Originally posted by Fishermage

It all comes down in this case to what would be called the reasonable person standard. One could very easily argue that SOE went far beyond what a reasonable person would expect in terms of gameplay changes. The only problem that follows is the asessment of damages, which at most would be unrefunded subscription fees. I would bet even money a class action suit could win all that back. That's NOT BIG money, so what law firm would take it in hopes of merely getting a fraction of that in fees? I think "we" could win the class action lawsuit, but since we certaily couldn't claim any BIG MONEY, like through pain and suffering and/or undue health effects or any of the things that make class action suits viable, we lose. And to answer the neverending question: why did they do it? To cut costs, and to just barely fulfill thei contractual obligations to LEC for the license, while at the same time slash development costs. The rest was "selling it" to LA and the marketing peeps, in other words, bullspit. That is the only reason they would conceivably make such an obviously stupid move. They then poured money into EQ2 and into EQ1 to make those games better, and they increased in subs while SWG crashed. They basically wanted to get out of this high cost project and not let anyone else have it at the same time. Pretty simple, really, and typical of SONY.

Originally posted by therain93

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo

Thats why it comes down to us trolls.  We have to spread the word when a MMORPG company acts in a manner that is morally unethical but legally allowed.  If we can't sue them or receive justice, then we should destroy their Public Relations for getting away with unethical behavior.

1) Don't give trolls that much credit -- an outraged consumer base is well within its rights to speak out and it has.  Vote with your wallet and spread the word.  Marketing 101 says that for every bad experience a customer has, s/he will tell 7 people.  For every good one, they tell 3 people.

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo

It is a war, between Companies and Customers, each wants to control the other.  Well MMORPGs are a service industry and in a service industry you bend to the customer. 

2) You are correct, and ultimately customers do have the power, especially when it come to leisure goods. BUT, academically speaking, the fact is that there does exist such a thing as the "bad customer".  "Bad customers" sap resources that can be better spent elsewhere and a company has every right to refuse them. "The customer is always right" does not always apply but companies need to weight that risk and act appropriately.  Companies can also choose who they want to target their goods and services for, again, at their own peril.

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo 
These EULAs are no longer going to be used as "U SIGNED A EULA N00B" propaganda.  It's time for the customer to realize that we were forced to sign a EULA and entered a contract in distress (Unfortunately not the legal definition, but the real definition only).  We are forced with the options, "SIGN OR YOU CAN'T PLAY BITCH!"

3) Your rallying cry is total flame bait....we're talking about a game here.  No one holds a gun to the customer's head, the customer is never in "distress".  As dramatic as you want to make it sound, phrasing the EULA as "SIGN OR YOU CAN'T PLAY BITCH" adds no power as much as you want it to seem like coercion.   You want to use their service, you abide by their rules.  You want to rent this apartment, you abide by the landlord's terms of use as outlined in the lease. 

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo 
Well we have to give the MMORPG providers the options "SERVE US, OR NEVER SEE US AGAIN BITCH!"

4) Um, we already do so everyday -- it's called free trade markets.  Welcome to the economy.....

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Originally posted by Fishermage

It all comes down in this case to what would be called the reasonable person standard. One could very easily argue that SOE went far beyond what a reasonable person would expect in terms of gameplay changes. The only problem that follows is the asessment of damages, which at most would be unrefunded subscription fees. I would bet even money a class action suit could win all that back. That's NOT BIG money, so what law firm would take it in hopes of merely getting a fraction of that in fees? I think "we" could win the class action lawsuit, but since we certaily couldn't claim any BIG MONEY, like through pain and suffering and/or undue health effects or any of the things that make class action suits viable, we lose. And to answer the neverending question: why did they do it? To cut costs, and to just barely fulfill thei contractual obligations to LEC for the license, while at the same time slash development costs. The rest was "selling it" to LA and the marketing peeps, in other words, bullspit. That is the only reason they would conceivably make such an obviously stupid move. They then poured money into EQ2 and into EQ1 to make those games better, and they increased in subs while SWG crashed. They basically wanted to get out of this high cost project and not let anyone else have it at the same time. Pretty simple, really, and typical of SONY.

Thats the only logical explanation. But, in order to do that, it means they purposely bombed the game, doesnt it?

[quote]Originally posted by Fishermage
[b][quote]Originally posted by Malickiebloo

It all comes down in this case to what would be called the reasonable person standard. One could very easily argue that SOE went far beyond what a reasonable person would expect in terms of gameplay changes. The only problem that follows is the asessment of damages, which at most would be unrefunded subscription fees. I would bet even money a class action suit could win all that back.

That's NOT BIG money, so what law firm would take it in hopes of merely getting a fraction of that in fees? I think "we" could win the class action lawsuit, but since we certaily couldn't claim any BIG MONEY, like through pain and suffering and/or undue health effects or any of the things that make class action suits viable, we lose.

And to answer the neverending question: why did they do it? To cut costs, and to just barely fulfill thei contractual obligations to LEC for the license, while at the same time slash development costs. The rest was "selling it" to LA and the marketing peeps, in other words, bullspit. That is the only reason they would conceivably make such an obviously stupid move.

They then poured money into EQ2 and into EQ1 to make those games better, and they increased in subs while SWG crashed. They basically wanted to get out of this high cost project and not let anyone else have it at the same time. Pretty simple, really, and typical of SONY.[/b][/quote]

The actual damages could be quite a bit more than that. It could and should be argued that not only are we due back the sub fees prepaid after 11/15/2005, but that SWG players, as a class, would be entitled to a refund of the sub fees paid from the moment they decided to put development into the NGE while still publically maintaining the "CU is here to stay" face.

That is major money. Hell, even one month worth of sub fees (200K*14.99) is enough cash.

Plus, throw in the fact that they likely defrauded us (interstate wire fraud) as well and you get into the realm of treble damages, meaning we could be awarded TRIPLE that amount as a penalty.

I say that a class action suit ask for these reasonable things:

1. Attorney's fees (a must if you want representation)

2. Option for those who had prepaid time prior to the NGE announcement that ran on after it to be refunded, or to exchange it for free time on a pre-NGE server.

3. Require that they reinstate Pre-NGE to as many servers as population demand dictates, to maintain them at least as long as they keep the NGE and SWG as a whole going, and to put development into it at the same proportion they do the NGE servers based on what they normally spend per subscriber dollar.

4. Require that they make good on the revamps promised to Pre-NGE that they were discussing prior to the NGE.

---

Originally posted by Fishermage

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Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

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Originally posted by Fishermage

It all comes down in this case to what would be called the reasonable person standard. One could very easily argue that SOE went far beyond what a reasonable person would expect in terms of gameplay changes. The only problem that follows is the asessment of damages, which at most would be unrefunded subscription fees. I would bet even money a class action suit could win all that back. That's NOT BIG money, so what law firm would take it in hopes of merely getting a fraction of that in fees? I think "we" could win the class action lawsuit, but since we certaily couldn't claim any BIG MONEY, like through pain and suffering and/or undue health effects or any of the things that make class action suits viable, we lose. And to answer the neverending question: why did they do it? To cut costs, and to just barely fulfill thei contractual obligations to LEC for the license, while at the same time slash development costs. The rest was "selling it" to LA and the marketing peeps, in other words, bullspit. That is the only reason they would conceivably make such an obviously stupid move. They then poured money into EQ2 and into EQ1 to make those games better, and they increased in subs while SWG crashed. They basically wanted to get out of this high cost project and not let anyone else have it at the same time. Pretty simple, really, and typical of SONY.

---

Thats the only logical explanation. But, in order to do that, it means they purposely bombed the game, doesnt it?

---

Or they purposely stopped giving a damn about it.

---

No, that they purposely bombed the EXISTING CUSTOMERS without regard to representations made in public ("Cu is here to stay") while continuing to extract money from them based on fraud to fund an unprecedented live MMO gameplay change designed to appeal to a completely DIFFERENT customer base.

That is where I believe SOE/LEC management has possibly committed a crime with regard to how they developed the NGE in secret while publically pretending to be sticking with the CU.

Originally posted by Wildcat84

[quote]Originally posted by Fishermage
[b][quote]Originally posted by Malickiebloo

It all comes down in this case to what would be called the reasonable person standard. One could very easily argue that SOE went far beyond what a reasonable person would expect in terms of gameplay changes. The only problem that follows is the asessment of damages, which at most would be unrefunded subscription fees. I would bet even money a class action suit could win all that back.

That's NOT BIG money, so what law firm would take it in hopes of merely getting a fraction of that in fees? I think "we" could win the class action lawsuit, but since we certaily couldn't claim any BIG MONEY, like through pain and suffering and/or undue health effects or any of the things that make class action suits viable, we lose.

And to answer the neverending question: why did they do it? To cut costs, and to just barely fulfill thei contractual obligations to LEC for the license, while at the same time slash development costs. The rest was "selling it" to LA and the marketing peeps, in other words, bullspit. That is the only reason they would conceivably make such an obviously stupid move.

They then poured money into EQ2 and into EQ1 to make those games better, and they increased in subs while SWG crashed. They basically wanted to get out of this high cost project and not let anyone else have it at the same time. Pretty simple, really, and typical of SONY.[/b][/quote]

The actual damages could be quite a bit more than that. It could and should be argued that not only are we due back the sub fees prepaid after 11/15/2005, but that SWG players, as a class, would be entitled to a refund of the sub fees paid from the moment they decided to put development into the NGE while still publically maintaining the "CU is here to stay" face.

That is major money. Hell, even one month worth of sub fees (200K*14.99) is enough cash.

Plus, throw in the fact that they likely defrauded us (interstate wire fraud) as well and you get into the realm of treble damages, meaning we could be awarded TRIPLE that amount as a penalty.

I say that a class action suit ask for these reasonable things:

1. Attorney's fees (a must if you want representation)

2. Option for those who had prepaid time prior to the NGE announcement that ran on after it to be refunded, or to exchange it for free time on a pre-NGE server.

3. Require that they reinstate Pre-NGE to as many servers as population demand dictates, to maintain them at least as long as they keep the NGE and SWG as a whole going, and to put development into it at the same proportion they do the NGE servers based on what they normally spend per subscriber dollar.

4. Require that they make good on the revamps promised to Pre-NGE that they were discussing prior to the NGE.

Originally posted by Wildcat84

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Originally posted by Fishermage

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Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

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Originally posted by Fishermage

It all comes down in this case to what would be called the reasonable person standard. One could very easily argue that SOE went far beyond what a reasonable person would expect in terms of gameplay changes. The only problem that follows is the asessment of damages, which at most would be unrefunded subscription fees. I would bet even money a class action suit could win all that back. That's NOT BIG money, so what law firm would take it in hopes of merely getting a fraction of that in fees? I think "we" could win the class action lawsuit, but since we certaily couldn't claim any BIG MONEY, like through pain and suffering and/or undue health effects or any of the things that make class action suits viable, we lose. And to answer the neverending question: why did they do it? To cut costs, and to just barely fulfill thei contractual obligations to LEC for the license, while at the same time slash development costs. The rest was "selling it" to LA and the marketing peeps, in other words, bullspit. That is the only reason they would conceivably make such an obviously stupid move. They then poured money into EQ2 and into EQ1 to make those games better, and they increased in subs while SWG crashed. They basically wanted to get out of this high cost project and not let anyone else have it at the same time. Pretty simple, really, and typical of SONY.

---

Thats the only logical explanation. But, in order to do that, it means they purposely bombed the game, doesnt it?

---

Or they purposely stopped giving a damn about it.

---

No, that they purposely bombed the EXISTING CUSTOMERS without regard to representations made in public ("Cu is here to stay") while continuing to extract money from them based on fraud to fund an unprecedented live MMO gameplay change designed to appeal to a completely DIFFERENT customer base.

That is where I believe SOE/LEC management has possibly committed a crime with regard to how they developed the NGE in secret while publically pretending to be sticking with the CU.

Originally posted by AfroPuff

Quite a few people have chimed in here with "Here's why they did it . . ."  

 We all know why they did it - they became convinced that millions of people would line up play a simpler game.  That misses the point of Fikus's question in his OP.  That question is:

Why did go through with it despite the plain truth that the quality of the NGE was very, very Poor?

I can only imagine a few reasons. My musings, nothing more. 

1. The decision makers that made the "GO" call were so removed that they actually didn't know what state the NGE was in.

2. The decision makers did know how poor the quality was, but were for some reason convinced that they could get it into adequate shape very quickly before the market responded to the poorness in quality.

My money is on number 2. There is some evidence available on the web that the management cultures at both SOE and LEC place a premimum on timeliness over product quality. Further, looking into the software devlopment histories of both organizations reveals that indeed, both organizations have demonstrated a pattern of releasing poor quality or plainly incomplete software for gaming consumption. It may also be that team charged with development of the NGE inadvertently or intentionally misrepresented 1. the state of readiness of the NGE, and/or  2. overstated the team's ability to get the NGE into readiness post launch, to the decision makers who had to make the decision to go with the NGE.

It boils down to this:

They thought they could get away with it.  That's why the NGE was released,  even though they new it sucked.

 

Hmm..that  makes some sense too. /ponder

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Originally posted by therain93

Originally posted by Malickiebloo
I agree with everything you are saying , But as gamers we know the work we put in is more than just playing a videogame . We also know how attached we can become to these products . The problem is outside of us , The world is oblivious to these things . Judges and lawyers look at this as nothing more than entertainment . Therefor they would be most likely to side with the corporations .

How exactly is playing an mmorpg not "leisure" though?  What exactly is "the world oblivious" to?  Please explain. 

What makes your time playing SWG any different from watching tivo or swing dancing on a friday night with all the pretty girls? How is it different from reading a book as you cited later on?  Why is playing an mmorpg "work" and no other hobby is? Are  you paying for the necessities of life with all of this "work"?  Doubtfully.  What  you did was pay a bit up front to get access to some form of entertainment and you're actively using it.  You're still at the mercy of the "host", whether it is a corporation, a dj or an author if they decide to change any aspects....

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo

Thats why it comes down to us trolls.  We have to spread the word when a MMORPG company acts in a manner that is morally unethical but legally allowed.  If we can't sue them or receive justice, then we should destroy their Public Relations for getting away with unethical behavior.

The eventual goal should be moral management enforced by the danger of upsetting the masses

It is a war, between Companies and Customers, each wants to control the other.  Well MMORPGs are a service industry and in a service industry you bend to the customer.  These EULAs are no longer going to be used as "U SIGNED A EULA N00B" propaganda.  It's time for the customer to realize that we were forced to sign a EULA and entered a contract in distress (Unfortunately not the legal definition, but the real definition only).  We are forced with the options, "SIGN OR YOU CAN'T PLAY BITCH!"  Well we have to give the MMORPG providers the options "SERVE US, OR NEVER SEE US AGAIN BITCH!"

The Law, it's a mess.  Judges are morons, Lawyers are unethical, and politicians are reactionaries looking to get campaign contributions, get friends jobs/contracts, and increase their personal wealth.  Basically the law operates on moral corruption, not the need to serve justice.  We want justice, so we can not rely upon the law, only our dollars (I'd actually prefer Euros).

The internet is a wonderful social experiment in how much power the "average joe/jane" can grab

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo

Originally posted by therain93

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo

Thats why it comes down to us trolls.  We have to spread the word when a MMORPG company acts in a manner that is morally unethical but legally allowed.  If we can't sue them or receive justice, then we should destroy their Public Relations for getting away with unethical behavior.

1) Don't give trolls that much credit -- an outraged consumer base is well within its rights to speak out and it has.  Vote with your wallet and spread the word.  Marketing 101 says that for every bad experience a customer has, s/he will tell 7 people.  For every good one, they tell 3 people.

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo

It is a war, between Companies and Customers, each wants to control the other.  Well MMORPGs are a service industry and in a service industry you bend to the customer. 

2) You are correct, and ultimately customers do have the power, especially when it come to leisure goods. BUT, academically speaking, the fact is that there does exist such a thing as the "bad customer".  "Bad customers" sap resources that can be better spent elsewhere and a company has every right to refuse them. "The customer is always right" does not always apply but companies need to weight that risk and act appropriately.  Companies can also choose who they want to target their goods and services for, again, at their own peril.

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo 
These EULAs are no longer going to be used as "U SIGNED A EULA N00B" propaganda.  It's time for the customer to realize that we were forced to sign a EULA and entered a contract in distress (Unfortunately not the legal definition, but the real definition only).  We are forced with the options, "SIGN OR YOU CAN'T PLAY BITCH!"

3) Your rallying cry is total flame bait....we're talking about a game here.  No one holds a gun to the customer's head, the customer is never in "distress".  As dramatic as you want to make it sound, phrasing the EULA as "SIGN OR YOU CAN'T PLAY BITCH" adds no power as much as you want it to seem like coercion.   You want to use their service, you abide by their rules.  You want to rent this apartment, you abide by the landlord's terms of use as outlined in the lease. 

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo 
Well we have to give the MMORPG providers the options "SERVE US, OR NEVER SEE US AGAIN BITCH!"

4) Um, we already do so everyday -- it's called free trade markets.  Welcome to the economy.....

1) Trolls in the future will rule the Earth, wait and see

2) The Customer, if not an investor in SOE, should not care about their profits.  SOE does not care if the customer is fired or loses money on bad investments, so why should the customer care if they are forced into doing something that will reduce their profit margin?  I am pro-ruthless capitalism, I am not a corporate socialist who wants to protect companies from them evil customers.  If a customer sees another customer being alienated by the corporate entity, then customers should see that as an attack on their power to demand.

3) No no no no no, It's all about demand, my free market capitalist.  They use a EULA to act in bad faith, it can not be legally proven, but then again OJ did not kill his wife and many other funny legal truths are in the law.  The customer IS in distress, the customer IS currently powerless.  This is not how the free market works, the customer has the most power, if we demand that your EULA is void, then it is void.  If you do not void your EULA at the demand of your customer, then we will join together and use market forces (lack of income) to influence you.

4) Actually you are wrong, it's welcome to the internet, where advertising dollars can be countered by some guy in their underwear posting in forum or customer review.  Before, marketing could make you think shitty service is good service.  Now marketing can be countered, now the argument, "thats just the way it works, it's business" is hollow.  Finally customers are in a position where they can pool their resources together and make the "free market" work for them.

The free market is just a tool.  I am just for using the free market in a way where pooled wealth has as much power as concentrated wealth  "The Golden Rule, those with the gold make the rules."



--And why do I post this stuff, to help educate other customers who may not understand or to spread the idea.  This is not a hollow rally cry, it is an attempt to build morale.  If I did not post this, then SOE shills would post "You 'electronically signed' a EULA, too bad" and people would only hear that.

1.) /silly on
You're such a poser, d00d -- you're not troll.  It's not hip to be a troll, so stop calling yourself one. Avril Lavigne knows your dressing up like a troll, trying to be somebody else... And, and, so do I! ( ' :
/silly off

2.) I never said customers should care about profits. Where do you get this notion that companies must bend to the will of a customer? This issue (swg change) is not about corporate socialism and evil customers. It's about FREE-WILL on BOTH sides.  So a company has decided not to fill a market's desire#, that's fine.   What you suggest is akin to saying that the WB should not have been allowed to cancel "Angel" when they did*.  After all, they've infringed on hundreds of thousands of fans' entertainment.  Many consumers exercised their power by watching something else during that time slot and the network took notice by cancelling it and broadcasting something else.  The few (hundred thousand) made "Save Angel" websites and while the creator was quite moved it didn't save the series from the network.  So a consumer "demand" was never met and likely never will in this particular instance--that's the free will of the company.  Should everyone across america have swooped in to rally around the fans of "Angel"?  It's sounds like you would argue yes (and that would be awesome!) but the reality is that business is survival of the fittest. The company wanted another, bigger demographic.+  The customer doesn't get to tell the company what to do, they can only make their wishes known and offer up their cash if they so choose.  Entrenpreneurial companies who want that money will fulfill the demand if they (the company) believe it is worthwhile enough and can still make a profit....Economics 101.

#Here we're talking about desires, not necessities.  The government will prop up companies to deliver basic needs or save entire communities.

*Angel was an awesome show and should not have been cancelled, at least not for another season.

+And then the WB merged with UPN out of desperation, continuing the downward spiral.  Yep, they ignored the customers they had, and changed the format, aspiring for other viewers. Ratings continue to suffer.  Sound familiar?

3.) See, now this is where I feel like we agree in principle but our perspectives are totally different.  You are correct, it is about demand but the consumer isn't powerless, they are not in distress.  Why?  THEY HAVE THE MONEY!  This is how the free market works. If I have about $15,000 dollars of disposable income/year then where do I spend it?  Do I play SWG, VG, EvE, WoW or CoX?  I choose to play City of Heroes and occasionally resub to WoW to play with friends.  That's my power.  And you have the same power.  Silly people who hate SWG yet give their money to SOE still have power but don't realize it or just decided that they weren't disappointed enough with the change to leave, thus endorsing it.  They aren't in distress, they're just ignorant or enjoy the drama, thinking they are martyrs.  Companies invalidating their EULA is strictly at their discretion (as stipulated in the EULA : ' )  Yes, market forces can try to force a company's hand but that's why I wrote "Companies can also choose who they want to target their goods and services for, again, at their own peril." Peril means at the expense of losing profit....so why are we arguing?

Originally posted by Malickiebloo

Originally posted by therain93

Originally posted by Malickiebloo
I agree with everything you are saying , But as gamers we know the work we put in is more than just playing a videogame . We also know how attached we can become to these products . The problem is outside of us , The world is oblivious to these things . Judges and lawyers look at this as nothing more than entertainment . Therefor they would be most likely to side with the corporations .

How exactly is playing an mmorpg not "leisure" though?  What exactly is "the world oblivious" to?  Please explain. 

What makes your time playing SWG any different from watching tivo or swing dancing on a friday night with all the pretty girls? How is it different from reading a book as you cited later on?  Why is playing an mmorpg "work" and no other hobby is? Are  you paying for the necessities of life with all of this "work"?  Doubtfully.  What  you did was pay a bit up front to get access to some form of entertainment and you're actively using it.  You're still at the mercy of the "host", whether it is a corporation, a dj or an author if they decide to change any aspects....

Its not any different , Just read the rest of the post you quoted (The parts not present here ) . I was refering to how some feel that the work they put in is a little more than just virtual entertainment . And how that type of ideal would not be supported or accepted in a court room , Which it shouldn't be .

What I meant by oblivious , Is that they don't factor in the time we spend in these worlds , And the effort we put forth to progress and obtain within them .

Originally posted by tfwarlord

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo

Thats why it comes down to us trolls.  We have to spread the word when a MMORPG company acts in a manner that is morally unethical but legally allowed.  If we can't sue them or receive justice, then we should destroy their Public Relations for getting away with unethical behavior.

The eventual goal should be moral management enforced by the danger of upsetting the masses

It is a war, between Companies and Customers, each wants to control the other.  Well MMORPGs are a service industry and in a service industry you bend to the customer.  These EULAs are no longer going to be used as "U SIGNED A EULA N00B" propaganda.  It's time for the customer to realize that we were forced to sign a EULA and entered a contract in distress (Unfortunately not the legal definition, but the real definition only).  We are forced with the options, "SIGN OR YOU CAN'T PLAY BITCH!"  Well we have to give the MMORPG providers the options "SERVE US, OR NEVER SEE US AGAIN BITCH!"

The Law, it's a mess.  Judges are morons, Lawyers are unethical, and politicians are reactionaries looking to get campaign contributions, get friends jobs/contracts, and increase their personal wealth.  Basically the law operates on moral corruption, not the need to serve justice.  We want justice, so we can not rely upon the law, only our dollars (I'd actually prefer Euros).

The internet is a wonderful social experiment in how much power the "average joe/jane" can grab

Heeey, i just got a idea.... how about if we (us MMO vets who has been mistreated greatly by a mmo company), create a MMO Consumer Group (MCG). ofcause without any legal power, just a pure website, where companies who have mistreated a consumer by some way of the other, could be blacklisted. it would ofcause be desided By the managers and leaders of "MCG" if the company deserves to be blacklisted (so its only if they really deserve it, so all the worhless winers would be disregared ). This wouldent be hard to make, and if we get a big enough community, we mite even have some influance towards the mmo companies:

TO: SOE
From GCM
Attached file: Customercompalnted.doc
About: numerous complaints,
__________________________________________________________
Dear Sirs,

bblalbalblalbalblalbllblalbb

We have the following months received numerous  complaints about your company, regarding the resent [inset Subject].
It is clear that this is not just a few disgruntled players, but a large part of your playerbase, therefore we urge you, to reconsider your stand on [inset subject].
bla bla bla bla  lba bla, (more advises and info about the complaints, (absolutely no threats what so ever, that can be considered illigal).

Best Regards
xxx xxxxxxxxxx
MCG

___________________________________________________________


if we get a good reputation, and become a respected part of the gaming community, letters like these, MITE have an affect...
We dont only to have the blacklist, we could also have game company ratings, so good companies would have good rating, and bad will have bad rates, and absolutely terrible would get blacklisted..
these could be divied up in several catogoried like, CSR rating, DEV rating, General Management rating, and a overall rating..
And not only the Consumers would benifit from this but also the companies. The companies could see where their Strenths and weaknesses are. and in knowing that they could easier see how to they could better be able to reach the good rating...
We could even give a MMO gaming company of the year reward... (not the MMO game of the year, but gaming company of the year, BIG difference)

This would be a great idea -- at a minimum of 8.5 million players to represent (assuming Wow is the universe or mmorpg subscribers and any duplicate accounts would count for those who don't play wow) that would be a tremendous consumer advocacy group.

Originally posted by therain93

Originally posted by tfwarlord
Heeey, i just got a idea.... how about if we (us MMO vets who has been mistreated greatly by a mmo company), create a MMO Consumer Group (MCG). ofcause without any legal power, just a pure website, where companies who have mistreated a consumer by some way of the other, could be blacklisted. it would ofcause be desided By the managers and leaders of "MCG" if the company deserves to be blacklisted (so its only if they really deserve it, so all the worhless winers would be disregared ). This wouldent be hard to make, and if we get a big enough community, we mite even have some influance towards the mmo companies:

This would be a great idea -- at a minimum of 8.5 million players to represent (assuming Wow is the universe or mmorpg subscribers and any duplicate accounts would count for those who don't play wow) that would be a tremendous consumer advocacy group.

Originally posted by Malickiebloo

Originally posted by Wildcat84

They saw tens of millions of Star Wars fans and came to the conclusion that 200-250K Star wars MMO players were not enough.

Instead of blaming themselves for this (the lack of quality control, bugs, lack of content, over promising, under delivering, and the CU) they decided the players were the problem, and made the decision that it was OK to lose 90% of the existing player base because the new, simpler, instant gratification, easy and WoW like game would draw in some of those millions of Star Wars fans.

It was a deliberate decision, and Freeman has admitted here that this was the decision they made was done in that way. Given how they were saying one thing (speaking of CU profession revamps, and features in the expansion they were trying to sell us) while KNOWING they were doing something else (NGE), I believe that they are past the point of having committed a civil tort against us (ie: can be sued) but may have even committed a CRIMINAL act...

It'd be interesting to speak to a lawyer about this, now that we know that this was a deliberate act, that the existing customer base (many of whom had prepaid subscriptions) was deliberately acted against.

I think that class action against SOE should now be considered.

What are the criminal charges exactly ? It was a deliberate decision ? That's not against the Law by any means , Nor is changing the mechanics within a videogame .I fail to see any sure means of victory in a case against SOE . There is no garuntee  that the game will remain the same  Or the services provided will not fall subject to change or cancelation . It says clearly everything within SWG is the property of SOE , That includes any item you may have obtained or any progress made . They reserve the right as owner to cease any and all services provided  to you as the customer . You signed agreement to all of these things when you opened up your account , Whether you took the time to read them or not .That alone ensures SOE is able to do exactly what they did , WIthout any danger of suit or criminal charges .

52. (1) No person shall, for the purpose of promoting, directly or indirectly, the supply or use of a product or ... any business interest, by any means whatever, knowingly or recklessly make a representation to the public that is false or misleading in a material respect.

(5) ... liable to a fine in the discretion of the court or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to both; or (b) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding $200,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year, or to both.

FYI

Arc

P.S. Oh you may be able to change a game as you like if you're a game company, but you most certainly cannot misrepresent the product you plan to deliver.  That my friends is unequivocally illegal.  This is not civil law though, this doesn't result in a law suit.  It results in a criminal conviction punishable by fine paid to the court or imprisonment or both.  Just so we're clear

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Malickiebloo

Originally posted by Wildcat84

They saw tens of millions of Star Wars fans and came to the conclusion that 200-250K Star wars MMO players were not enough.

Instead of blaming themselves for this (the lack of quality control, bugs, lack of content, over promising, under delivering, and the CU) they decided the players were the problem, and made the decision that it was OK to lose 90% of the existing player base because the new, simpler, instant gratification, easy and WoW like game would draw in some of those millions of Star Wars fans.

It was a deliberate decision, and Freeman has admitted here that this was the decision they made was done in that way. Given how they were saying one thing (speaking of CU profession revamps, and features in the expansion they were trying to sell us) while KNOWING they were doing something else (NGE), I believe that they are past the point of having committed a civil tort against us (ie: can be sued) but may have even committed a CRIMINAL act...

It'd be interesting to speak to a lawyer about this, now that we know that this was a deliberate act, that the existing customer base (many of whom had prepaid subscriptions) was deliberately acted against.

I think that class action against SOE should now be considered.

What are the criminal charges exactly ? It was a deliberate decision ? That's not against the Law by any means , Nor is changing the mechanics within a videogame .I fail to see any sure means of victory in a case against SOE . There is no garuntee  that the game will remain the same  Or the services provided will not fall subject to change or cancelation . It says clearly everything within SWG is the property of SOE , That includes any item you may have obtained or any progress made . They reserve the right as owner to cease any and all services provided  to you as the customer . You signed agreement to all of these things when you opened up your account , Whether you took the time to read them or not .That alone ensures SOE is able to do exactly what they did , WIthout any danger of suit or criminal charges .

What are the criminal charges that may apply you ask?

52. (1) No person shall, for the purpose of promoting, directly or indirectly, the supply or use of a product or ... any business interest, by any means whatever, knowingly or recklessly make a representation to the public that is false or misleading in a material respect.

(5) ... liable to a fine in the discretion of the court or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to both; or (b) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding $200,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year, or to both.

FYI

Arc

P.S. Oh you may be able to change a game as you like if you're a game company, but you most certainly cannot misrepresent the product you plan to deliver.  That my friends is unequivocally illegal.  This is not civil law though, this doesn't result in a law suit.  It results in a criminal conviction punishable by fine paid to the court or imprisonment or both.  Just so we're clear

Originally posted by Malickiebloo

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Malickiebloo

Originally posted by Wildcat84

They saw tens of millions of Star Wars fans and came to the conclusion that 200-250K Star wars MMO players were not enough.

Instead of blaming themselves for this (the lack of quality control, bugs, lack of content, over promising, under delivering, and the CU) they decided the players were the problem, and made the decision that it was OK to lose 90% of the existing player base because the new, simpler, instant gratification, easy and WoW like game would draw in some of those millions of Star Wars fans.

It was a deliberate decision, and Freeman has admitted here that this was the decision they made was done in that way. Given how they were saying one thing (speaking of CU profession revamps, and features in the expansion they were trying to sell us) while KNOWING they were doing something else (NGE), I believe that they are past the point of having committed a civil tort against us (ie: can be sued) but may have even committed a CRIMINAL act...

It'd be interesting to speak to a lawyer about this, now that we know that this was a deliberate act, that the existing customer base (many of whom had prepaid subscriptions) was deliberately acted against.

I think that class action against SOE should now be considered.

What are the criminal charges exactly ? It was a deliberate decision ? That's not against the Law by any means , Nor is changing the mechanics within a videogame .I fail to see any sure means of victory in a case against SOE . There is no garuntee  that the game will remain the same  Or the services provided will not fall subject to change or cancelation . It says clearly everything within SWG is the property of SOE , That includes any item you may have obtained or any progress made . They reserve the right as owner to cease any and all services provided  to you as the customer . You signed agreement to all of these things when you opened up your account , Whether you took the time to read them or not .That alone ensures SOE is able to do exactly what they did , WIthout any danger of suit or criminal charges .

What are the criminal charges that may apply you ask?

52. (1) No person shall, for the purpose of promoting, directly or indirectly, the supply or use of a product or ... any business interest, by any means whatever, knowingly or recklessly make a representation to the public that is false or misleading in a material respect.

(5) ... liable to a fine in the discretion of the court or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to both; or (b) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding $200,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year, or to both.

FYI

Arc

P.S. Oh you may be able to change a game as you like if you're a game company, but you most certainly cannot misrepresent the product you plan to deliver.  That my friends is unequivocally illegal.  This is not civil law though, this doesn't result in a law suit.  It results in a criminal conviction punishable by fine paid to the court or imprisonment or both.  Just so we're clear

In order for those charges to stick , Someone would need to prove such has taken place would they not ? This would mean in marketing the NGE they lied , I'm not sure  that did take place , Atleast to an extent that could be considered outside of circumstantial evidence .

It would have to be proven that someone knowingly or recklessly misrepresented their product.

Arc

Originally posted by metatronic
They really have no one to blame but themselves.

I honestly believe WoW & EQ2 killed SWG or brought it to its knee's at least.

I joined swg in june 04 (first trial offered ever for the game).  I came from a long line of FPS and  RTS games and couldn't see myself paying a monthly fee for a game.. Even if it was Star Wars.. But that trial had me hooked up until the NGE.. I still much preferred the classic game and spin attacking lairs in 30 seconds over the CU which forced groups a little bit but really slowed the PVE down a lot. PvP was a bit better but Classic SWG was the best.

In october 04 JTL was released. The current population bought it and was mediocre about it. I thought it was an utter waste of time because space never tied into the ground game at all.. To me the game was all about pve to gear up for PvP factions wars... JTL failed in delivering any meaningful PvE content for me and a great many pvpers. Novemeber 15th, a month later Eq2 and wow both launched...
A SWG community starving for quests and PVE content jumped ships, some to EQ2 and a lot went to WoW.. Most never looked back but some in fact did return to the game over the next 6 months during the "Krayt Boom".. Nearing the end of the krayt boom in may 31st I think it was the CU was launched and ROTW a few weeks later.

ROTW was nothing more than the smallest adventure pack in EQ2. It was really lacking but still offered some more alternative PVE. In conjunction with the "new Combat", slowed down combat and pve, many players then left again.. Some of my best pvp friends couldn't adjust to the CU but some did and returned as did myself after 1 month of hating the changes, I grew to accept it wasn't changing again so I should just get used to it.
This showed sony, I was able to take it dry and ask for a second spanking because 7 months later the NGE was unleashed on the community like a plague.

I think the NGE was sony's way of stealing Lucas arts customers and putting them into EQ2.. Why do I think this? Me, my brother and half the people we guilded with in SWG went to various Eq2 servers. Some of us left to eq2 when the CU hit, And I left when the NGE hit and had been playing EQ2 up till just recently.. My bro, his wife and their friends still play Eq2, I cancel my eq2 account for a month here and there but always go back now and again just to say hi to friends.. I hate eq2 personally, I don't think it could hold SWG classics jockstrap but thats just my opinion.

Anyways, I think SONY saw how some left to play eq2 after the CU, and instead of paying a % of monthly SWG income to Lucas Arts, they would take a chance and steal away more swg players for eq2 after the NGE bomb was dropped. EQ2 income = 100% sony.. SWG income = not 100%.. See what I'm saying?

What SONY most likely did was group SWG players into 4 catagories.

1: Those who quit SWG but keep paying 15/month in eq2.
2: Those who quit SWG but goto WoW or other mmo's.. (considered flat out cancelations)
3: Those who stay in SWG and keep paying 15/month even though a % is going to LA.
4: How many new subs come in to the NGE.

Sony adds up groups 1,3, 4 and if they = more payers than group 2.. The NGE stays right where it is, and is run by a skeleton crew of probably 2-3 vet devs and a bunch of cheap interns fresh out of college just getting their feet wet in the gaming industry.

My brothers is a hardcore raiding eq2'er.. He still says SWG was the best MMO ever made and would return to a classic server..