Originally posted by Geiddian

[quote]Originally posted by ShadowZERO

 

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Interesting.  So you are blaming the CEO, the Technology Director, and the Vice President of the company as being the "problems" with HJ.  May i be so bold as to ask why?  I've been a player of Simutronics games since Gemstone 3 around the year '95.  I also have to note that the lead designer of HJ(Stephanie Shaver) was not mentioned as a problem.

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I'll try to answer your questions one at a time. I'll save my thoughts on those three for the end, if I may.

Stephanie Shaver is a capable artist. As I recall that was why she was hired in the first place. Artists don't generally make the production decisions, however. I don't see many people complaining about the artistic design of HJ. Do you? That isn't really the problem. Much of the appeal of HJ comes from that design. But producing the game is something much different.

 

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Also, as far as the definition of vaporware, i think the true definition is a game that was in development, but was completely cancelled.  So while the possibility of HJ being vaporware is there, I fail to see how you can say that the game is in fact vaporware.  Maybe you missed the brand new footage of the city that they have been working on at TenTonHammer.com. www.tentonhammer.com/index.php.

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The term vaporware originated that way, yes. The term is now applied to games which don't seem to be on a good track for actually being released. This is the perception of HJ for many people. We all remember other games which finally proved themselves to be vaporware, for various reasons. Mythica, Master of Magic II, Harpoon IV, Multiplayer Battletech at EA, and so on. HJ is beginning to look like those games. The ostensible reason is the concentration on the HeroEngine. However, also remember that this supposed slowdown came after HJ was so hyped at the 2005 E3. Bad timing. You don't push your game out there, encourage a fan base, gather awards at E3 and then wander off to do other things. It looks bad. It begins to smell of vaporware.

As for the new art. Again. That is one reason I didn't list Stephanie Shaver. She and the art team are competent people. But in the end, pretty pictures are just pretty pictures, not a complete game.

 

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Either way, I think the point that a lot of people miss is that the overall health of the company is more important(at least at first) than the overall health of the game, especially if you decide that that health of the game is measured in "public perception".  Simutronics has absolute nothing to prove to people like you, and could really care less how many people cry "vaporware!!!" just because they had to put their designing of the game on a "back burner" for a little while, which was simply  to ensure that they will have the necessary funding to complete the game.  The proof will be in the pudding, which will be available when(and not if) the game launches.

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Most of this ties in with points below about two of those three individuals. Again, you don't put a game on the back burner after pushing it so publicly into view at E3 2005. That is what creates the perception of vaporware. And you're making a completely umsupported statement saying when not if. The proof will indeed be in the pudding IF the game is ever released.

 

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Expect to be retracting your vaporware argument later this year as they improve their ability to keep both the Hero Engine project and the Hero's Journey project moving forward independantly, which was admittedly a problem during the past year.  Keep in mind the more money they make from the engine licensees the more money they have to pump into the game.

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I'll gladly retract the vaporware statement if the game is ever actually released. Not before then. However, your arguments that it isn't vaporware can get old and cobweb-covered with no end in sight, can't they? At what point will you be willing to admit that you were wrong? If the game is cancelled completely, if the game is still not out when we're all using walkers to get around the old folks' home? What's your limit?

As for the money they make, that again will be addressed below.

 

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What i'm interested to see is if they will actually be able to publish their own game.  Its highly unlikely IMO that they will, but if they have a very close to finished and polished product to negotiate with, finding a publisher to put boxes on store shelves wouldn't be as much of a problem.  But who knows, if they do really well with the Hero Engine, they might even be able to publish themselves.

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They already went the route of looking for outside publishers for that game. No takers. So it was decided to publish entirely in house. I agree that they probably need an outside publisher if this game is ever going to see the light of day. But then, we aren't in charge are we? See below.

 

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Simutronics is going through a revolutionary time for them, and there's really no reason to think that they would just scrap the project that they have been planning for about 10 years(not developing mind you, the current HJ project will likely be in the development cycle for a bit longer than most MMOs, but a lot of people don't understand that the HJ that was worked on back in 99 is a totally different project, that was never really expected to launch.)  The current version of the game didn't start development until they finished the basics of the Hero Engine, and is in much better shape to become a mass market product.

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This is incorrect. I've known Tom Zelinksi for a long time. When he was producer, which he still was in 2002 by the way - at least that's how he was introduced to the crowd at that Simucon, the game was indeed expected to be released. In that period, Derek Sanderson was the lead designer. I wonder whatever happended to him?

 

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And before i run the risk of sounding like a Simu fanboi, i'd like to point out that there are 2 major things that i hate about the company, but i won't go into them just yet.  In fact, thats the main reason that i'm wondering why you think that the leaders of the company are "problems" for HJ.

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I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Let's take them one at a time.

David Whatley. He is still living in the fantasy world created when Simutronics launched on the web after AOL and Simutronics ended up listed as one of the Forbes' fasting growing companies. That too was a passing fancy. But it still hasn't sunk in with David. He still acts like he's the up-and-coming, golden-haired wunderkind of the gaming industry, even though his player base has been steadily shrinking ever since.

And then there's his alleged penchant for romancing young ladies who play his games (some under 18), and making them part of his company and promoting them into positions of responsibility. Do you recall that Melissa Meyer, who has since left Simutronics with her latest husband Matt, also a former Simutronics GM, was before that Melissa Callaway and for a while in the late 1990's she was also Melissa Whatley, straight out of high school? From player of the game to wife of the CEO then to various positions within the company then eventually producer of Gemstone and HJ? A few years back, he had on his personal web site pic of various of his young girlfriends/players in lingerie poses. They've since been removed. Fast sports cars, young girls and a persistent fanstasy of being a "leading" game company CEO. Those are some of my problems with Mr. Whatley.

Neil Harris came to Simutronics after leaving GEnie in July, 1993. On the same day that GEnie's pricing structure changed. He left GEnie because they changed that pricing structure, reducing the price from $6/hr to $3/hr. At least that's what he once told me was the reason he left. Maybe it isn't true. He was instrumental in the shift a few years later from AOL to the web. For that I applaud him. After that, however, he displayed a certain lack of consideration for the players of Simutronics' games. If you played Gemstone since 1995 then you were there for the fiasco with the "double" billing in late 2004 (I may have my year wrong there) because of a supposed accounting error. It wasn't really a double billing but a change from post-billing to pre-billing monthly. But the timing was stupid, the explanations were feeble and it made a lot of people very angry. At the heart of that was Neil Harris, unapologetic and apparently entirely immune to the concerns of the community. There is a disconnect between the financial concerns of the company and an understanding that the community of customers is the basis for having the company in the first place. He has a certain corporate mind-set which thinks that the customers can be treated any old way, without regard to how it might look, and the customers just have to deal with it. I don't think he's ever really grasped that in a gaming community, the fan base is very important. It's a lesson SOE seems also to never have learned or learned too late.

Finally, Eric Slick. Melissa Meyer would be in this spot if she were still the producer of HJ. She's now with some other game company. I believe in some capacity at NCSoft working on their future game called Aion. But Eric is the producer now. His previous experience being as a player of the text-based Gemstone and as a producer of the text-based Dragonrealms, just as Melissa's prior experience was as a player of and producer of the text-based Gemstone and not entirely coincidentally girlfriend and then one of the wives of the CEO. Not much in the way of experience with graphic games for either. But Bubba is the producer of HJ now. The buck stops with him. He too suffers from the delusion that the game is separate from the community. He'd make a wonderful, or perhaps I should say typical, customer service rep for SOE. Sadly, he's the producer of HJ.

If Suz Dodd were still alive and still the producer of these games, there would be more hope. It's possible that some of the outstanding people at Simutronics, like Elonka, can overcome the negatives of the three individuals above and the game will actually see the light of day. I'm not optimistic, obviously. I think it would be wonderful if the game did see launch. Until then, my opinion stands. It's vaporware that won't ever see launch.

Was that detailed enough an explanation, Shadowmage? :)

Ok, fair enough.  You have reasons for feeling the way you do, and i respect the time it took you to write about them without bashing me for still being interested in HJ.  The simple fact on my end is that HJ is the only game in development right now, that(even if they only release with half the promised feautres) that truly fits my "vision" of what a fun game will/could be.  I still play DR, and i've tried a few MUDs and none of them even come close to comparing to the depth and level of detail DR has.  Ever since EQ came out in 99, i have been looking for a 3d game that could match the depth i experienced in Simutronics MUDs, and obviously i have not found a single one yet.  In one of the first interviews with Stephanie Shaver on this site(i'm too lazy to post the link atm) Steph went over the things that "made a great mmorpg" for her.  Those things she said fit perfectly with my vision of what the ultimate MMORPG could be.

You obviously seem to have more knowledge about the history of Simutronics and their employees than the average person.  However, unless i'm off base, Steph is not simply the art director as you said, but the lead content creator(aka "Lead Designer") of HJ.  I admit my ignorance of how a gaming business works in terms of the relation of the producer to the lead designer, but the way the interviews on this site have gone, is seems like Steph is ultimately the one in charge of putting the game together.

On to some other points you made:  I definitely agree that it was bad timing(at least from a fan's perspective) to push a "media blitz" for a game to encourage hype, and then decide to have a media blackout "to wander off and do other things".  But i really don't blame them for that, they are a small studio, and like i said before, prior to the sale of the Engine they were simply not capable of handling both projects.  Now in the more recent interviews(on TenTonHammer.com), they have said that they are expanding their offices so that both projects can move forward independantly.

Quote: "I'll show you mine if you show me yours"

Ok, well i guess i will.  Your problem with simutronics is the people in charge of some of the more important functions of the company.  Regardless, I've played a few MUDs and a few MMORPGs, and Dragonrealms is by far, the most interesting game on the market IMO.  The big factor in DR for me is the ability to customize your character to be an incredibly unique even when comparing yourself to other "classes" of the same level.  This is mainly because DR is more a skill based game than a level based game, and you aren't restricted by your "class" choice as to what skills you can learn.  I happen to think that the way the "character building/development" works in that game is far superior to any other MUD or MMORPG.  Also, DR is regularly being updated by the GMs, in fact its hard for a day to go by(even on the weekends) that there isn't some update, addition, or bug fix.  And thats not even including the live events such as merchants, invasions, and some times full scale PvE wars,  things that (to my knowledge) we have not seen in MMORPGs yet.  The point i'm getting at is that the positive side of how the GMs for simutronics handle things in their current games is hard to argue with.  I know, making a 3d game with such good support will be much more difficult, if not impossible.  What i'm trying to say here is that my faith in simutronics somewhat originates from how they handle, update, and balance, their current games.

Ok, so thats the positive side of things.  I felt the need to express the positive side of their games before going into what i absolutely cannot stand about the company.  2 things mainly:  Tiered pricing and Ticketed events.  To me these features are nothing more than an attempt to milk the current customer base for every dollar they can, because they know they have a small but dedicated following that will give into the pressure of paying more monthly, or paying to go on a GM controlled quest.  Now, on the flip side of things, this wouldn't be so bad if it didn't give players who pay more money that play on the same server as the other players who pay the base fee an advantage.  IMO they have done a fairly good job not giving too much to the "premium" paying customer while still providing the incentive to pay the extra montly fee.  But, to me, this is inexcusable.  I don't mind the Platinum server, or The Fallen(PvP) server, because those are segregated from the players who pay the base rate.  But putting premium players in the same world as basic customers gives them direct(if only a small) advantage, just because they are willing to shell out more RL $$$ is what i'm unhappy with.  Same thing goes for ticketed events.  Pay a one time fee, and get a chance at some loot that is not available otherwise.  Inexcusable.  As far as HJ goes, i really hope that Simutronics realizes that they can get away with stuff like that in their MUDs because MUDs are by default a niche product.  IMO, if tiered pricing and ticketed events show up in HJ in a way that gives certain players on the same server more content because they are willing to spend more money, Simu will be facing a harsh reality that that type of thing is going to be received very poorly by the standard MMORPG player.

So to sum it up, I have faith in Simutronics's ability to produce some of the most unique, in-depth, and detailed games.  If they can bring to life a 3d MMORPG that is as far beyond other MMORPGs as DR is beyond other MUDs, than they could have a game on their hands that (dare i say it) could compete with the current subscriber base of WoW.  I know, i know, making a 3d MMO vs a MUD is a totally different thing.  But it does seem, considering that HJ has been planned for a long time now, that they have done their homework.  However, if they let their current pricing scheme for their current games into HJ, i fear the worst.

One last thing(geez this is getting long), I see the argument as to whether or not HJ is/will be vaporware as a moot point.  There are certainly indicators that the production of the game has not been perfect, and you have your own personal reasons for not trusting the company.  But at absolute worst, my take on the situation is that there may be a 50/50 chance whether they game will be released or not.  I personally feel that a launch(even if it takes them much longer than they had originally believed) is almost guaranteed.  The way you say that its in fact vaporware, just because the development of the game hasn't gone entirely as planned is just being overly negative.  One thing i can't argue against is your supposed knowledge of the "higher-ups" in the company, as i have no way to confirm or deny your statements.  But it is your prerogative to define vaporware in any way you choose, and you can call the game vaporware up until it launches if you wish.  You did define vaporware as a game that isn't on a "good track" to being released.  I feel the need to point out that unless you work for the company, whether or not a game is on a "good track" to being released is almost complete speculation. Also, I just don't see the reason to try and bash a game that people are hyped about.  I guess thats what these forums are for, for people to take their negative emotions towards companies/products and express them here, in an environment aside from official or dedicated game forums, where such notions will be received poorly.

Feel free to discuss further if you wish, but at this point i'm thinking we can just agree to disagree.  I rarely post on these forums but you seem to be an educated person with good reasons for your opinion even if it is in complete contradiction to my own.  Its just that HJ is the only game in development that seems to fit my vision for a decent MMORPG, and when someone feels that they can guarantee that the only game i'm looking forward to isn't going to launch kind of hits a soft spot.

 

  Very well said.  Don't get me wrong.  I think HJ is a wonderful concept and if they ever release it, a graphical MMO with dedicated in-game events and GM interaction like we have experienced in GS and DR would be a unique and amazing thing.  I just don't have faith in their ability to get it to a release, not because of any lack on the part of the people designing the game.  The lack will be in the upper eschelons.

  You made some good points about other negative things with Simutronics.  I concentrated only on stating my reasons for naming those three individuals. The tiered pricing system has always seemed unfair to me, even though I could afford to take advantage of it and did so to find greener fields in the platinum versions of the games.   I rarely participated in ticketed events, because I saw them as more of the same greed.  They took away from already paying customers in terms of time and energy of GM's to provide what often turned out to be less-than-promised events that required pay upfront.

  Another problem for me has been the way Simutronics has treated some of their contract GM's.  As you may know, not all GM's are unpaid volunteers. Some do work for contract fees.  I personally know several GM's who were stiffed out of their pay after completing work for Simutronics.  This, again, is likely something to be laid at the feet of management, if only the SGM's.

  Another problem for me is that Simutronics openly embraces third party real money sales of in-game items.  For years they had a very cosy relationship with a third party seller of items and game currency.  In fact, he regularly hosted parties at Simucons.  This attitude doesn't bode well for Simutronics' ethics in HJ.  They have already proven that they are not above profiting from the sale of in-game items and gold.  Rather than try to reduce it, as most game companies do, they seem to me to be likely to actively promote it in partnership with those third party merchants.  It would be a logical step up from tiered pricing and ticketed events for them to do so together with such companies.

   I wish we could have a Simutronics with all of the positives and less of the negatives.  I too played DR, although it was long ago, during the initial beta on GEnie iun 1994 initially (I think), long before Simutronics was available on AOL, and then again later as bards were introduced (some of the really old old-timers might remember my dwarf bard beatnic poet Canu), and I tried it again a third time when traders were introduced.  My interests lay with Gemstone, though.  As you said, the concept of in-game GM events and constant upgrading is a good one, in both games.  And the work of most of the paid GM's and all of the volunteer GM's is wonderful.  If only they didn't have the ball and chain of upper management and unfettered greed hanging around their necks.

  I do hope I'm wrong about HJ being vaporware and that you are right.  The game itself, in concept is wonderful.  On that, at least, I think we can agree?

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by Geiddian

 

  Another problem for me is that Simutronics openly embraces third party real money sales of in-game items.  For years they had a very cosy relationship with a third party seller of items and game currency.  In fact, he regularly hosted parties at Simucons.  This attitude doesn't bode well for Simutronics' ethics in HJ.  They have already proven that they are not above profiting from the sale of in-game items and gold.  Rather than try to reduce it, as most game companies do, they seem to me to be likely to actively promote it in partnership with those third party merchants.  It would be a logical step up from tiered pricing and ticketed events for them to do so together with such companies.

OMG, in that last massive post I totally forgot to mention this.  If they don't plain condone it, then they certainly turn a blind eye to it.  "RMTs"(AKA "Real Money Transactions") as Square Enix has dubbed them.  DR has way to many "Uber Noobs" who have paid up to or over $1000 in RL cash for a character up to or over level 80-100.  Just google DRSales if your curious.  Whats strange to me about this is that even though DRs economy has inflated over the years, it seems that it was actually designed to handle RMTs, where as most other game companies consider that something that destroys an economy.  But if HJ makes it out the door, will it become known as plat farmer paradise?  Totally agree with you here.

  I do hope I'm wrong about HJ being vaporware and that you are right.  The game itself, in concept is wonderful.  On that, at least, I think we can agree?

 Well said, good sir.  Its nice to come to an agreement with someone i was totally at odds with at first.  Good discussion

 

 

 

Originally posted by Geiddian

Was that detailed enough an explanation, Shadowmage? :)

wow, outstanding.

That's the kind of reporting and analysis i'd like to see from the gaming "press" itself, instead of marketing dept approved junk that passes for game news these days.

I'd like to point out that most of the historical and personnel "facts" presented in this thread are unfortunately incorrect.  For example, Steph Shaver is not an artist.  She is in fact the Lead Designer of Hero's Journey.  Likewise, Melissa Meyer was never married to David Whatley, although we did have a Melissa Whatley working for us in our Maryland office who was no relation to David.  Tom has never been the producer for Hero's Journey - he sits on the board of directors for Simutronics.  Derek Sanderson actually has not worked for us since 2000, during the time of the Hero's Journey technology prototype.  And there are other mistakes.

It should be noted that the current design and development of Hero Journey "the game" began three years ago.  During the interim 4 years the back-end technology that forms the basis of Hero Engine was in development alongside additional projects to support our existing games.  It's a mistake to think that Hero's Journey spent that time under full development, wasting time, money, and other resources - it was not.  We've been a highly productive company the entire time, even if we weren't focused on the HJ game specifically.  And I'd like to think that that time was extremely well spent, considering the positive impact that the creation of Hero Engine will have on the industry as a whole.

I'd also like to point out that you have Eric Slick and I confused.  While you may think we're both delusional, we're two separate delusional entities, not one.

Eric "Bubba" Latham
Producer, DragonRealms
Lead Design Team, Hero's Journey
Simutronics Corporation

My name is Melissa Meyer - previously Simu-Melissa here on MMORPG.com and Llearyn on Play.net.

I would like to attest that the information being provided here by Geiddian is extremely inaccurate and, further, an unfair portrayal of some very talented and hardworking people. 

David Whatley - I've always thought of David as a genius in many ways.  He's a great visionary and his attention to detail is unmatched.  While it's true that David has a beautiful car (an NSX he has lovingly cared for for about 10 years) and has dated some lovely women in his time - your portrayal is simply unjust.

Neil Harris - Once again an unfair protrayal.  Given that Neil Harris was never the voice of the company in regards to billing changes, I'm not entirely sure where you could have gotten  the impression that he is cold and uncaring.  Neil is amazingly competent, and he does everything in his power to ensure Simutronics' success.

Stephanie Shaver - Steph's an amazingly creative and fun personality, but she's not an artist.  She's a designer.

Tom Zelinski - Agreed, he's a great guy.  But he was never the producer of Hero's Journey.

Derek Sanderson - Derek was no longer working at Simutronics in 2002.

Eric "Bubba" Latham vs Eric Slick - I count myself fortunate to have had the opportunity to work with these two.  Eric Slick was the first producer of DragonRealms and Eric Latham was the second (and current producer of DragonRealms.)  However Eric Latham (Bubba) was never the Producer of Hero's Journey.

Finally, while I count myself lucky to have had a great friendship with David Whatley (and with many of the other people you've mentioned) I have never been married to David, nor have I been in any kind of romantic relationship with him.  I started my career as a GM, and over 11 years I worked my way up to Producer.  There is no explanation to be had there other than hard work and dedication.

Further, while I do work for another company now, I do not work for NCSoft.

Folks, please don't listen to Geiddian.  He is making liberal use of misinformation and half-truths in order to decieve you.

And my name is Mike McInnis.

I was one of the GMs that Trag err Geiddian is speaking of.  I stopped working for them when I started having problems with my eyes, and disagreed with the direction some of the game mechanics were taking, so if anything I might have an axe to grind.  Melissa was the person who let me go.

You need to know that the people in the upper management of the Gemstone game (some of which Trag is slandering here) are very dedicated and creative people.  I'm 44 years old, and I run a team of Engineers in my real job, so I have a decent amount of experience with what it takes to lead people, and get things done, and I'd work for Melissa again in a moment.  The crap that was written about the upper management is written by someone with an axe to grind.  The worst part of the posts are they are plainly incorrect.  He has his names wrong, as well as dates, and actions. 

I would accept his comments on the inner workings of Simutronics with a VERY big grain of salt.

 

As for Hero's Journey, their engine was demoed at the last Simucon that I attended and it was very clean and very interesting.  The team that they pulled together included some of the best GMs of their text games for mechanics and roleplaying aspects.  I don't know if HJ is indeed vaporware as I no longer have any connection with Simutronics at all, but I do hope that the people working the development manage to put out a game that do their text based games justice.

And Trag, if you are going to talk crap about someone, specifically about someone I consider a friend, then at the very least try to make sure some of it is true.

And just think, a couple days ago, I was watching a political program and wondering how you were doing.

Wish I hadn't found out.

Pin (The Bloody Clans)

Once

Misdy Meanor

Arma Geddon

Ughsplat Kobold-Squisher

GM Bhamma

All in Gemstone 3 and 4

This is indeed a very interesting thread!
In both good and bad ways...
It's funny to read scandals and crap about people you don't know, but not very funny to read how it can (and probably did) turn out bad...


The sad thing is that it takes this kind of crap talk to get former and current(?) simutronics employees talk about the the HJ game.
It is a sad fact that the "silence" surrounding the game is worrying, and to hear that its still under development and perhaps will see a releaseday is comforting. But to hear it in a context of crap(?)talk is scary.

If the Simutronic people (former and current) didn't care about the HJ fanbase, they wouldn't care about the craptalk they did deny and corrected above, but still.. If they really cared they would inform the fanbase about the progress of the game in a rate that didn't keep it a the vapourware status among the fans.

Lets hope Simutronics can and will get out in public more often and not only when someone shait on their desk...

I am just guessing, but I expect that Simutronics people that responded did so because someone was making some wild (and false) accusations about people they have worked with for a very long time and consider friends.

PinTBC

Geiddian will be lucky if he isn't sued for slander and defimation of character. Regardless if what he said is true or not, and obviously it isn't, there is just no reason for that information to be put out in the public this way. That's a lawsuit, or five, waiting to happen.

Just because it's on a message board, doesn't mean they can't track you down for libel.

At any rate.... I, too, am quite worried about the lack of game information being presented. I try to keep an open mind and positive outlook. I am trying to focus on a game I've played for 2-3 years now (FFXI) and really trying to not start any new games. I just know if I switch to something else, they'll announce beta for HJ. I've been waiting for this project for quite a while and I can only hope that somebody in the Simutronics camp still cares about me as an avid player of their games and fan of their imaginative work.

Please try to understand that Simutronics has a reputation as a company with poor weight being their promices. There may be good reasons, I'm sure, but if you want to compete with the big dogs, you have to do things. Things that to you, may be spectacular, but to other companies is just another day of work. You don't see most of the big companies with as poor of a reputation as Simutronics. Simutronics has an unsurpassed reputation with quality and attention to detail... They also have an unsurpassed reputation with regards to promice keeping and keeping their players in some sort of loop... One is just on the other side of the scale than the other.

 

  Yeah, yeah.  I got a few things wrong and you didn't answer any of the questions posed by me or others about the game itself.  That's telling, don't you think?

So is that the only response we get from Simu?

Supposedly I have been on the beta list for about a year now.  I keep hoping to see some progress from the game, because like many others on this thread, this is the only game I am waiting for.  The lack of current information is disturbing to say the least.  I havent heard anything real about the game for months, and the only thing that brings HJ people to the boards is a personal attack, and then the only response is to defend themselves?  What about the game?  What about the piracy and completely unfair teired pricing?

I used to play DR, and loved the game.  I have been waiting years for a graphical MMO that has some real substance.  I keep hoping that eventually a real "RPers" game will make it to market.  I was in on the beta testing for Wish, and loved the concept.  HJ promises a lot of things that Wish tried to incorporate.  However it is very disconcerting to be left in the dark by a company that has the only promising game.

The personal attacks, founded or not, are only one part of the arguments being made here.  Are the people waiting for a real RP MMO going to be raped by teired pricing?  Will Simu promote bots and farmers and third party con artists?  Will I be expected to pay MY real money just to be able to compete with everyone else in a GAME?  Will this game every see the light of day?  What is the real hangup?  Like say I supposedly received a beta slot, although Simu hasnt bother to confirm it.  When are we going to get more then a nice puff of hot air on the back side?

Funny how Ged played dragonrealms in 1994 when it wasn't even released until '96 and was never available on GEine since gemstone was moved to AOL in 1995. 

That said,  Simu has always been like this, anyone that has played any of their games for an extended period of time knows they're tight-lipped.  You'd also know that they deliver what they say they're going to and it's of the highest quality when it's done.

Originally posted by Xaylin

Funny how Ged played dragonrealms in 1994 when it wasn't even released until '96 and was never available on GEine since gemstone was moved to AOL in 1995. 

That said,  Simu has always been like this, anyone that has played any of their games for an extended period of time knows they're tight-lipped.  You'd also know that they deliver what they say they're going to and it's of the highest quality when it's done.

Actually, you’re a bit off as well Xaylin.  I’m just niggling the details here though and agree with the spirit of your post, if I perceived it correctly.  Geiddian didn’t just ‘get a few things wrong’, but other responses have pretty well cleared that up I think.

Everyone who has been around Simutronics a while and is able to pick up on subtle clues and read between the lines knows the uber well-kept secret that Eric Slick doesn’t really exist and is just another disguise worn by Bubba who is really just yet another disguise of his true identity as a time-traveling ancient king from around 1000 BC.  You think we wouldn’t have figured it out from your Simu forums handle Bubba?  Ha! 

Why do you think David Whatley has been harboring him all these years?  It’s because he’s RICH!  Bubba/King Solomon, that is!  Big time rich!  That’s the real funding power behind Simutronics, but they have to be really careful about it.  I mean…come on; we’re talking about tons and tons of treasure here!  There was a movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076270/) about it for crying out loud! 

Uh…ahem.

Stop reading here if you’re not interested in brief historical details and other stuff.

Gemstone never ‘moved’ to AOL, it just became available on AOL.  DragonRealms was available on GEnie first while still in Beta, and later AOL staffers were allowed in as ‘closed beta’ testers before the rest of AOL and other services were given access.  Then the game was launched live.  I can’t recall how much longer it was available on GEnie after that because that is when I finally cancelled my account there and starting using AOL full time until the Simu move to play.net.  My recollection is that both Gemstone and DragonRealms were available there almost right up to the bitter end before the lights finally went out on GEnie.

What in God's Name are you:

1: Smoking
2: Drinking
3: Snorting
4: Popping
5: Injecting, or:
6: Eating the dog's and/or cat's wet & dry food?

The World wants to know...

Originally posted by Maxximus

What in God's Name are you:

1: Smoking
2: Drinking
3: Snorting
4: Popping
5: Injecting, or:
6: Eating the dog's and/or cat's wet & dry food?

The World wants to know...

 

Hey, his theories make more sense than some of these other things that have been said. ;)

The thing is this:

 

Most of the folks who showed up to tell Geddian that he didn't know what he was talking about are no longer associated with Simutronics.  Simu-Solomon was the only responder that I can remember that is still tied into the game.

Now, why doesn't Simu come to this board and discuss what is happening with their product?

Don't know, but I do know that if I were waiting anxiously for the release, I would do what I could to visit the Simutronics bulletin board dedicated to HJ.  I wouldn't be trying to get my information from soem third party site (even as good a third party site as this one).  I've seen posts by Altiron in the other folder in this area speaking of his plans, and it is good that he is still hooked into the project.

Just be careful listening to people with an axe to grind, they tend to remember things oddly, and make things up to support the point they want to make.

PinTBC

Originally posted by MasterChaos

The personal attacks, founded or not, are only one part of the arguments being made here.  Are the people waiting for a real RP MMO going to be raped by teired pricing?  Will Simu promote bots and farmers and third party con artists?  Will I be expected to pay MY real money just to be able to compete with everyone else in a GAME?  Will this game every see the light of day?  What is the real hangup?  Like say I supposedly received a beta slot, although Simu hasnt bother to confirm it.  When are we going to get more then a nice puff of hot air on the back side?

 

Thought it would be fun to respond to this..  Maybe give you guys a different view.

1) Are the people waiting for a RP MMO going to be raped by tiered pricing?

I played and GMed in the Gemstone game that Simutronics offers.  It was a small game by MMO standards and I would hazard a guess that the number of accounts is very much less than at the time EQ, or any of the widely popular MMOs.  The support for this game far outshined any graphical game I've ever played.  I'd bet that player to GM ratio was at least ten times better than any other game out there.  The company needed to find ways to raise operating cash at some level (remember as much as anyone hates to admit it, if there is no profit being made, the game will not exist long), and one of the things they did was to set up a multiple tiered pricing system.  I think it was one of the first such systems in the industry.  Some people hated it, and some people loved it. 

It allowed the company to charge for things that were nice to haves, not absolutely essentials.   For the entire time I played, and the tiered pricing system was in effect, people who were paying basic complained about things that they didn't get, while people paying the extra complained that they didn't get enough.  That in itself tells me that Simu balanced it pretty well, and nothing stopped people from paying the other rate if they truly felt that they were cheated at the rate they were paying. (It may have changed since, but I hope not) when I was involved there was truly very little difference between the basic and the premium.  There were no unique hunting areas, or incredibly powerful weaponry etc..  Most of the special events were geared to develop fluff, and things that could personalize a character.

The other option would have been to set a single price probably somewhere in the middle of the two, which certainly takes care of the tiered pricing, but doesn't give a person the option to just pay less for the basic rate.

They also had special pay events where anyone could go and various thing swere done.  These events took a large amount of effort to plan and develop, and the company tried to cover the development costs with the pay event sticker..  Again the player could choose whether to attend or not to attend. 

Tiered pricing was not the evil thing that people are making it sound like.

2) Will Simu promote Bots and farmers and third party con artists?

Funny thing about that, people are stupid.  Let me rephrase that..  People are VERY stupid.  I can't tell you how many times that I was summoned as a GM by someone who bought a 'mystery backpack' that was 'guarenteed' to hold at least 1000 silvers worth of equipment only to find it empty.  Even after we posted specifically that anyone buying something like that was on their own people still bought the things.  And the GMs were accused of being uncaring, and supporting con artists.  By the way, one of the small pleasures I had as a GM was hunting down those con artists, and explaining to them why I was locking them out.

In terms of Bots, when I was GM, Simutronics aggressively persued people scripting through areas.  The players complained alot about how we ignored them, but there were always problems proving someone was scripting.  Krash, and Khaledon were very good at chasing these folks down, but they couldn't be on 24/7, and even with the coverage we did have, it was almost impossible to police the no scripting policy.  More than one player lost significant amounts of EXP when they were caught.

Farming was possible in Gemstone because there was no limit on the treasure drops on creatures below your level, and I would hope that would be taken in to account in the design of Hero's Journey.

3) Will I be expected to pay my real money just to be able to compete with everyone else in a game?

Depends on what sort of events they choose, but as I said, if it is left to the player to decide what they want to pay for, how is this bad?  After I stopped GMing, I kept my basic account for a couple years, and never once felt like I was missing anything.  I did find it humorous to read posts on the boards by people bemoaning how they felt cheated by not being able to attend a merchant event, turn around the next week and sell all kinds of merchant loot at seriously marked up prices.  Or when I was a GM, I'd alter a piece of equipment for someone only to watch them leave my shop and run out trying to sell the item for silvers.

If you are racing to the end, or trying to be 'King of power'  then I guess I can't help you.  but I will tell you that I would rather you pay for the extra equipment that you think you need rather than raise my price for something that I don't particularly care for.

4) The rest..

Don't know if it will see the light of day as I haven't seriously looked for it in quite a while now, but if I were really looking for it, I'd haunt the Simu board and not this one.  By the way, before you call me a Fanboi for Simutronics, I got in a decent amount of troubles on their bulletin board system for expressing exactly what I thought.  I hold no love for the company, I do however hate to see things blown way out of proportion, or good people insulted for no reason.

PinTBC