I got a clearer picture of the behind the scenes process related to the NGE.  Things weren't spelled out clearly, probably because Jeff doesn't have the freedom to do that.  However, certain aspects of the process were made a bit less confusing.  I find that "less confusion" helps a bit.

I also got a sense that someone is taking ownership of their part in a team/corporate decision that had a very negative impact on us as players.  I also hear that given the opportunity, he wouldn't do the same thing again.  Hearing someone take ownership for their part in something also helps a bit.  Hearing that they wouldn't do it again, helps a bit more.

Does this give me total satisfaction and a sense that all things have been put right?  Well of course not, but I'm not an all or nothing kind of person.

I don't expect that Jeff Freeman or anyone from SOE is going to say all the words that I long to hear, or that they are going to put all things back in order the way I think they should. 

Having said that, what Jeff has done here on these forums has helped me deal with some feelings of confusion, hurt and anger to an extent.  Therefore, to that extent, I appreciate the effort.

Arc

Eh? Who's Jeff Freeman? Never heard of him. 

---

Originally posted by Shayde
All I heard was "It wasn't my fault, even though I took credit months ago".

---

Agreed.

Which is why I got so angry at him.

I see someone trying to revise history because he is working for another company developing another game and doesn't want the NGE baggage following him.

Which is something ALL the Devs of record who were involved with the NGE have to worry about.

I already believe the SOE DC Comics game is going to be the biggest turd spat in the history of MMO's just because a bunch of ex SWGNGE devs are there now in senior positions (Rogue5, Heliass among them). I also am less likely to buy the next big LEC Star Wars game because they moved Tora! Tora!! TORRES!!! there as a producer.

Simply put, when I see names of people who were behind the NGE concept appearing in other games I intend to avoid them.

If they put Heliass, Torres, and Freeman on KOTOR3 I wouldn't buy it. And KOTOR 1 and 2 are two of my all time favorite games.

Originally posted by Chessack
The whole thing sorta reminds me of something my advisor said when I was working on my thesis. I am in science and in the old days science papers were written in passive voice ("Samples were placed into the drying chamber..."). Today, most journals prefer active voice ("We placed samples into...." ). As a bit of a joke my advisor said, "Well with passive voice you can deny responsibility.... In other words, 'Mistakes were made, promises were broken.'"

This is what it sounds like Freeman was saying most of the time. Yes, he says, mistakes were made. Yes, promises were broken. Yes, those things should not have been done.

But apparently, nobody did them. They just kind of happened on their own. "Mistakes were made, but not by me.... nor by anyone on my staff, nor by my superiors, nor anyone I personally knew at the company." That's the sort of impression I get from his posts. He agrees what happened was wrong, but it's almost like some divine power were making it happen, and no mortals at SOE were personally at fault.

C

---

Originally posted by Chessack
The whole thing sorta reminds me of something my advisor said when I was working on my thesis. I am in science and in the old days science papers were written in passive voice ("Samples were placed into the drying chamber..."). Today, most journals prefer active voice ("We placed samples into...." ). As a bit of a joke my advisor said, "Well with passive voice you can deny responsibility.... In other words, 'Mistakes were made, promises were broken.'"

This is what it sounds like Freeman was saying most of the time. Yes, he says, mistakes were made. Yes, promises were broken. Yes, those things should not have been done.

But apparently, nobody did them. They just kind of happened on their own. "Mistakes were made, but not by me.... nor by anyone on my staff, nor by my superiors, nor anyone I personally knew at the company." That's the sort of impression I get from his posts. He agrees what happened was wrong, but it's almost like some divine power were making it happen, and no mortals at SOE were personally at fault.

C

---

Bingo.

The NGE was a mistake and it was wrong, but on the other hand, no one is responsible for it either, it just kinda happened...

Uh huh...

Freeman was proud of his role in selling the NGE to "the man" when he did it, enough to crow on his blog. To come out now and say that it was a mistake and ethically wrong is to prove all he's truly sorry for is that it failed and didn't become a resume enhancer (rather it became the opposite).

If it is a mistake and ethically wrong now, it was just as much so back then. Why didn't he realize it then? Why didn't ANY manager or producer realize it?

Of course they knew it was wrong to do, but once they made the decision to throw away a couple hundred thousand people because of the $$$ seen in the possibilities of replacing us with millions, greed won out.

In the end, though, only the SWG players are the losers. We never will truly get our game back, ever. Slime like Heliass, Torres!, McDaniel, Smed, and Freeman get to keep their jobs or move on to ruin someone else's game.

Not much in life is fair.

I pretty sure he was just laying down some "covering fire" while the new lead Dev made the transition. None of this is his fault and i think Dundee just kinda sacrificed himself so the new guy wouldnt be shot right off starting line and therefore have no chance. Like Helios was. It doesnt really matter as far as in getting subs back, but at least the new guys career might not be harmed for something he was against in the first place. So, i think thats good on Dundee's part. If im wrong, at least we learned a TAD bit more info. No loss or harm to us came from him posting.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

I pretty sure he was just laying down some "covering fire" while the new lead Dev made the transition. None of this is his fault and i think Dundee just kinda sacrificed himself so the new guy wouldnt be shot right off starting line and therefore have no chance. Like Helios was. It doesnt really matter as far as in getting subs back, but at least the new guys career might not be harmed for something he was against in the first place. So, i think thats good on Dundee's part. If im wrong, at least we learned a TAD bit more info. No loss or harm to us came from him posting.

Hey, dundee, before you go..About the "removing Raph from the game will make it fun" part you were arguing against in your blog. So. was that it? Is that what the blame for swg failure was put on? Koster? Cause it damn sure seems like thats exactly what the NGE did. Every social, community building, interdepndancy design, or giving players a "choice' was removed. It also seems like they removed Koster's influence on other SOE games..hard to be specific there..just seems that way.

So although you said you couldnt remove the Koster from it, or whatever exactly you said in your blog...thats what was done. Was Koster the final scapegoat for swg's demise? Was there a tool running around the office going "its Koster's influence thats ruining these games" trying to make a name for himself? It just seems the things that were obviosly Koster..were just gutted out..if koster thought of it, remove it. Whats the deal there?

Originally posted by Obee
Dundee was doing what others have already said, trying to come across as remorseful about the NGE, while not accepting any blame and trying to deflect any blame away from everyone who deserves it.

  When that didn't work like he thought it would, he changed to being more aggresive towards everyone who didn't swallow what he was pushing and began playing semantics as a dodge.

  We didn't actually learn anything more than we already knew, SOE did it, LucasArts approved it, and the players got screwed.  The whole, 'Nobody thought it would work' and 'Nobody was responsible' memes are pure BS meant to retroactively absolve everyone involved from blame.

True, we didn't lose anything, nor were we harmed, by Dundee's posting here, but we also didn't gain anything positive from it.  I don't think he did either.

Originally posted by Obee

Dundee was doing what others have already said, trying to come across as remorseful about the NGE, while not accepting any blame and trying to deflect any blame away from everyone who deserves it.  When that didn't work like he thought it would, he changed to being more aggresive towards everyone who didn't swallow what he was pushing and began playing semantics as a dodge.  We didn't actually learn anything more than we already knew, SOE did it, LucasArts approved it, and the players got screwed.  The whole, 'Nobody thought it would work' and 'Nobody was responsible' memes are pure BS meant to retroactively absolve everyone involved from blame.

True, we didn't lose anything, nor were we harmed, by Dundee's posting here, but we also didn't gain anything positive from it.  I don't think he did either.

That is the whole problem here... All you people want, the ONLY thing that will make you happy, is having a person to blame, a scapegoat for a company descision. You want someone to point your finger at, and when you point, you want him to grovel in the mud, begging forgiveness for all the wrongs in your lives. You want a person to shout at and blame for every descision taken in a board room, pretty much like an employee always complain about the manager above him, and never at the owner making the rules. People tend to forget that most descisions in a large company are taken by a group of bodies, very unpersonal and without an actual face. and most descisions are taken as a result of days of discussion, they dont come out finished by one person saying "THIS is how it will look, now git!"

So... What you are looking for here, an actual person to dump all your hate and loathing on, and him confessing HE is the culprit, HE is the guy with the gun in the window.. Will never happen. There is no such person. You will spend years of your lives looking for a person that does not exist. I even think you know that, the few minutes a day you are sensible people and not a mindless mob with a noose and a tree. Was he involved? Probably.. as someone was involved in cancelling EnB, as someone was involved in releasing Barbiegames, as someone was involved in creating the Master of Orion III after two of the most perfect strategic games in history.

Can he take the blame for all of it, or even part of it? Can he, in your words: "accept the blame"? Well he could, but he would be lying. because he was just a voice among voices, a hand among other upstretched hands... a tool in a big toolbox, and even that little screwdriver that does not work on any screws had a vote.

So please... I know you want to hang someone, but right now, you are the bad guys, the mindless mob.... Not him.

Do you ever wonder who is so stubborn on SOE / LA's end about making a classic server? Think about it, Mythic Entertainment was thrown into the exact same situation when they released their 2nd expansion Trials of Atlantis for their flagship game Dark Age of Camelot. That expansion completely ruined the game for many, many players. Enough players that Mythic actually decided to do something about it, for the players, because they admitted that the expansion had in some ways ruined the direction of the game.

So, you mean to tell me a small company such as Mythic can accomplish more then the giants of SOE and LA? Really, I don't give a rats arse who ruined SWG, I just want to know which dumb friggin retard working over there is saying a classic server would be too much work to setup.

Seriously, rather then putting an end to this never ending mob frenzy, by creating 1 or 2 classic servers, SOE and/or LA remain to be nothing more then ignorant, noncaring, money grubbing idiots. It's that simple, whichever company you decide is at fault, as if it really matters, they are a company that obviously missed the class on customer service.

Now, I love SOE to death, cause EQ1 paved the way for so many MMO's. I know SOE gets a lot of flack because for some reason, they think they are hot shit in this industry and don't have to care. That doesn't mean that their games aren't good games, they just suck at listening to what their players ( customers ) have to say. Me personally, I never had any gripes about any SOE games and I stopped playing SWG long before it got retarded.

I don't care who screwed SWG up, it's dead, worthless and probably should just be banned from conversation. If either company isn't atleast willing to provide a classic server or two just to see if enough people would be interested in playing. I see nothing more then stubborness to admit that you were wrong in your decision making and your game failed because of it.

Originally posted by Harafnir

Originally posted by Obee

Dundee was doing what others have already said, trying to come across as remorseful about the NGE, while not accepting any blame and trying to deflect any blame away from everyone who deserves it.  When that didn't work like he thought it would, he changed to being more aggresive towards everyone who didn't swallow what he was pushing and began playing semantics as a dodge.  We didn't actually learn anything more than we already knew, SOE did it, LucasArts approved it, and the players got screwed.  The whole, 'Nobody thought it would work' and 'Nobody was responsible' memes are pure BS meant to retroactively absolve everyone involved from blame.

True, we didn't lose anything, nor were we harmed, by Dundee's posting here, but we also didn't gain anything positive from it.  I don't think he did either.

 

That is the whole problem here... All you people want, the ONLY thing that will make you happy, is having a person to blame, a scapegoat for a company descision. You want someone to point your finger at, and when you point, you want him to grovel in the mud, begging forgiveness for all the wrongs in your lives. You want a person to shout at and blame for every descision taken in a board room, pretty much like an employee always complain about the manager above him, and never at the owner making the rules. People tend to forget that most descisions in a large company are taken by a group of bodies, very unpersonal and without an actual face. and most descisions are taken as a result of days of discussion, they dont come out finished by one person saying "THIS is how it will look, now git!"

So... What you are looking for here, an actual person to dump all your hate and loathing on, and him confessing HE is the culprit, HE is the guy with the gun in the window.. Will never happen. There is no such person. You will spend years of your lives looking for a person that does not exist. I even think you know that, the few minutes a day you are sensible people and not a mindless mob with a noose and a tree. Was he involved? Probably.. as someone was involved in cancelling EnB, as someone was involved in releasing Barbiegames, as someone was involved in creating the Master of Orion III after two of the most perfect strategic games in history.

Can he take the blame for all of it, or even part of it? Can he, in your words: "accept the blame"? Well he could, but he would be lying. because he was just a voice among voices, a hand among other upstretched hands... a tool in a big toolbox, and even that little screwdriver that does not work on any screws had a vote.

So please... I know you want to hang someone, but right now, you are the bad guys, the mindless mob.... Not him.

The problem isnt the mistake and unethical decision that is the NGE. The problem is the "real" unethical mistake they are making by not making up for the NGE and the actual harm and suffering it caused to a Whole lot of people. I dont think those people should be in the game making business. Not the people who made the NGE, but the people who wont make up for it. No good can come from playing a game made by them, and i would keep children away from them. No kids allowed to play SOE games in my house:)

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

The problem isnt the mistake and unethical decision that is the NGE. The problem is the "real" unethical mistake they are making by not making up for the NGE and the actual harm and suffering it caused to a Whole lot of people. I dont think those people should be in the game making business. Not the people who made the NGE, but the people who wont make up for it. No good can come from playing a game made by them, and i would keep children away from them. No kids allowed to play SOE games in my house:)

 

So does that mean when SOE buys everyone out, your going to stop playing games?

Originally posted by Rhoklaw

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

The problem isnt the mistake and unethical decision that is the NGE. The problem is the "real" unethical mistake they are making by not making up for the NGE and the actual harm and suffering it caused to a Whole lot of people. I dont think those people should be in the game making business. Not the people who made the NGE, but the people who wont make up for it. No good can come from playing a game made by them, and i would keep children away from them. No kids allowed to play SOE games in my house:)

 

So does that mean when SOE buys everyone out, your going to stop playing games?

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

The problem isnt the mistake and unethical decision that is the NGE. The problem is the "real" unethical mistake they are making by not making up for the NGE and the actual harm and suffering it caused to a Whole lot of people. I dont think those people should be in the game making business. Not the people who made the NGE, but the people who wont make up for it. No good can come from playing a game made by them, and i would keep children away from them. No kids allowed to play SOE games in my house:)

 

No its not. Not here. Originally perhaps, but not here, in this forum, right now. Pretty much everyone that took a crushing blow to their characters, and three four years of work, building a perfect existence in a virtual world has done the same as that. They avoid SOE, they dont want to give money to a company and so on and so forth, and there is nothing wrong with that. My friends do the same and I have all the understanding in the world for it. I also know that if my friends met this man, they would take a beer (Well, not Harald.. he dont drink. Maybe a coke, then) with him and and sigh a bit, making a toast to what once was. He was there... That does not make him Professor Moriarty.

 What is wrong here is a pile of people attacking and harassing a single person, the ONLY one with enough guts, honesty, backbone and decensy to stand up and with a loud clear voice say: "I was there.. It was not funny, but hey, if I can help you understand some of it, then I will" trying to put all the blame on him, NOT because he was singelehandedly responsible.. but because he is there to attack.

It has turned from a few unhappy campers with all the right in the world to be upset, into a flipping mob of tards, trying to hang any innocent person they can find, not because he is guilty, but because he is present.  So dont think he is the problem. He is not the solution either, you wont get your characters back, your game back or your lives back by attacking him. Just try to show some decency, becuase as people behave right now, you dont deserve to be respected, listened to or heck, you dont even deserve your game back.

Originally posted by Harafnir

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

The problem isnt the mistake and unethical decision that is the NGE. The problem is the "real" unethical mistake they are making by not making up for the NGE and the actual harm and suffering it caused to a Whole lot of people. I dont think those people should be in the game making business. Not the people who made the NGE, but the people who wont make up for it. No good can come from playing a game made by them, and i would keep children away from them. No kids allowed to play SOE games in my house:)

 

No its not. Not here. Originally perhaps, but not here, in this forum, right now. Pretty much everyone that took a crushing blow to their characters, and three four years of work, building a perfect existence in a virtual world has done the same as that. They avoid SOE, they dont want to give money to a company and so on and so forth, and there is nothing wrong with that. My friends do the same and I have all the understanding in the world for it. I also know that if my friends met this man, they would take a beer (Well, not Harald.. he dont drink. Maybe a coke, then) with him and and sigh a bit, making a toast to what once was. He was there... That does not make him Professor Moriarty.

 What is wrong here is a pile of people attacking and harassing a single person, the ONLY one with enough guts, honesty, backbone and decensy to stand up and with a loud clear voice say: "I was there.. It was not funny, but hey, if I can help you understand some of it, then I will" trying to put all the blame on him, NOT because he was singelehandedly responsible.. but because he is there to attack.

It has turned from a few unhappy campers with all the right in the world to be upset, into a flipping mob of tards, trying to hang any innocent person they can find, not because he is guilty, but because he is present.  So dont think he is the problem. He is not the solution either, you wont get your characters back, your game back or your lives back by attacking him. Just try to show some decency, becuase as people behave right now, you dont deserve to be respected, listened to or heck, you dont even deserve your game back.

I gotta say that I am happy Jeff has posted on these boards, no matter what folks say, he has let us in on a little more detail. Yeah we all knew $OE and LA sucked with their decision, but Jeff has come along here and told us the thinking behind some decisions and his own personal opinions. Hes not unemployed, so its not as if he has nothing better to do.

I blame THE MAN, in other words Smedders and Torres or $OE and LA. In life a boss tells you what to do and if you don't agree you've gotta just suck on it. I know I wouldn't have become a martry over anything like a game and risk my job telling THE MAN he was an ass.

Obviously as jeff has said some folk did tell them it would fail, but the powers that be knew better, they knew the mythical subscribers would arrive. Thats one thing jeff has told us, some devs tried and failed to convince the dumbasses at the top they were making a mistake.

I hate $OE and actually LA too, what a complete F*ck up they have made with SWG and the whole Star Wars IP. This whole thing has tainted my own opinion of Star Wars, Im not even sure why but I aint looking forward to any star wars stuff particularly. Thats being said by a self confessed (former) Star Wars geek.

Roll on WAR and Warhammer 40k MMO, even though I know they wont be a patch on Pre-NGE SWG.