production equates to some hightened degree of care in that game's creation. I voiced my opinion on that in general, and particularly as to HJ. If you feel this thread is duplicative of others, just lock it. I don't care. I didn't create it. But since it has been here for weeks ostensibly with your blessing I felt it was ok to add my voice to the others. Why only now, when I post, is this thread that I did not start an issue?

If you look, you will see that I have only started three threads in this forum in the last year. One was about HJ being confused with another game with a similar title. One was the post where I argued this game is vaporware. And one was to ask if it had or should have a new release date. I would hardly call that spamming.

My more recent post which you locked was not about HJ being vaporware, and your suggestion to the contrary is untrue. That post was about the accuracy or inaccuracy of the published target for release on the HJ website, and whether that date has been changed or should be changed. That is a different issue because if, as I contended in a different thread, this game is vaporware, it will never have a release date. The reason I asked is because if as some people contend this game is legit, then perhaps it should have at least a new target release date? So I asked what it was. I never once referred to "vaporware" or anything of the sort in that thread.

Let's be honest here. You want warm fuzzy Simu friendly threads in this forum, for whatever reason, and mine are different. Your singling me out for name calling and thread locking is an abuse of your position. Nothing I can do about that. But just because you have a lock button doesn't make you right, and doesn't alter one iota the issues I raise or the points I make. Can you respond substantively? Do you have an opinion? If so, I would love to see you move away from criticisms of me and actually have something to add to the discussions beyond name calling and little cartoons?

Firstly, I am a writer here. I have no forum abilites beyond what you have. I did not lock that thread.

Secondly, your recent post reads like an attempt to call the game vaporware again. Let it go. I don't care if you want to spend all day here calling HJ vaporware, but it sure makes you sound like a troll rather than a constructive poster. I merely posted my opinion, apparently to the chagrin of our overzealous forum mods, who deleted my posts, sent me a warning, and locked the thread. I have read your threads, as I posted before, and they come across as thinly veiled attempts to get a reaction from fans of games you don't like. I'm sorry if my cartoon deeply offended you, but if it did, perhaps the internet is not the place for you to be hanging out. It's rarely so friendly.

 Ah, I see, the old throw out a bone and beat the dog when he grabs it strategy. Very well, I am done playing your game. Have fun.

One of the things I try to do when I post (which the forum rules encourage) is to stay at least in the general vicinity of the thread topic. This thread (which I did not start) is about the vaporware issue. So yes, in this thread I included a discussion of that issue and related issues in my post. If you don't want to read about that topic, why not read some other thread? Or start a thread on some HJ issue of interest to you? I don't go around talking about the vaporware issue in threads that have nothing to do with that.

What this thread is not about, and that only you have tried to hijack the thread and make it about, is your personal opinions of my posting habits or about me, which quite frankly I could give a damn about. But if you think that topic will bear scrutiny from the forum moderators, go ahead and start an "Amathe is a troll" thread and see how far that goes? In the meantime, I will continue posting my opinions on the issues raised in threads in this forum. If that is a problem for you, perhaps you should take your own suggestion and revisit whether internet posting boards are for you.

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Originally posted by Amathe
Whether you agree or disagree with me, and whether my views are expressed or are suppressed, the market stands ready to pass judgment on this game, and the market is much less tolerant or forgiving than I am.

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Well Vanguard sold 200,000 copies of a buggy unpolished game so obviously you can put whatever you like on the shelves and someone will still buy it.

And until they release a game - no-one is being hurt by it. So I for one dont see why you have such an issue with the fact that the game wont be out this year and there isnt much news about it.

Its not like they are asking people for money so they can develop the game. Or asking people to buy the game and pay a monthly subscription so they can finish the game.

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I would be comfortable thinking that to, were it not for recognizing that this game, pure and simple, is a demo for a proprietary engine and I don't like being misled or seeing other people misled

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Well thats your opinion. But on the other side of the fence we could argue that you are trying to mislead people into believing this is just a demo for a game engine.

Well whenever you see Simu at a developers conference, they have Hero's Engine editing a live version of Hero's Journey on the fly... Technically that would be a demo of Hero's Engine.

However, they came up with the idea of a new MMO-type game, and were long into development before they realized they needed to make thier own engine to do it with the scope of features they wanted.

Hero's Journey will release. It will not be simply a demo of their Engine. They are making enough money from selling the engine now to hire on enough people to work on both. It's good for everybody. Before they sold the engine I'm sure they would just change/add/remove the code they currently needed to complete the next phase of the game. However, now they are selling an eingine that is not finished - that's not very good.

Currently they need to sell the engine, this gives them the money to FINISH the engine. But it also gives them extra money to finish the game. Without the game, the engine won't sell, and without the engine the game can't exist. Lets call a spade a spade here. Hero's Journey has become a side project. But I wouldn't call it vaporware, and I wouldn't call it just a demo. The people working on this thing are passonate, and dedicated. They will complete it or making the engine was all for naught. I stick by my August 2008 prediction.

What would YOU do if you were simutronics?

Originally posted by Valendros

What would YOU do if you were simutronics?

What I would do travels on an assumption, and that assumption comes from some things Simu has said.

One of the things that is supposed to be great about the Hero Engine is how easy it makes it to add content to the game. So easy, in fact, that one thing HJ is supposed to offer, which almost no other company can do, is to allow game masters to create dynamic content or events rapidly, or even on the fly. Contrast that with the many weeks or months of laborious coding it takes other companies to get new content into their games.

So if I were Simu, possessed of such impressive new game making tools that streamline so many things, I would use them to finish the game on a reasonable timetable? Or any timetable?

What I do not understand, and perhaps someone can explain this to me, is if the Hero Engine is what it is held out to be, why, armed with it, is this game not progressing faster than game makers forced to rely on conventional engines?

Originally posted by Valendros

Hero's Journey will release. It will not be simply a demo of their Engine. They are making enough money from selling the engine now to hire on enough people to work on both. It's good for everybody. Before they sold the engine I'm sure they would just change/add/remove the code they currently needed to complete the next phase of the game. However, now they are selling an eingine that is not finished - that's not very good.

 What would YOU do if you were simutronics?

Unfortunately Simutronics does not hire that many people and instead relies on volunteers, so unless they actually do invest money to hire workers, not volunteers, then the production will move right along.

In the end, I think HJ will be just another simu niche game for which  people are willing to pay premium prices, making tons of money for simutronics ceo and maybe they will give a pizza party for the poor  volunteers who did all the work.. 

Originally posted by HJ-Diviana
First off, who said the engine isn't finished? It's kinda like our games, they work (and could be considered complete), but they're constantly being updated with new content.

And secondly: Yes, we can add things to the game very quickly and easily. That doesn't mean we just -do- that. Before anything goes in, it has to fit with the world, it has to be designed properly, it has to meet standards.

We're not just throwing a half made game out there. That's been done before and we've seen the consequences. Hero's Journey will probably have very few bugs when it is released, all systems should work, and it will be ready as a fun work of art (that's really what it is, gorgeous I tell you!).


There are reasons we're taking our time.

I never said the engine isn't finished, and if someone else did, I missed it.

Yes, we have seen the results when a half finished product is released by other gamemakers.

We have also seen the results when gamemakers fail to manage expectations, make boastful promises, fail to set and meet benchmarks, fail to have a release date, spend too much time trying to make one aspect of the game perfect and then have to rush the remainder out of financial constraint, delay until the market passes them by or the competition becomes overwhelming, fail to adequately finance and staff the project, make statements about their game that they can't deliver on, conceal dubious business practices and management behind a smokescreen of being "artists" and "visionaries", trade on their reputation until that capital is spent and devalued, and dig themselves into a hole that ultimately causes the failure of the game or a firesale of it to another company. We have seen all that too (very recently, in fact), and we have seen each and every game on the mmorpg list whose product has been in production well past the industry standard claim it is because their game is special.

But I believe you missed my main point. If the Hero Engine is such a godsend, why isn't it enabling you to make better progress on the game?

Originally posted by HJ-Diviana
First off, who said the engine isn't finished?

Who said it WAS finished? I haven't heard anything about it. All I see is somebody buys the engine, then HJ info that was once flowing easily from the tongues of Melissa and various other GMs and product designers stops dead in it's tracks.

What that says to me is you weren't ready for somebody to purchase your engine, so work on HJ stops dead and everybody works on the engine (except the volunteer staff that may not have the ability to work on it - they probably kept adding areas and quests using the work in progress engine).

We, the consumer, aren't as dumb as you might think. We notice things. We see when the offical data just stops flowing, and everybodies anus seems to snap shut. We didn't get a notice when you stopped (or slowed) production on the game.

We didn't get a memo 8 months later reading: "Ok guys, the engine is ready for sale...  Here is our new business plan - we currently have 20 people on the engine side of things, keeping it up to date, giving extra features, etc and they will stay until the end of time. The rest of our 120 person staff, plus all the 300 volunteers are working on world building, quest/story building, character modeling, spell modeling, etc. All the teams are in place and we're back working full steam on the game you all want to enjoy"

We don't get staff meetings, we aren't called into the conference calls. All we know is what you tell us, and if you tell us nothing we will assume the worst every single time. All we see is the screenshots stopped, the weekly faq sessions stopped at every web site... Honestly, what would appease this populous is a REALISTIC timeframe, and a weekly screenshot. That's all we want.

Originally posted by Valendros

Originally posted by HJ-Diviana
First off, who said the engine isn't finished?

Who said it WAS finished? I haven't heard anything about it. All I see is somebody buys the engine, then HJ info that was once flowing easily from the tongues of Melissa and various other GMs and product designers stops dead in it's tracks.

...

We don't get staff meetings, we aren't called into the conference calls. All we know is what you tell us, and if you tell us nothing we will assume the worst every single time. All we see is the screenshots stopped, the weekly faq sessions stopped at every web site... Honestly, what would appease this populous is a REALISTIC timeframe, and a weekly screenshot. That's all we want.

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Originally posted by Amathe

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Originally posted by HJ-Diviana
First off, who said the engine isn't finished? It's kinda like our games, they work (and could be considered complete), but they're constantly being updated with new content.

And secondly: Yes, we can add things to the game very quickly and easily. That doesn't mean we just -do- that. Before anything goes in, it has to fit with the world, it has to be designed properly, it has to meet standards.

We're not just throwing a half made game out there. That's been done before and we've seen the consequences. Hero's Journey will probably have very few bugs when it is released, all systems should work, and it will be ready as a fun work of art (that's really what it is, gorgeous I tell you!).

There are reasons we're taking our time.

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I never said the engine isn't finished, and if someone else did, I missed it.
Yes, we have seen the results when a half finished product is released by other gamemakers.
We have also seen the results when gamemakers fail to manage expectations, make boastful promises, fail to set and meet benchmarks, fail to have a release date, spend too much time trying to make one aspect of the game perfect and then have to rush the remainder out of financial constraint, delay until the market passes them by or the competition becomes overwhelming, fail to adequately finance and staff the project, make statements about their game that they can't deliver on, conceal dubious business practices and management behind a smokescreen of being "artists" and "visionaries", trade on their reputation until that capital is spent and devalued, and dig themselves into a hole that ultimately causes the failure of the game or a firesale of it to another company. We have seen all that too (very recently, in fact), and we have seen each and every game on the mmorpg list whose product has been in production well past the industry standard claim it is because their game is special.
But I believe you missed my main point. If the Hero Engine is such a godsend, why isn't it enabling you to make better progress on the game?

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Amathe,

Is it your belief that the game engine writes the story line of the game? Why is it that you think you know what and where the bottle necks are in their development process?

Lets apply a little logic here. Currently on the HJ site they have a post requesting applications for WRITERS, not world builders. So what does this possible point to? I think it's quite plausible that the authoring of content for HJ can't seem to keep up with the builders implementing said content. If this is true, it does indeed validate Simus claims about the HJ Engine being a rapid development environment.

Further, perhaps not in response to your post, Amathe, I have to ask the basic question. Why in the world would they be trying to hire content authors if the game implementation is simply a demo to sell the HJ engine? You simply don't need to put that much into demos to sell products. In fact, trying to sell products based on feature demos is a poor sales tactic.

Vaporware, not vaporware ... who cares! Either will have no bearing on my life. I just don't understand how anyone with any sort of business sense would come to the conclusions that some of you have reached. Trying to hire writers just doesn't jive with your claims. Unless of course, the posting for writers is simply some sort of trick. But that in it self just seems dumb.

And before someone else runs off the deep end about Simu NOT hiring, you might want to actually take a look at their website. http://www.play.net/corporate/job-desc.asp

Jonny.

I made a new character in GS today just to mess around and found this pretty interesting... Coming Soon! Savant (Coming in 2004)

Originally posted by HJ-DEZORIN 
If it were up to me, I'd have made everyone several movies and compilations now, but it is not up to me.

Originally posted by Amathe

So if I were Simu, possessed of such impressive new game making tools that streamline so many things, I would use them to finish the game on a reasonable timetable? Or any timetable?

What I do not understand, and perhaps someone can explain this to me, is if the Hero Engine is what it is held out to be, why, armed with it, is this game not progressing faster than game makers forced to rely on conventional engines?

 

When Simu started their online gaming, they had a text based game which was a conversion of the rolemaster games rules and gameworld.  It was incredibly detailed with history and had a better depth than any other game out there.  They lost the license to rolemaster and redid the game, without paying as much attention to the histories and fabric of the game itself, and for quite a long time the game world suffered because of that.  When they 'De-Iced' there was an alarming lack of good historical stories, and the players complained for quite a while.

Then they went on the web, and the players there never knew what they had missed.  In the course of maybe three months the user base went from what would be considered a small town to a large city, and the players for various reasons weren't all that interested at first in the stories.  They just wanted to understand how to play. 

It took literally years to create that history that they lost, and help the players understand that it was in fact something to lean on when roleplaying in the system.  When I stopped playing etc..  They had finished up what was a very fine job of detailing the past histories, and creating stories, some by running huge world changing quests and including the players. 

I am hoping the following:

1) The engine is in fact easy to create instances, where GMs can get creative and run their own mini quests.

2) The land histories and storyllines will be deep and colorful, like reading a good novel versus a comic strip.

3) The player classes will be unique, and each have their own plusses and minuses to deal with.

Take care,

PinTBC

Originally posted by Isane
Jonny Amathe just wants a Beta slot and is using a bit of trashing anti-phsycology. "If I slag them off enough they will offer me a slot to shut me up". I just hope it never happens some people don't deserve to play what is a wonderful game.