General Discussion

Originally posted by heerobya

I say give people XP for PVP kills, more for higher levels and less for lower levels, more for accomplishing PVP objectives, less for losing a battle etc. So people can really level a character from min to max doing only PVP if they so choose. Or, they can supliment some of the quest/grind time with PVP so they still advance their character.

Why has this never been done before?

The first game to do this will be VERY popular with the PVP crowd, as long as the PVP is balanced/fair. Award the most XP for killing players right around your level to encourage fair competition. Split PVP experience between players who participate in the kill to discourage ganking and encourage group play/tactics.

Have PVP kills drop some random token/badge which can be collected and traded in for better equipment as you level, much like quests reward gear / money for completing them, award money/gear for turning in PVP tokens/badges. Give more tokens/badges for accomplishing PVP objectives. Diminish XP gains off of killing the same player over and over to reduce likelyhood of camping.

Everything that's already in place in a good PVP game, just add experience gains for doing it. Do that, and create quests for accomplishing things in PVP like WoW did. Except, a whole heck of a lot more of them, and repeatable for more XP. Balance it out so that average quester/grinder/PVPer will all gain around the same XP / gear/ money per hour played.

Sorry a little off topic, but something one of you said reminded me to go on a rant about this lol. Read my previous posts in this thread for my "on topic" responses lol. my bad

I think that when developers focus on the ease of balance that is afforded by a class based system they sell us, the players, shorter than a midget on his knees.

They then attempt to pigeon hole what they feel is the most popular classes that people want to play and then focus on those to the exclusion of anything else.

This is boring, trite, and just plain not fun. It's like going to Baskin Robins and having a choice of only Vanilla, Choclate, or Strawberry. BOOOOOOOO-urns. I like Jamoca Almond Fudge

Another good analogy is if someone opened a pizzeria and didn't give the customers a choice of toppings. You had to get only the specialty pizzas they have on the menu without being able to alter the toppings. They wouldn't do too much business.

This fundemental choice is the epicenter that creates the whole macrocosm that is the game. Once you drop the class stone or the skill stone into the water the ripples reach out and touch every aspect of the game.

For instance, class based games by nature are heavily linear and leave no room for player creativity. They also tend to lend themselves to being conducive to an environment that unfolds just like the previous class based game. In essence, it's the same game as the last class based game, but with a different skin. Class based systems also tend to be game worlds in which the developers dictate to the players how to play the game, more so than a skill based system. But yeah it makes it's easier on the the dev team insofar as balance is concerned. But players aren't here to make the developers lives easier.

Conversely, a skill based system encourages players to be creative and flowers an environment conducive to unpredictability. Skill based systems also have the advantage of laying the ground work for the players themselves to create the game world insofar as their characters and their charcater's interactions with the game world and themselves is concerned.

Sure skill based systems are harder on the dev team insofar as balance and content development is concerned, but guess what:

Wah wah.

If developers keep taking the easy and safe way the genre will flounder and fall on it's face.

It's way past time for an MMORPG to come out that is based on having fun and not grinding, timesinks, and linear gameplay. Grinds and timesinks are diesinged for one thing only and that's to increase the shelf life of your paid subscription. It's lame, not at all fun, and not even close to being original.

If I want a single player experience I'll buy or rent a single player game for one of my many gaming systems or my PC. It's cheaper than paying a monthly fee... much cheaper.

Monthly fees are a whole other ball game with me. If developers want my cash, they better damn well give me something for it. The current climate has fostered laziness and inconsideration on many developers parts. I, for one, am more than sick to death of this.

Originally posted by Hexxeity
This article is overly simplistic, misleading, and clearly biased.

First, it sets up a false dichotomy.  There is no law of game design that states you must choose class- or skill-based, and that no other system is possible.  I personally feel it would be a lot healthier for developers to think outside this particular box.

Also, the description of class-based systems is far from complete.  There was absolutely no mention of character customization within a class-based system.  The article makes it sound as if every member of a class is exactly the same.  In a lot of games, this couldn't be further from the truth.  In WoW (which I use as an example because most players are familiar with it), a Shadow Priest differs significantly from a Holy Priest.  While both can fulfill the basic duties of a priest, the gameplay for each is a very different experience.

The article is misleading -- actually, it's outright false -- in saying that members of a certain class can never learn skills inherent in another class.  Take City of Heroes for example.  Healing is normally the purview of Defenders and Controllers, yet any character from any archetype can take a decent healing power (and even learn to rez) by selecting it as a Pool power.  Likewise a Controller, typically weak on offense, can take fighting Pool powers to round himself out.  (I know because I've done it, and it's a lot of fun.)  You cannot completely disregard your class's intended function, but you can definitely make your character differ from the norm.

Ultimately, pure skill-based systems and pure class-based systems are both far too limiting.  As with so many things in life, moderation is key.  A well-designed hybrid is probably the best way to go -- something where a character's overall strengths and weaknesses are directed by a class-like framework, but where the player is free to sacrifice some of that focus in order to make up for some of the class's deficiencies that annoy him.

Right now, CoH and D&D are my favorite systems.  Both are ultimately class-based, yet both allow the player a lot of customization without some of the horrible drawbacks of the skill-based model.

I beg to differ. This is a very myopic look at  class based and skill based systems. Sure it gives you choices in your chosen class, but you're still pigeon holed by your class. You talk about thinking outside of the box so how about the people that want to create outside the box characters. The tank, damage dealer, healer, hybrid archetypes is not the answer to this no matter how much choice you get inside of the framework for each of those achetypes the gameplay will be exactly the same as the last class based system.

The tank tanks, the damage dealers deal damage, and the healers heal. This isn't fun anymore. It's not even challenging.

The heart of the matter is that the choice between class based systems and skill based systems is the epicenter and microcosm to the macrocosm of the game world.

You can't develop a skill based game like you would a class based game. The opposite is true as well. The gameplay has to fit.

I do agree that it would be nice to see something outside these 2 choices, but right now there's nothing even on the horizon that even remotely breaks away from these 2 schools of thought. 

I have to say that I've always been a fan of skill-based games.

However, that’s only because Devs don't typically take advantage of the class based system like they should.

Class based systems don't need to be ultra rigid and strict systems where you can never explore new skills or try new things. Classes should be a suggestion not a COMMAND. If you see some guy in the Soldier class running around, you can probably assume he’s good with some kind of weapon and has decent HP. He might however have dabbled into healing magic and could be a good ranged fighter too. 

If they make a game where at character creation you pick a class where you get either natural bonuses to learning class appropriate skills or default skill sets that you can branch out of later (preferably earlier) on in the game play you give the player a good balance of two things: freedom and direction.

Excellent article. Pure skill based is the way to go because it puts control in the hands of the player. 

I'll outline my reasoning:

Classes & Levels (the bad)-

1) Ruins open pvp. A Level 1 player has absolutely no chance against a Level 34 player. It's not fun being in a fight you have absolutely no chance in winning. Sure, maybe I would never have a chance anyway against 5 players (5v1) but at least that makes a lot more sense

2) Restricts the player to a specific role. The Developer has confined players to "their" vision of how a player works. This is good in a way because if I recruit a priest I "know" he will have a heal spell. So read below how a skill system can encompass this role play and do it better. The main issue with this though is that this robs the player of having the freedom to design their toon to fit their playstyle. Also, the less choices these systems have- the more you resemble other toons in your profession which ruins the uniqueness each avatar should have in an MMO. In some loot based, class games many players from the same profession wear the same armor which is not good

3) Like the author says- Class systems are forcing players to make a decision before they even play the game! Also, this really is just a serious timesink because if I decide I dont like my class I have to reroll. In some MMOs (like City of Heroes) it gets so bad if I pick the wrong power I am forever screwed. I have seen lowbies in that game delete their entire toon and restart.

4) Not very realistic limiting a player to a specific set of skills. Also, Class systems tend to be way too rigid. In many you cant drop undesired powers and if you can- most MMOs will charge you money or respecs wil be limited

Skills (the good points and solutions to the bad):

1) There is no end game. I can always strive to build my perfect character and integrate all the skills I want. The Devs can always simply add more skills and I ahve the freedom to grab them. This is what I do in Guild Wars. I created maxed out pvp toon and simply unlock the skills I want.

2) You can still promote roleplay and limit the skills by having templates (set number of skills allowed).

3) Puts control into the hands of the player. Players will constantly seek the best builds and if the skills are pretty well balanced players can entertain themselves indefinetly. This is because skill based systems have INFINITE variety of powerful combos. So yes that could be a little more work to balance out but you place limits on this if you use a system akin to FURY (pvp oriented MMO).

4) Much higher quality PvP. Now a newbie has a fighting chance against a veteran. The vet should still win of course if he has more skills and more experience using his build. This means good open pvp is a lot more achieveable in this setting.

5) Lots more realistic. It makes no sense whatsoever that a warrior cant pickup a wand, use it, and start learning how to spellcraft (become a mage). Just like real life I can always study and learn new skills

6) If a person equips a lot of healing skills they could be labeled "Healer" this way when people form groups and they seek out certain roles they will get it. Players will no longer have to worry bout not getting teams because they cant heal or provide support. If you learn those skills at some point, you can provide that required role!

7) Players customize their skills to what they enjoy doing. If you want, you could give players all the base skills they need and the more they use that power, the stronger it gets -OR- the more points you accumulate in their area allowing players to unlock other skills

 8) Now you can ALWAYS play with your friends! Dont you hate it when in a level/class based MMO your buddy gets far ahead of you? There is no such elitism in a skill based MMO- you can always play with your friends. You wont have to play catchup or grind just to hang out with your pals. Now I realize some level based MMOs have sidekicking (like City of Heroes). However, in CoX lowbies still get dissed because they lack critical skills. In a skill based MMO- players should have the freedom to learn essential skills at anytime.