Originally posted by Vortex500

First off, Star Wars Galaxies is already a whole lot of fun for a whole lot of people. And it was very successful.

You yourself said you were the cheerleader for the nge. You said that you kept telling the powers that be that "we can do this".

No, I did not. I wasn't writing about the NGE, which is a massive number of changes. I never said that, others have said it about me.

The context in which the line you're taking to mean "I cheer-led the NGE" was first, not about "the NGE", it was about one of the changes which went in with all the rest of the NGE changes.. Second, the statement itself was my attempt to avoid taking credit for the combat interface style. Since I wasn't the one who made it, I didn't want co-worker s (any of them), reading my blog and thinking I was taking credit for their work. I designed and implemented very little of anything in the NGE, and I didn't want that blog post to come off as my taking credit for it all.

Well, no worries there. Turns out no one actually wanted credit for it.

But if you're going to tell people what I did and what I said, you could at least base it on my posts, rather than other peoples' posts about what they think my post said.

Originally posted by Obee

Because many players liked the deves they think "up and quit" and have your blog post where you say you had to convince "The Man" that the NGE combat system was too fun not to implement that makes them hope you were fired.

 You're the only dev who worked on part of the NGE that has admitted to having a role in it (and you're blog post made it seem like you were gung ho about the NGE, wether you intended it to or not).

Originally posted by sempiternal

Originally posted by Vortex500

First off, Star Wars Galaxies is already a whole lot of fun for a whole lot of people. And it was very successful.

Next time keep your fat fingers for your own enjoyment rather than sticking them into than something that isn't broke, J.Freeman.

Originally posted by Dundee
I'm very sorry for how that sounds.

It was written in response to some negative things non-SWG players were saying about Raph.

I know I came off sounding like I was taking credit for the NGE in a "I didn't do it, wink wink, nudge nudge" sort of way, but I was being literal there. It sounds like I "pushed it through", but again, I was being literal, not ironic, in reassuring that just one specific thing - clicky combat interface - was possible to do on a live server.. It sounds like I was talking about the entire NGE and every change in it, but I was speaking of just one specific thing: the clicky combat interface, which I found more fun than CU. I'll admit, I disliked CU, and I liked clicking to shoot the thing I clicked. I have also been told it sounds like I was saying that I myself believed that "removing the Raph" would make SWG better, but I wrote this as a response to people who were saying that. A retort. Not to say that myself.

Please don't take this to mean that I designed the NGE, pushed it all the way up to executives in both SOE and LEC, railroaded or bedaffled with bunkum 'til they were on board the crazy-train with me (I really don't have that sort of personality), then implemented it on my own computer and surprised the players with it out of wicked spite.

I do sincerely apologize for how insensitive this post was for you.

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A previous reply:

You yourself said you were the cheerleader for the nge. You said that you kept telling the powers that be that "we can do this".

No, I did not. I wasn't writing about the NGE, which is a massive number of changes. I never said that, others have said it about me.

The context in which the line you're taking to mean "I cheer-led the NGE" was first, not about "the NGE", it was about one of the changes which went in with all the rest of the NGE changes.. Second, the statement itself was my attempt to avoid taking credit for the combat interface style. Since I wasn't the one who made it, I didn't want co-worker s (any of them), reading my blog and thinking I was taking credit for their work. I designed and implemented very little of anything in the NGE, and I didn't want that blog post to come off as my taking credit for it all.

Well, no worries there. Turns out no one actually wanted credit for it.

But if you're going to tell people what I did and what I said, you could at least base it on my posts, rather than other peoples' posts about what they think my post said.

Originally posted by Obee

Because many players liked the deves they think "up and quit" and have your blog post where you say you had to convince "The Man" that the NGE combat system was too fun not to implement that makes them hope you were fired.

Argh. I hate to reiterate (frequently) that it was possible. They had a hard time believing we could do that combat system with multiple players and multiple opponents that fast on a live server (And I think the speed even got toned down a bit to reduce suckage from the ridiculous rate that it started at). Also I exaggerated, when I said, "I had to say this about forty times a day for two months". It was much less than that.

 You're the only dev who worked on part of the NGE that has admitted to having a role in it (and you're blog post made it seem like you were gung ho about the NGE, wether you intended it to or not).

I was gung-ho about the combat system, and tried to be gung-ho about everything else (more discreetly). It's part of the job.

But the point of that blog update was to criticize some folk who'd been implying the changes were SWG team, SOE exec's and LA's way of saying, "Removing the Raph will make the game fun."

The point of the update was right at the end: "So I think these sorts of remarks are a little inaccurate, a tiny bit irksome, pretty unfair."

* fps = first person shooter ... tps = third person shooter

i'll tell you .... the FPS/TPS " clicky" combat engine is what made me leave the game ...

if i wanted to play an FPS/TPS game id play one with PRECISE controls .. one that is as close to perfection as i can find .. something like half-life, battlefront, jedi academy,  ect... ..SWG became a half-assed FPS/TPS game that didnt even play as well as phantasy star online for dreamcast, which was made years before SWG.. ...controls were jerky .. animations at the NGE's onset were non-existent ... and strategy of old thrown out the window .... it was sub-par for the style it was trying to adopt ...

player housing .. professions ... the economy .. all good stuff which COMPLIMENT combat ....but NOT the core of the game...the CORE of every video game ... what its remembered for ... what its style becomes to be known as ... is the way you do battle, defeat foes, and advance ... whether that game be street fighter ..super mario ... or star war galaxies ...

the best way i can explain this is by using one of my all time favorite games for comparison...Street fighter  ... you know how many revisions there are to that game? about 20 ... which i can name if need be ... now one can ask themselves with ALL of the clone 2d fighters out there ... samurai showdown, king of fighters, fata fury ... ect.. why or HOW did street fighter  end up with 20 revisions and ultimately stay more popular than the rest?  Because the CORE of the game was never changed ... things were added ... newer more complex levels of mechanics were added ... but the CORE of the game, its combat engine was never changed .. just improved upon ... people bought street fighter .. and played street fighter KNOWING what they were buying ... they WANTED that same combat engine ...

i Bought the game(SWG) knowing the type of combat it would have ... i played the game and got used to the type of combat it had... and then ... it became a different game ...

why would i play a wannabe street fighter clone with less precise timing and hit mechanics when i could just go to the source, the real deal ...

it may be fashionable these days for mmo's to be FPS or TPS ... but ill tell you the brunt of the mmo players dont play MMO to play an FPS game ... any MMORPG that does adopt a quicker battle engine similar to battlefront ect... or NGE, .. BETTER make it top notch and comparable to other action games out there .. cuz gamers will not forgive a less than stellar engine just because its an " mmo"

and when i say engine i mean combat mechanics

So how did

"We can't do it.

We shouldn't do it."

Turn into 'This is going live as soon as we get done billing the current players for the expansion that had brand new creature handler stuff in it that we are removing two weeks later'

Originally posted by Dundee

Originally posted by sempiternal

Originally posted by Vortex500

First off, Star Wars Galaxies is already a whole lot of fun for a whole lot of people. And it was very successful.

Next time keep your fat fingers for your own enjoyment rather than sticking them into than something that isn't broke, J.Freeman.

If I worked for you and you told me to do something, how would my telling you, "No!" go over?

Originally posted by Vortex500

And Fast Action Combat and the introduction of classes based on iconic Star Wars character archtypes doesn't toss-out everything Koster-esque about Galaxies. Far from it.

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by Vortex500

And Fast Action Combat and the introduction of classes based on iconic Star Wars character archtypes doesn't toss-out everything Koster-esque about Galaxies. Far from it.

"introduction of classes"  and form of  how "Fast Action Combat" finally implemented is  main reason made CU - NGE  a  failure.
Other reason is sure the feeling of  you  "lost anything" after you tried hard to progress your char.  After CU - NGE you found  yourself  "lost anything" gained in 2 years PLUS  you lost simply the "technical" (simple some things like profs  no longer existed) ability and motivation to earn back what you lost because just of  that  poorly implementation  of  "Fast Action Combat"  and "Classes".

Unlike what stated in the linked blog changing these 2 main  elements of the SWG  World  was like throwing  the vision of original developers out of  the window.

Originally posted by Kyler1138

So how did

"We can't do it.

We shouldn't do it."

Turn into 'This is going live as soon as we get done billing the current players for the expansion that had brand new creature handler stuff in it that we are removing two weeks later'

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Originally posted by Dundee

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Originally posted by Kyler1138

So how did
"We can't do it.

We shouldn't do it."
Turn into 'This is going live as soon as we get done billing the current players for the expansion that had brand new creature handler stuff in it that we are removing two weeks later'

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I don't know... those decisions aren't made by developers.

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Here is something that I have never seen asked:

Was PlanetSide originally an engine developed for SWG?

If so, then we can see from the very beginning the division of two camps within SOE. One preferred the EQ style and the other a more modern FPS style. PlanetSide for all of its shortcomings has a great interface and a combat system that supports lots and lots of players in a given area with little lag. It is a combat system looking for a game. If PlanetSide's engine were the basis for SWG from the beginning, we would not be talking in here but instead be playing the game.

Perhaps Jeff, this is what you are speaking of regarding the clicky style interface? What they gave us in SWG is an abomination, but what PlanetSide runs on is really fun, fast paced, runs great with dozens of players, and relatively easy to get back into the action upon a death...

Originally posted by kaibigan34
It would go over a hell of alot better then having you say "Yes" then it blowing it up in my face.......

I own a business. If I all of a sudden said "Hey lets stop selling fossils and sell novelty T-Shirts instead." and you said "Yes we can do that" then it backfired guess whose getting the axe? But if you said no and told me why then you would probably get a raise.

Originally posted by akevv

Here is something that I have never seen asked:

Was PlanetSide originally an engine developed for SWG?

Perhaps Jeff, this is what you are speaking of regarding the clicky style interface? What they gave us in SWG is an abomination, but what PlanetSide runs on is really fun, fast paced, runs great with dozens of players, and relatively easy to get back into the action upon a death...

Actually I disliked the clicky combat system almost as bad as the rest of the NGE.

It was way too fast, and too uncomfortable to play in long sessions. This is why I don't think a MMOFPS will ever be more than a niche.

ehhh jeff, speaking from a marketing kinda view, if a product is in the shitter, and only your real loyal customers stay, its never alright to sacrifice them.. it woulda alot better (and i mean alot) if you just shut the game down. you dont ever want to alienate your self from your loyal customers, becaues they are the ones that is easiest to transfer over to another product (Eq2, planetside etc etc...).
 you dont ever say "we dont care if we loose some of the veterans, if we MABY can get 10 times as many new customers".
 If a product has low and stil declining market share, and it is a small share of your company (SOE), you NEVER sacrifice your loyal veteran customers on a chance, YOU SHUT THE PRODUCT DOWN.. shit i learned this my 1st year at Business akademy.. no wonder Sonys market share is declining....

You guys should really know something about simple marketing,
http://www.brs-inc.com/models/model14.asp <---- basic Bosten model
Dogs (like you clame SWG was)
Low growth
Low share
Business is a cash trap.

• focus on short term

• avoid risky project

• limited future
  kk focus on short them, limited future and avoid risky projects, kinda hate to brake it to you, the neg WAS a risky project, and you got your hands burned.. now you have a 100k+ players that HATE (and mean that in the strongest way) SOE... if you just had shut it down, no one woulda hated soe. yea they would been unhappy but not hated. Look at turbine, they shutdown ac2 (also played that :-)), people where saddened, but they wherent mad at the company. many of their ex players play ac (the predecessors is still alive and kicking) and D&D online.

  Of cause SOE's main goal should be to make money, they are company, but then try that. the NEG goes against every marketing model that exists! That you try and claim the NEG was for to make more money, REALLLY worries me, because then SOE really gotta fire some of its employees, if they think that they can make money by alienating their customers, because they want to try a risky project with a dying product.... i mean... reallly.. Education my friend.. try it..

• 
  
  
  Me personally i have never felt this betrayed, iv personally taken the stand that i will never buy another product in my life that is just a little affiliated with sony (not just Sony Online Entertainment), no matter if its a CD-R, or a game.

Its funny, before SOE just pissed me off as a gamer, now they also pissed my of as a capitalist, and a salesman..

Originally posted by tfwarlord
ehhh jeff, speaking from a marketing kinda view, if a product is in the shitter, and only your real loyal customers stay, its never alright to sacrifice them.. it woulda alot better (and i mean alot) if you just shut the game down. you dont ever want to alienate your self from your loyal customers, becaues they are the ones that is easiest to transfer over to another product (Eq2, planetside etc etc...).
 you dont ever say "we dont care if we loose some of the veterans, if we MABY can get 10 times as many new customers".
 If a product has low and stil declining market share, and it is a small share of your company (SOE), you NEVER sacrifice your loyal veteran customers on a chance, YOU SHUT THE PRODUCT DOWN.. shit i learned this my 1st year at Business akademy.. no wonder Sonys market share is declining....

Me personally i have never feelt this betrayed, iv personally taken the stand that i will never buy another product in my life that is just alittle affiliated with sony (not just Sony Online Entertainment), no matter if its a CD-R, og a game.

You guys should really know something about simple marketing,

the amount of MMO's that go thru sony's hands , and they feel they had the right to change one two years in ??

if anything , its that koster experience that all us refuges are trawling the internet searching for , it was his idea's that got all the subs in the first place , it was ignorant of sony to think its customers would stay around after the defacing of there beloved game .

you killed the game when you killed crafters in the CU imo . rather than just adding more looted components for the crafters to use , you made them worthless by handing out better rewards than they could make .

surely if the accountants were on your back , you would be best trying to make the old game better , rather than scrap it and make a new game ? instead of fixing what was broke , you threw it out and took and even bigger chance on a game none of your subscribers had any interest in playing , we were there for a worldy rpg ffs .

i dont wanna come off to bitter here (altho i probably am) , i respect the fact you have had the arse to chat about it ,

PS . What are you working on now jeff? i can only imagine this whole experience has taught you alot , be nice to see what you have learned put into practice .

Originally posted by batgirl

PS . What are you working on now jeff? i can only imagine this whole experience has taught you alot , be nice to see what you have learned put into practice .