Originally posted by Cabe2323

Originally posted by mugs
You missed my point, my point is:
There are Thousands of PVE focus game, or casual pvp game! LOTS and there are still babies crying for more but not spending the time to actualy play the games that are out there.
So every forum i go i see lots of people looking for real pvp games and there are none!
So everyone that is currently creating, developing a new PVE game is just shaping the things so ppl can give them money to get what they want and move on.
I say stop making lots of games, and make a good one.

There are no "real" PVP games because that is a niche market.  There are not enough customers to make a profitiable game in this environment.  The days are gone of old school UO or AC Darktide.  The Masses have spoken and the gaming companies (the big ones with the big budgets) are listening.  And those masses have said we don't want a lot of PVP, we want to be able to do it when we want, and we don't want to lose our Uber sword of pwning that we got from Super Mob #256. 

So until a large company takes a chance and makes a game where Skill and not gear determines your ability to PVP, expect these type of PVP lite games. 

Your mostly right.  This is the prevailing view of the Hard Core player on why PVP is not flourishing and/or being restricted to battle zones.  In truth, large gaming companies had to end TEFs because of the East Asian Regulations on PVP.  In essance, the reg states PVP must be chosen and not forced.  The choice has to be clear so NO TEF.  Why do companies bow to this reg?  Look at the numbers.  WOW has 8 mil subs, with 2-3 mil in the U.S..  The other 5-6 mil are in Asia.  The gaming companies cant afford to alienate those markest as they pay the most.  Why did these regs happen?  Some Hard Core players could not handle thier toon being killed and took Real World action against their in game attacker.  Real World Deaths accured.  The East Asians are reeeally into MMO's.

If you track back to when these regs took effect, you will find many games changed thier TEF systems to comply at that time.

Reading Steve's comments about DAoC and WoW's battlegrounds really made me wonder if he actually knows what he is talking about.  Did he even play those games?  Surely didn't seem like it to me when he talked about their battlegrounds.

DAoC you were never "at the mercy" of larger numbers.  The guards at the keep you portaled in at were unkillable and able to typically 1 shot even the toughest enemy player.  It was very easy to determine if it was suicide or not to leave the safety of the portal keep.  Simply see who is in the zone, if someone is there ask them if any action going on.

WoW's battlegrounds have too large a level range so the part about casuals never being outleveled is also incorrect.  A 51 entering Alterac Valley, will be horribly weak vs the 60's running around.  So a casual is essentially forced to level up to within a level or two of the battleground level cap if he hopes to be effective.

Steve also writes about casuals in battlegrounds as somehow not being team players.  I also find this to be incorrect as typically the first few times they are in a battleground, of whichever game, they actually strive to be team players to learn the ropes as it were.  They hardly ever are pvping in a battleground to "amuse themselves first and foremost".

In addition I took exception to his implying that the hardcore players are more "skilled" than the casuals.  Just because you play a <classname> 40 hours a week doesn't make  you a better player than the guy who plays 10 hours a week.   Gear is very helpful in WoW or DAoC, but Skill almost always beats Gear.  My non-epic, basic dungeon blue'd mage could frequently take down a certain tier 2 warrior in AV.  Simply put he didn't play very well and seemed to just rely on the high armor, stats and bonuses of his shiny gear.

Kind of funny article.  Typical of what we see a lot of today.  Tried a topic that he really does not understand.

My first pvp was UO  and I loved it.  I never was a ganker, but did have fun hunting those that did.

Have not found the pvp to be that good in any of the present games.  DAoC was not too bad until the Atlantis expansion.

Looking at some of the full pvp games coming out does not raise my hopes much. 

Well, as a 'casual player' who is useless at PvP - it's been a while since I read such a load of nonsense! It reads like the writer wants a stick-drawing world where every character is completely equal in stats and equipment, all players have their PCs and network connections downgraded to a standard level, everyone has their reaction and thinking speed altered downwards and all battles take place in a flat, terrainless arena so you can't use any tactics... which would equal a 'fair fight' and be utterly boring and pointless.

Alternately, if some people get together and work together in PvP, should a bunch of folks who met ten seconds ago be able to go in and beat the team players? Surely that's so stupid a concept that it doesn't need considering by anyone who has not got a writing deadline to meet and no sensible ideas to write about....

Can I as a 'casual player' compete with those who work on getting the equipment and skills (In-game and real life) to excel at PvP? Nope.

Does that matter? Not really... if I wanted to do serious PvP, I'd find the time to get good at it, or like in the real universe, settle for not being able to do something - or is the next step of this gibberish the idea that, since I'd quite like to be an olympic gold medal winner in swimming, the people I'd have to compete against should all have lead weights tied to them so I can have a 'fair' chance?

Please people... raise the writing and thinking standards bar a bit before such badly thought through and superficial 'articles' do more damage to the reputation of the site.

PvP is more interesting than PvE; humans are more unpredicable.

Unless artificial intelligence of games improves greatly, most people will eventually become bored.

Long live Eve Online!

The problem with Battlegrounds is that it limits PvPers to a small zone to pvp (at least in WoW and City of Heroes). In a way I suppose that is good because it allows for pvpers to meet up fairly fast and have some action. But what is also desired is a sort of cause-and-effect PvP. For instance, perhaps allow casual players to turn their PvP flag off. Then if they see their town getting sacked, they have the option to engage the enemy players. This way you don't have ganking, griefing, etc. And of course have some large zones where your pvp flag is always enabled. WoW has done this on the PvE servers. On the PvP Servers they have done this up to level 25 or something (in your own faction lands your flag is disabled).

Ideally what would be even nicer than that 'consentual pvp system I listed above' is to have 'realms' that players can freely move inbetween (think Guild Wars 2). Certain realms will be open pvp anywhere and other realms will be for the 'carebears'. Perhaps even offer a little more incentive to visit the all PvP worlds. This way the pvpers are not limited to fighting in a small zone and we get the full pvp experience. This also allows the carebears to do their own thing in peace.

Neither of those systems are really 'logicial' or realistic too me though. Warhammer Online is probably on the right track with their consentual pvp systems it sort of makes the most sense too me I suppose.

EvE actually has the most logical system I've ever heard of. If you try to gank someone in protected space, a guard comes after you. That is believeable too me. They also have a large player driven FFA zone. I do not play EvE but from what I have heard it sounds like the Developers put a lot of thought into creating a very believeable world. Perhaps the OP should checkout that game

Originally posted by mugs
someone asked me why i keep calling the casual whiners and babies, its simple, if you want something you have to work for it, not look around what everyone have and say: "hey its not fair you guys worked for it and have it and i dont, God can u fix the rules?"

What you fail to realize- a PvPer can be HARDCORE pvp but casual PvE. I know I HATED raiding but I spent 8+ hrs pvping a day sometimes on the weekends etc. I put in just as much time as a PvE raider. However, the raiders still got the best gear. So what you are trying to tell me I was "lazy"? That's a load of crap I spent more time then the raiders but I got penalized because I did what I wanted in WoW. It got so bad my PvP guild quit WoW because it looked like even with the expansion, they would be forced to raid. Something us full blooded pvpers depise. We rather have the chance to loot our victims or earn equivalent gear via pvp for our time invested. Also, keep in mind we did organize 40+ man raids so how is what we do anything different from a HARDCORE carebear? It's NOT.

Ideally I like games like Guild Wars. Thats a REAL pvp game based on skill, not hrs put in. That's real PvP really.

The issue is not casual vs hardcore. It's being able to earn the best rewards doing what I think is fun vs tedium. I put in more time then a raider so I deserve the best rewards as well, period. A Crafter should also be able to make the best items and so on.

I do disagree with the OP to a certain extent. He needs to play mroe Guild Wars thats the type of game I want. No levels. Everyone can earn new skills and everyone is on a level playing field. Then we will see who has skill and who doesn't

Staff Writer Steve Wilson returns with his Casual Play column. This week, he looks at PvP for the casual player.

Player versus player combat isn't for everyone. Some casual players forego it altogether for a number of reasons. Some never attain the full range of skills to become effective at killing anything other than badly scripted monsters. Others find having to rely on guilds and secondary programs too onerous. And others embrace it wholeheartedly even with the knowledge that there are severe PvP drawbacks that apply only to the casual gamer.

In the older games PvP was dominated by gank squads. The worlds would generally have open PvP throughout their entire environment. Players could attack each other at any time and in any numbers. This typically led to gangs of thugs interested only in killing others, teaming up when needed to outnumber smaller groups. Guilds formed to fight these gankers and the arms race was on to see who could field a bigger group at any given moment. Players without guilds were often fodder that represented about as much resistance as a speed bump. In this environment the casual player suffers greatly. They often lacked the time required to immerse themselves in a guild capable of fielding enough members in order to win a race out-mobbing other players. Ultima Online was the first big commercial game to try this style of PvP and the majority of customers complained bitterly.

Originally posted by busdriver

Staff Writer Steve Wilson returns with his Casual Play column. This week, he looks at PvP for the casual player.

Player versus player combat isn't for everyone. Some casual players forego it altogether for a number of reasons. Some never attain the full range of skills to become effective at killing anything other than badly scripted monsters. Others find having to rely on guilds and secondary programs too onerous. And others embrace it wholeheartedly even with the knowledge that there are severe PvP drawbacks that apply only to the casual gamer.

In the older games PvP was dominated by gank squads. The worlds would generally have open PvP throughout their entire environment. Players could attack each other at any time and in any numbers. This typically led to gangs of thugs interested only in killing others, teaming up when needed to outnumber smaller groups. Guilds formed to fight these gankers and the arms race was on to see who could field a bigger group at any given moment. Players without guilds were often fodder that represented about as much resistance as a speed bump. In this environment the casual player suffers greatly. They often lacked the time required to immerse themselves in a guild capable of fielding enough members in order to win a race out-mobbing other players. Ultima Online was the first big commercial game to try this style of PvP and the majority of customers complained bitterly.

Somehow I get the feeling that our dear Stevie here was one of those 'speed bumps'. I bet he played UO for 2 weeks, got owned, cried because of it and went to Evercrap. Here's a thought: If you're too busy to L2P the game, then maybe the game isn't for you?


Let the hardcore players with their legendary items duke it out in their own battlegrounds while the rag tag casuals meet in a battleground with significantly lower standards

Great idea there Stevie, let casuals have their own little barnyard where they can duel while hardcores stay in the woods ganking eachothers. Right. There's no way anyone could exploit this, nope, not a chance.

While I would be categorized a casual player, I do participate in PvP - even though I don't care for it outside of a battleground or arena.  It's not because I don't like competition.  I like it well enough to keep coming back for more even when the odds are against me.  Where I do not understand PvP is on open PvP servers/games where gangs and/or top-level players get their kicks off killing others who present absolutely no challenge.

Why is stopping someone else from playing considered fun?  I don't get it.   Played sports at all?  Stopping someone else from playing gets you thrown out of the game (hockey excepted - ).  It's unsportsmanlike.  When your level 60 "toon" runs up on a level 20 - 50 character and starts hacking away with abandon, it's murder (albeit virtual) without remorse.  If you wanna play Anakin Skywalker and go after defenseless padawans, go do it in your own home and save the rest of us some trouble later on.

Phew.  Anyhow, I liken myself to a mad scientist.  In MMOGs, I have my own little lab where I try different strategies to learn the ins and outs of the game.  For example, in WoW over the span of the last eight months, I have leveled roughly 40 characters up between the levels of 9 and 40, with around 30 of those falling between 25 and 40.  Each character has a different tradeskill and talent point loadout.  There are no two characters of the same race who are also the same class.  That's how I like to play.  I like to learn about my enemy by becoming my enemy.  It makes me a better PvPer.  However, in WoW's brand of PvP, level > gear > skill.

So what now?  Welp, I'll keep plugging away at WoW and wait for an MMOG that fits me better.  And if you meet me on the battlefield, you can expect an evenly matched game.  Just know that I know your tricks.

Originally posted by Cabe2323

Originally posted by busdriver

Staff Writer Steve Wilson returns with his Casual Play column. This week, he looks at PvP for the casual player.

Player versus player combat isn't for everyone. Some casual players forego it altogether for a number of reasons. Some never attain the full range of skills to become effective at killing anything other than badly scripted monsters. Others find having to rely on guilds and secondary programs too onerous. And others embrace it wholeheartedly even with the knowledge that there are severe PvP drawbacks that apply only to the casual gamer.

In the older games PvP was dominated by gank squads. The worlds would generally have open PvP throughout their entire environment. Players could attack each other at any time and in any numbers. This typically led to gangs of thugs interested only in killing others, teaming up when needed to outnumber smaller groups. Guilds formed to fight these gankers and the arms race was on to see who could field a bigger group at any given moment. Players without guilds were often fodder that represented about as much resistance as a speed bump. In this environment the casual player suffers greatly. They often lacked the time required to immerse themselves in a guild capable of fielding enough members in order to win a race out-mobbing other players. Ultima Online was the first big commercial game to try this style of PvP and the majority of customers complained bitterly.

Somehow I get the feeling that our dear Stevie here was one of those 'speed bumps'. I bet he played UO for 2 weeks, got owned, cried because of it and went to Evercrap. Here's a thought: If you're too busy to L2P the game, then maybe the game isn't for you?


Let the hardcore players with their legendary items duke it out in their own battlegrounds while the rag tag casuals meet in a battleground with significantly lower standards

Great idea there Stevie, let casuals have their own little barnyard where they can duel while hardcores stay in the woods ganking eachothers. Right. There's no way anyone could exploit this, nope, not a chance.

Here is another great example of the attitude that prevails in the "Hardcore" pvp world.  Whats the matter Busdriver can't compete at work? or do you get pushed around by the popular kids at school? 


"Casuals" as they are called only want a fair and enjoyable GAME experience.  The Supposed "Hardcore" want the ability to show off their uber leet weapons and armor by greifing the Casuals.  They always get scared that their EPeen will shrivel up and fall off anytime someone suggests that they only PVP against other "Hardcore" players.  See the problem with that is the "Hardcore" do not want competition.  They want to crush weaker enemies to make themselves feel good.

Originally posted by Cabe2323

Originally posted by busdriver

Staff Writer Steve Wilson returns with his Casual Play column. This week, he looks at PvP for the casual player.

Player versus player combat isn't for everyone. Some casual players forego it altogether for a number of reasons. Some never attain the full range of skills to become effective at killing anything other than badly scripted monsters. Others find having to rely on guilds and secondary programs too onerous. And others embrace it wholeheartedly even with the knowledge that there are severe PvP drawbacks that apply only to the casual gamer.

In the older games PvP was dominated by gank squads. The worlds would generally have open PvP throughout their entire environment. Players could attack each other at any time and in any numbers. This typically led to gangs of thugs interested only in killing others, teaming up when needed to outnumber smaller groups. Guilds formed to fight these gankers and the arms race was on to see who could field a bigger group at any given moment. Players without guilds were often fodder that represented about as much resistance as a speed bump. In this environment the casual player suffers greatly. They often lacked the time required to immerse themselves in a guild capable of fielding enough members in order to win a race out-mobbing other players. Ultima Online was the first big commercial game to try this style of PvP and the majority of customers complained bitterly.

Somehow I get the feeling that our dear Stevie here was one of those 'speed bumps'. I bet he played UO for 2 weeks, got owned, cried because of it and went to Evercrap. Here's a thought: If you're too busy to L2P the game, then maybe the game isn't for you?


Let the hardcore players with their legendary items duke it out in their own battlegrounds while the rag tag casuals meet in a battleground with significantly lower standards

Great idea there Stevie, let casuals have their own little barnyard where they can duel while hardcores stay in the woods ganking eachothers. Right. There's no way anyone could exploit this, nope, not a chance.

Here is another great example of the attitude that prevails in the "Hardcore" pvp world.  Whats the matter Busdriver can't compete at work? or do you get pushed around by the popular kids at school? 


"Casuals" as they are called only want a fair and enjoyable GAME experience.  The Supposed "Hardcore" want the ability to show off their uber leet weapons and armor by greifing the Casuals.  They always get scared that their EPeen will shrivel up and fall off anytime someone suggests that they only PVP against other "Hardcore" players.  See the problem with that is the "Hardcore" do not want competition.  They want to crush weaker enemies to make themselves feel good.

Cabe2323 - And I suppose you've never once taken advantage of someone "inferior" to yourself, real life or otherwise? Shame on you for stereotyping the Hardcore gamer. Perhaps some of your post holds true to the newer generation of self-proclaimed "hardcore" gamers, but the older-schooled Hardcores were, and mostly still are, seekers of fun, and fun means a good challenge. If we could travel back in time to 1999-2002, then you could see what Hardcore really is. Seeing as how we can't really do that though, let's take a look at Guild Wars. The game has a pretty equal playing field, and the Hardcore are those who can strategize, react, and plan ahead. When I played, I was always looking for tougher battles. I disliked matches where the opposing team was handicapped, and I found that throwing together a rag-tag group was just as much fun as a well-formed team, and provided for a much harder challenge when it came to formulating and progressing through matches. I was a bit of a Hardcore player there, and I fought along side the casuals, and most times our battles were against a well-formed group of Hardcores, and we often did just as well as they. Cabe, you like to show off your fancy forum bashing abilities, don't you? Unfortunately for you, you are the equivalent of a child with a Q-Tip. Does your bashing make you feel good? I sure hope so, because all it really does is simply entice your target, rather than crushing them with fact. By the way, how's your EPeen feeling? Does it shrivel when others prove you wrong? Does it shrivel when others are better than you?

undiesusa - I agree, those games were really great PVP games. Not so much anymore though. And yeah, I loved the fact that I got penalized for my rampant killing in UO, or could track down and kill a thief who looted my kill in Shadowbane. It was great fun playing those games, and I remember waking up and wanting to spend my day in front of my computer. I felt compelled to become a part of the community. But with WoW, the so called all-mighty game of games, I find myself wanting to go out and do better things, like watching paint dry.

Originally posted by Reklaw

What i mostly get out of the topic is the lack of support from casuals on battlegrounds which for me has nothing to do with them being casual or not, it has to do if they are social or not, regardless how casual or hardcore someone is when entering a battleground all it takes is communication with your team members, cause in the case of the battlegrounds in WOW you become a team wether you like it or not, so what  any social person would do is act like a team and communicate, yes that is a problem if you are not guilded or with a tight group you know, but this has nothing to do with a person being casual or hardcore, it's about being social.

Originally posted by mugs
omg, LOL
are you serious? QQ more, casual players want to have the best without spending time and skill to get it?
So make a game that everyone is maxed skill, gear and see if it happens
gl

zomgwtfbbq did the masterer just do the ownerer's dance for ten minutes on your corpse before you posted?

what in the WORLD are you typing about?

he brought up some valid points.  which i'll paraphrase --  any noob can grind for 10-14 hours a day, get max level, max gear and still be a total, complete, NOOB -- no skills at all required to get max stuff in these candyland-type games where all you do is get in a big guild,  cast an occasional spell on the raid, and just attend all the raids.

skill?

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.  the only skill required there is a butt that can stay seated for 16 hours straight.

character skill, i.e. levels, does not mean the person is NOT a total nooblet.  again, any noob can grind for countless hours, or get in a decent-to-large-sized guild and get lots of levels and lots of loot.  nothing involving player skill here, at all, in the slightest.

so, again, what in the world are you zomgwtfing my bbq for?