Originally posted by jor8888

Why would it be MS fault?  Would u continue to fund someone who cant manage for crap with half of workers not doing anything but collecting paychecks?

That sentiment seems to be a common theme.

Let's put this into a bit of perspective here.

Blizzard used 80 mil and what, 4 years?

In that equivilent time, Sigil, building a vastly larger world, with more features had less then half that budget.  Ones again money appears as an underlying problem.  Look at what they did with just 30 mil. 

Do people really think that a game considerabley larger then WoW with more features should have been good to go with less then half the budget?  Not to mention, none of us knows what was going on while they were at MS, and I would have to lean more towards what Mcquaid had to say then a pissed off guy that just lost his job, with no real knowledge of what upper management is doing. 

30 mil, give me a break.  If MS wanted to see more results they should have allocated more funding in that amount of time.  What was one of the things the angry coder said?  They had no developement tools?  Hmm, I wonder if Sigil couldn't afford it on the budget they were given. 

Edit:  Oh, I didn't say it was all MS's fault, just that they weren't faultless.

Originally posted by Cymdai
Would you give 30 million to say, me, if I said I could build you a great game?

It's like I said before, Sigil hadn't established themselves. Were I in MS's shoes, I would not have given them more than 30 million either.

I can understand that.

To me though, it seemed like MS wasn't even looking at what they had.  Consider how the game was released and then consider that MS wanted the game out the door in July of '06.  Come on, someone at MS had to look at it and, yeah, umm, no way this will be ready.

MS knew what they were getting into.  Independant company aside, MS stuck with them for how many years, and through most of their time together they though they could compete against a game that cost 80 mil to produce, and on less then half the budget? 

I just can't see any way of looking at that and thinking, dang, that's stupid.  MS should've been smarter then that.

Dedicating assets to something and then deciding later down the line that maybe you don't want to do this is just bad management on both sides of the fence.  MS for not seeing it through, and Sigil for not ensuring that they keep MS attention till the end.

1. Free yourself

2. 3rd gen mmorpg

3. Brad's vision

all lies.

Originally posted by Urdig

Originally posted by Cymdai
Would you give 30 million to say, me, if I said I could build you a great game?

It's like I said before, Sigil hadn't established themselves. Were I in MS's shoes, I would not have given them more than 30 million either.

I can understand that.

To me though, it seemed like MS wasn't even looking at what they had.  Consider how the game was released and then consider that MS wanted the game out the door in July of '06.  Come on, someone at MS had to look at it and, yeah, umm, no way this will be ready.

MS knew what they were getting into.  Independant company aside, MS stuck with them for how many years, and through most of their time together they though they could compete against a game that cost 80 mil to produce, and on less then half the budget? 

I just can't see any way of looking at that and thinking, dang, that's stupid.  MS should've been smarter then that.

Dedicating assets to something and then deciding later down the line that maybe you don't want to do this is just bad management on both sides of the fence.  MS for not seeing it through, and Sigil for not ensuring that they keep MS attention till the end.

Every game company does that, there's dozens and dozens of game companies that start building, get investors start spending money, start dedicating assets to things, and then when a milestone hits and its missed and repeatedly missed or repeatedly fails to please investors someone has to eventually cut the ties.

Vanguard wasn't mismanaged by Microsoft, they're severly stringent there, they have a realistic view on whats going to make it and whats not.  The vanguard team was made up of industry veterans but their managers, their 'big wigs' as to say were NOT management types.  Brad failed he was in control but he's an artist a designer he needed someone to manage and to lead.

Im not a microsoft fan but the companies that have put out games for them are excellent.  Sigil just wasnt' up to par.  Infact this is what the 3rd or 4th attempt at an MMO break out by Microsoft that they've cut off (they cut off several xbox mmo titles for similiar or unknown reasons not to mention the mess up with AC 2)

Microsoft has the money to spend, they blue several millions on a game purely based on the fact its was being designed by Brad.  Names can be really important high up on the ladder.  Like everyone worshiping George Lucas then he fed us some Jar Jar Binks bullshit.  Sometimes what made the name famous screws the name over in the end.

Originally posted by elvenangel

Originally posted by Urdig

Originally posted by Cymdai
Would you give 30 million to say, me, if I said I could build you a great game?

It's like I said before, Sigil hadn't established themselves. Were I in MS's shoes, I would not have given them more than 30 million either.

I can understand that.

To me though, it seemed like MS wasn't even looking at what they had.  Consider how the game was released and then consider that MS wanted the game out the door in July of '06.  Come on, someone at MS had to look at it and, yeah, umm, no way this will be ready.

MS knew what they were getting into.  Independant company aside, MS stuck with them for how many years, and through most of their time together they though they could compete against a game that cost 80 mil to produce, and on less then half the budget? 

I just can't see any way of looking at that and thinking, dang, that's stupid.  MS should've been smarter then that.

Dedicating assets to something and then deciding later down the line that maybe you don't want to do this is just bad management on both sides of the fence.  MS for not seeing it through, and Sigil for not ensuring that they keep MS attention till the end.

Every game company does that, there's dozens and dozens of game companies that start building, get investors start spending money, start dedicating assets to things, and then when a milestone hits and its missed and repeatedly missed or repeatedly fails to please investors someone has to eventually cut the ties.

Vanguard wasn't mismanaged by Microsoft, they're severly stringent there, they have a realistic view on whats going to make it and whats not.  The vanguard team was made up of industry veterans but their managers, their 'big wigs' as to say were NOT management types.  Brad failed he was in control but he's an artist a designer he needed someone to manage and to lead.

Im not a microsoft fan but the companies that have put out games for them are excellent.  Sigil just wasnt' up to par.  Infact this is what the 3rd or 4th attempt at an MMO break out by Microsoft that they've cut off (they cut off several xbox mmo titles for similiar or unknown reasons not to mention the mess up with AC 2)

Microsoft has the money to spend, they blue several millions on a game purely based on the fact its was being designed by Brad.  Names can be really important high up on the ladder.  Like everyone worshiping George Lucas then he fed us some Jar Jar Binks bullshit.  Sometimes what made the name famous screws the name over in the end.

But most of the time it's the financers that cut the tie if milestones are consistantly missed.  MS didn't sever ther ties with Sigil though.  Everything I've read was more along the lines of Sigil decided to leave, or it was mutual.  That can say a lot when a company invests 30 mil into something and doesn't make a stink about thier investment walking.  Most companies don't just drop 30 mil either.

My opinion is that Sigil wasn't being properly funded and management made a bad move to go some place else.  This causes the man in charge to have to seek other finances, drawing him away from the office.  He puts people in charge that aren't living up to thier roles, and all the while the company is going further and further into dept.

People seem to forget that Sigil DID build something with the 30 mil, and I don't care what some anonymous interview says, you don't build a world like VG in the last 15 months.  No sir, not happening.  Work WAS being done, and the game sitting on shelves is proof that Sigil DID do something with the 30 mil that was given.

Flip thing up a little bit.  WoW took 80 mil and about the same time to make.  Think they would have been as well off working with just 30 mil.?  I don't. 

Personally, to me, it sounds like Sigil was underfunded.  An underfunded company is going to move much slower then one that is funder correctly. 

Honestly now, 30 mil is a joke for the scope of this game.  Why are they expected to build possibly the largest MMO to date, with some pretty sick technology for just 30 mil.  While a game like WoW takes 80.  I'm suprised people aren't seeing a problem with that. 

WoW=80 mil
VG=30 mil

Obviousely VG required a lot more money to be done right. 

MS will aslo be getting thier 5th shot as they'll be working with the guys from Cryptic Studios to produce the Marvel online game.  Be interesting to see how they treat Cryptic.

Originally posted by Amathe
Another point is this. If you have a vision of a game so grand in scope that it would cost more than 80 million to make, and you know from the beginning you only have $30 million to spend from your investor, you don't blame the investor! You either get a different investor from the beginning who can supply the needed funds, or failing that  you adjust your vision to fit your budget. Sigil did neither.

I think that people just believed, and no one person knew exactly how difficult neigh impossible their task was. They did amazing things on what budget they had though. Chalk that up to the human spirit.

 I seriously can't wait till September when I get my new video card and am actually able to play again though. Any predictions on what the game will be like after summer?

If they make an expansion before fixing the existing game then I'll be out on the Anti-SOE picket lines along with Shayde.

Originally posted by tornicade
why cant people post in the 15 other where vanguard messed up threads

Originally posted by anarchyart

Originally posted by Amathe
Another point is this. If you have a vision of a game so grand in scope that it would cost more than 80 million to make, and you know from the beginning you only have $30 million to spend from your investor, you don't blame the investor! You either get a different investor from the beginning who can supply the needed funds, or failing that  you adjust your vision to fit your budget. Sigil did neither.

I think that people just believed, and no one person knew exactly how difficult neigh impossible their task was. They did amazing things on what budget they had though. Chalk that up to the human spirit.

 I seriously can't wait till September when I get my new video card and am actually able to play again though. Any predictions on what the game will be like after summer?

If they make an expansion before fixing the existing game then I'll be out on the Anti-SOE picket lines along with Shayde.

There will be an expansion out before Christmass, you can bet your new GPU on that mate. SOE are pretty easy to predict when it comes to pulling crap like this. They tell you what you want to hear, listen to your suggestions then do exactly what they were going to do in the first place!

I'm sure the new expansion will be disguised as a re-launch, some kind of stealth action pack. Any decent content will be getting held back for this expansion/action pack, so your probably only gonna be getting nerfs and rebalances until it gets released. How do I know this? It's a bit like when I said SOE was in charge of VG and will buy it out last year, and the fact that MS dumped it was a sign it wasn't 3rd gen or the next greatest MMO. I was called a hater and told Brad decided to leave and he picked SOE from the queue of MMO companys begging for him to sign a contract.

Well I'm telling you this now because this is how SOE does business, don't believe me? You will baby, then you can make excuses for Smed instead of Brad.

Originally posted by Agricola1

There will be [such certainity]

you can bet [I will not bet on your theories, assumptions]

pretty easy to predict [I need not comment]

They tell you [such assuredness, telling us what SOE will tell us in the future]

then do exactly [more certainty? what are today's lottery numbers going to be?]

I'm sure  [I believe you are sure of yourself]

so your [sic] probably [you're now predicting about us, the reader - goodness]

How do I know this? [you know nothing, really]

Well I'm telling you this now [you told us nothing, really]

don't believe me? You will baby [I cannot think of what to say here. LOL. narcissist]

Originally posted by healz4u

I am not going to hide-the-ball, you do it because your PC will not run Vanguard, you have realized you are low-class and cannot afford a new PC,

Originally posted by healz4u

You do realize you know nothing?


I currently play the game (yesterday, today, and tomorrow) and I am perplexed why you keep trying to "predict" all of these things.

I am not going to hide-the-ball, you do it because your PC will not run Vanguard, you have realized you are low-class and cannot afford a new PC, and this makes you very angry.  It is catharsis for you to vent that low-class angst on web pages.  You feel like you are getting back at society, your parents, and corporations (SOE). You will continue to do this, as you have for months (years?).  Is my "prediction" worth anything? Not a dime.  Is yours?


EDIT:  To help you, I am demonstrating how unduly assured of your "predictions" you are and how unduly assured of I would be in making a "prediction" about you. 

Originally posted by healz4u
You missed the point (feigns Florida-Southern drawl) big-time.


I was not saying he was any of the things you described. LOL.  I was saying that I can no more make unduly assured predictions about him than he can make unduly assured predictions about what we will hear, what SOE will say, and so forth. 


You need to reread my posts twice (maybe three times) before responding to them.  Seriously.

Originally posted by RPGBeech

If your point was the part in yellow, why did you include the part I quoted ?

Originally posted by healz4u

Originally posted by RPGBeech

If your point was the part in yellow, why did you include the part I quoted ?

The point was that his unduly assured "predictions" were as absurd as mine.  You took it a bit too seriously, though.  You started to talk about moving in your basement and something about being working-class and affording a PC.  Look, my Friend, I have been critical about Vanguard's lofty PC demands.  It is ridiculous in my opinion to have a game that cannot be played on the average PC.  To be specific to your question, I was not slinging mud.  It was an absurd theory ("prediction") that he will continue to troll and flame Vanguard forums for months (years).  I also think you got the joke mixed-up as well.    You are also calling me a "man"  who judges people based on their PC performance.  LOL. 


To be honest, reading your post again while reading this explanation has confused me and given me a slight headache. lol.

Originally posted by RPGBeech your attempt at performing
a "psychological diagnosis" on someone and trying to be an authority on their motivations is
disingenuous at best.