So Smed is the one who truly believed in the NGE? Can we add Torres to that list as well?

Brenlo said it was Jeff and Helios idea.

They all secretly blame the players

Should we blame God as well?

Who else can we add to that list.

meh

  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted in Personal at 12:14 am by Dundee

If someone else (i.e. not you) designs a house and asks you to come look at their design, then it is not your design, no matter how long you look at it, no matter what you think of it. And you didn’t “come up with it” even if you like it.

 If someone else asks if it is possible to build, and you say “Yes, that is possible,” then that is not the same as “pushing” or “selling” or “demanding that your design be built”. No matter how many times they ask “Are you sure?” and no matter how many times you answer the question, and no matter even what you think of the design: it is not your design (keep up now, we just covered that) and even if it were your design, that’s not “pushing your design” but is, rather, answering a question.If it is possible and you say it is not possible even though you know it is possible, then you are a filthy liar. If they say “Ok, build that house” and you join a team of builders who all work hard to build the house then it is still not your design, you didn’t build it single-handedly, you didn’t shove it down anyone’s throat and it wasn’t your decision to build it. If you make claims to the contrary then you are a filthy liar.

I’m not talking about anything in particular, I’m just sayin’.

------------------------------------------------------------------

-Brenlo-

First a request, to those of you using this thread as your personal battleground, please take it to PM's. So, I wanted to clarify that we did, here at SOE conceive and develop the NGE. We did so with the best of intentions, to try and make a better game. No blame or buck is being passed. =)

We can, and I am sure many of us will, debate for years on end whether this was a good idea. Personally, I believe the concept of the NGE was sound. Some smart guys had some good ideas to make the game better, Jeff being one of them, and they went for it. A bold move and honestly, I am happy to be a part of a company that is not afraid to try something different. Where did we go wrong? Delivery, we failed in our timing and communication. That is where we let you down most, SWG faithful, and for that I truly apologize.

Brenlo Bixiebopper

Director, Global Community Relations - SOE

---------------------------------------------

It's a rough life, but someone has to live it.

 http://soe.lithium.com/swg/board/message?board.id=swggpdiscussion&message.id=1039243#M1039243

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------

-Smed- pulled out the good stuff

http://stationblog.wordpress.com/

 With the exception of the DC Comics game we’re working on, each of these games is an original IP. Our teams in San Diego, Austin, Seattle and Taiwan are excited about working on game worlds that we’re developing ourselves. It’s often frustrating to work with third party IP. There’s a constant battle over what the right direction is for the game, and from our own recent experience, it’s not something we enjoy. It very often puts handcuffs on what we can and can’t do and, frankly speaking, it’s a lot harder to make great games when the IP holders don’t understand the online gaming market.

The exception to this rule has been our relationship with the team at DC Comics. I have to say they are indeed a pleasure to work with. Jim Lee’s involvement as the Executive Creative Director has been a hell of a lot of fun. I just saw the latest build, and the team has come up with a combat system that I think is hands down the best I’ve ever seen. It doesn’t remotely feel like today’s MMOs. It’s all about the action.

One last thing: In the near future, you’re going to read about another big development here at SOE. We recently acquired a game developer that is going to take us into a new space entirely. We’re really excited about it and I think when you hear what it’s about and see what they’re working on you’ll agree!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeff Freeman

UPDATE:

Now see, this is just the sort of thing I’ve been talking about. Ya get misunderstood, post a clarification, that get’s misunderstood, so you gotta post a clarification to that, and on and on forever. Better off just leaving the misunderstood thing out there and letting people assign their own meanings to it. Don’t try to read so closely between the lines that you fail read the lines themselves. All I’m saying here is: When I wrote “I looked at what this guy designed” it should never have been interpreted to mean “I designed that and everything else”. But it was taken to mean just that. Seems a little crazy to me. So I finally wrote that it shouldn’t have been taken that way (since it keeps getting trotted out and about) and now some folks are taking that to mean something other that just what it says.

C’mon now.

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stacking blame for the NGE is like stacking blame for global warming.

Does mankind play a hand? I suppose, just like thermal rises in temperature, added with solar activity, added with natural cycle.

Blame Smed, blame whiney players, blame LA for over charging on thier license, blame credit farming sites for exploiting the game, blame devs, blame low pops.

Blame everyone, they all played a role. There are no silver bullets. Much like the comparison though, nobody has an answer everyone can agree on.

Originally posted by free2play

Stacking blame for the NGE is like stacking blame for global warming.

Does mankind play a hand? I suppose, just like thermal rises in temperature, added with solar activity, added with natural cycle.

Originally posted by Rekrul
Windmills. They are flanking us from the right. We need to stop their advance. Send the cavalry in.

tillamook wrote:
"No one on the dev team thought the SWG players would accept the NGE."

So Smed is the one who truly believed in the NGE? Can we add Torres to that list as well?

Brenlo said it was Jeff and Helios idea.

That's not what he said. You've even got him quoted in your post there, not saying that, even out of context.

Here's what happened:

It’s often frustrating to work with third party IP. There’s a constant battle over what the right direction is for the game, and from our own recent experience, it’s not something we enjoy. It very often puts handcuffs on what we can and can’t do and, frankly speaking, it’s a lot harder to make great games when the IP holders don’t understand the online gaming market.

Originally posted by Dundee
So that's when, and more importantly why, Brenlo posted, "Some smart guys had some good ideas to make the game better, Jeff being one of them" to say that SOE designed the NGE, we weren't denying responsibility, nor blaming the NGE, and so on.

Originally posted by Obee

Originally posted by Dundee
So that's when, and more importantly why, Brenlo posted, "Some smart guys had some good ideas to make the game better, Jeff being one of them" to say that SOE designed the NGE, we weren't denying responsibility, nor blaming the NGE, and so on.

So why weren't those "good ideas to make the game better" used instead of the NGE?

---

Originally posted by Dundee

---

Originally posted by Obee

---

Originally posted by Dundee
So that's when, and more importantly why, Brenlo posted, "Some smart guys had some good ideas to make the game better, Jeff being one of them" to say that SOE designed the NGE, we weren't denying responsibility, nor blaming the NGE, and so on.

---

So why weren't those "good ideas to make the game better" used instead of the NGE?

---

ZING!

Boring story:

I did a lot of soul-searching after the NGE. Months after, I mean, when I wasn't even on SWG any more. I revisited everything I had done (or not done), every design I could have changed, every decision I had made, or could have made but didn't.

Just thinking, "What could I have done, have done, tried to do, or tried to have done differently, in order to make the NGE less painful for the veterans?"

Yeah, you're wondering why I didn't think that 'til months later. Well. There's a reason for it that you wouldn't like, so back to my story...

Eventually I arrived at a design which would have kept the skill system, but still obliterated so many skill mods that a lot of vet's rares and uberjunk would still have been zapped, anything combat-related for sure. CH's and pets would have stayed, but their pets would have been a bit more autonomous. Crafters would maybe have not been completely replaced by loot - just a maybe there - but wouldn't make all the best items, or even most of them. Jedi skills would have been as easy to get as other elite skills, and balanced accordingly. And so on and so forth. Just really savage stuff, but all lesser than what NGE did.

Then I thought about how the vets would have reacted to that: Surprise! It's the NGE, Bob tell them what they've won!

Just the exact same reaction, I'd think.

A year later, we'd still be here, you and me, having this exact same thread. You'd still have asked, "Why weren't those "good ideas to make the game better" used instead of the NGE?"

I don't think a single person here or anywhere would believe me if the answer was "You should have seen what we were going to do!"

---

You could have told them:

This sucks, watching paint dry is more fun, it will NEVER go over, and DONT DO IT.

You didn't.

Originally posted by Wildcat84

Freeman better get used to pumping gas. Or to asking "you want fries with that?!"

That is your future bro.

If you'd talked like you do now back in 2005 you'd have been a hero.

Talking like that now proves you are a chump.

You aren't on our side. You never were, you never will be. You are a patsy yes man. Well, you learned who the boss really is. Not Smed. US.

You're fired.

---

Originally posted by Dundee

---

Originally posted by Wildcat84

Freeman better get used to pumping gas. Or to asking "you want fries with that?!"
That is your future bro.
If you'd talked like you do now back in 2005 you'd have been a hero.
Talking like that now proves you are a chump.
You aren't on our side. You never were, you never will be. You are a patsy yes man. Well, you learned who the boss really is. Not Smed. US.
You're fired.

---

You're a pretty hateful person, you know?

---

Yes, when it comes for people like you who only "find God" after you have helped murder people's pasttime.

Making a stand as you have now doesn't mean SHIT. Costs you nothing.

Especially since you have a paper trail of pushing and LOVING the NGE at the time (when it was in your intrest).

You are working for another company now and soon will have something else to sell, something you dont' want tainted by the CUNGE. Well, sucks to be you, because it's going to.

Taking a stand back THEN when it counted when we all did (got me 3 forum permabans) when Tiggs did (got her fired) would have made you a hero.

Words are cheap. You SO moralize. You SO speak what you think we want to hear.

Actions speak louder than words. You once held the "lead designer" title, which Dork Lord Heliass (not qualified to design a taco much less a MMO) and Blixtev "0 bugs in the publish".. Uh, MASSIVE bugs found, don't worry, the hotfix will get them... holds.

Where were YOU when WE needed your voice? When it might have mattered? When Smed dismissed US as the "vocal minority?"

You say your whole Dev team knew the NGE was doomed. Yet NONE of you had the balls to stand up for us.

Sorry, I don't care what you say now. You will do the same to some future playerbase, if you are allowed to hold a similar position for another MMO. My hope is you never make it there again.

Originally posted by Dundee

Originally posted by Wildcat84

Freeman better get used to pumping gas. Or to asking "you want fries with that?!"

That is your future bro.

If you'd talked like you do now back in 2005 you'd have been a hero.

Talking like that now proves you are a chump.

You aren't on our side. You never were, you never will be. You are a patsy yes man. Well, you learned who the boss really is. Not Smed. US.

You're fired.

You're a pretty hateful person, you know?

Originally posted by Wildcat84
You could have told them:

This sucks, watching paint dry is more fun, it will NEVER go over, and DONT DO IT.

You didn't.

I wasn't on the focus group.

You don't know, man. You don't know. Cause you weren't there.

Response: Would you believe that almost everyone, including the them you say I could have told, had computers on their desks connected to a network, which allowed them to login, play, and form their own opinions.

Originally posted by Dundee

Originally posted by Wildcat84
You could have told them:

This sucks, watching paint dry is more fun, it will NEVER go over, and DONT DO IT.

You didn't.

I feel like I owe you, so I'm going to give you three replies to choose from, and you can pick the one you like best:

Number one:

I wasn't on the focus group.

Number two:

You don't know, man. You don't know. Cause you weren't there.

Number three:

Response: Would you believe that almost everyone, including the them you say I could have told, had computers on their desks connected to a network, which allowed them to login, play, and form their own opinions.

Originally posted by Dundee

Originally posted by Obee

Originally posted by Dundee
So that's when, and more importantly why, Brenlo posted, "Some smart guys had some good ideas to make the game better, Jeff being one of them" to say that SOE designed the NGE, we weren't denying responsibility, nor blaming the NGE, and so on.

So why weren't those "good ideas to make the game better" used instead of the NGE?

ZING!

Boring story:

I did a lot of soul-searching after the NGE.  Months after, I mean, when I wasn't even on SWG any more. I revisited everything I had done (or not done), every design I could have changed, every decision I had made, or could have made but didn't.

Just thinking, "What could I have done, have done, tried to do, or tried to have done differently, in order to make the NGE less painful for the veterans?"

Yeah, you're wondering why I didn't think that 'til months later. Well. There's a reason for it that you wouldn't like, so back to my story...

Eventually I arrived at a design which would have kept the skill system, but still obliterated so many skill mods that a lot of vet's rares and uberjunk would still have been zapped, anything combat-related for sure. CH's and pets would have stayed, but their pets would have been a bit more autonomous. Crafters would maybe have not been completely replaced by loot - just a maybe there - but wouldn't make all the best items, or even most of them. Jedi skills would have been as easy to get as other elite skills, and balanced accordingly. And so on and so forth. Just really savage stuff, but all lesser than what NGE did.

Then I thought about how the vets would have reacted to that: Surprise! It's the NGE, Bob tell them what they've won!

Just the exact same reaction, I'd think.

A year later, we'd still be here, you and me, having this exact same thread. You'd still have asked, "Why weren't those "good ideas to make the game better" used instead of the NGE?"

I don't think a single person here or anywhere would believe me if the answer was "You should have seen what we were going to do!"

Because Freeman has to silence his critics rather than debate them.

This forum should be called the Freeman Rebab Tour.

Originally posted by Dundee

Originally posted by Wildcat84
You could have told them:

This sucks, watching paint dry is more fun, it will NEVER go over, and DONT DO IT.

You didn't.

I feel like I owe you, so I'm going to give you three replies to choose from, and you can pick the one you like best:

Number one:

I wasn't on the focus group.

Number two:

You don't know, man. You don't know. Cause you weren't there.

Number three:

Response: Would you believe that almost everyone, including the them you say I could have told, had computers on their desks connected to a network, which allowed them to login, play, and form their own opinions.

Originally posted by Shayde


The third one is actually refuted by Smed when he said AFTER the nge that he forced employees to start playing the game and found out it was "Nowhere near fun right now".

Originally posted by Rekrul

Originally posted by Shayde


The third one is actually refuted by Smed when he said AFTER the nge that he forced employees to start playing the game and found out it was "Nowhere near fun right now".

As a software developer, you rarely, if ever, use the products you're developing.

This has a very practical reason:
- You're not target audience (99.95% of the time)
- You might get ambitions and ideas as to what needs to be done
- You might get depressed by the flaws in the product
- You might realize you no longer want to be a part of the product

Starting an app 250 times a day while developing is not using it. Running it off local admin/test database is also not using it.

When dealing with products developed by teams involving dozens or even hundreds of different people you'll get incredibly depressed over how things aren't going your way. So it's better to not do it.

Does everyone who works at <car company> drive cars made by <car company>? This argument is invalid in case of software. Car's cost a lot of money, and companies offer subsidies to employees, or in certain cases, it's helped by government to support domestic industry over imports.

But in case of software, that isn't the case. Firstly, your product is one of thousands alike (name the product, there's thousand identical ones out there - by function, yes, MMOs as well). Secondly, they are cheap/free. Lastly, all products, with exception of Microsofts are niche products - that's what most of software industry lives from - custom developed software.

Google encourages people to use their own products. Then again, everyone needs a search engine, and googles is good. Microsoft does the same, but MSN search is crap, so everyone uses google. But this is soon no longer the case when it comes to outlook, word, excel or other products.

While noble and idealistic view of "practice what you preach", it just doesn't work in reality. And enforcing it kills corporate moral.

Originally posted by Shayde

That is HARDLY an excuse for a game company. They MUST play the game to at very least see if the bugs are fixed. They should love the game, breathe the game.

Or at very least, listen to it's players. The ones who love it more.

Originally posted by Rekrul

Originally posted by Shayde

That is HARDLY an excuse for a game company. They MUST play the game to at very least see if the bugs are fixed. They should love the game, breathe the game.

Or at very least, listen to it's players. The ones who love it more.

Feature/bug testing is different from playing the game.

Playing the game would mean having a regular account, grinding. In case of WoW, being a part of 40 person guild, doing 8 hour raids. In case of SWG, spending days grinding up Jedi. Then competing in FRS.

See the problem? 40 developers, all playing enough (2-4 hours a day) to play the game as it's intended to be played? Faction farming for epic gear, nading baz nitches for the FS xp.

Because that's the game experience others are getting.

What about adventure games. How do you play the game for 1-2 years during development. It's impossible. Doing every puzzle for the 80th time would simply kill you.

Unfortunately, in the end, you do come down to focus groups and beta testers. Players who tend to be most vocal, tend to be the less useful ones.

In case of MMOs "playing the game" is obviously impossible. You cannot test every feature with expected subscription period of 6 months.

Agree fully here.

Imagine:  Working 8-12 hours a day on something.  Anything.  You do this 5 days a week, averaging 40-60 hours a week for months and months.  Then going home after a full work day, eating some food, then logging in to PLAY for a couple hours a night what you have been working on. 

I imagine, that since devs ARE human, that the last thing they want to do when they get home after seeing 'Star Wars MMO' all day and all week is to log into a 'Star Wars MMO'.  That sort of thing would generate staleness. 

Personally?  I want them out there playing WoW, GW, Vanguard, whatever.  I WANT them out there testing and playing other games to see what they do well that could bring about a lightbulb moment as to something 'cool' they could put in 'Star Wars MMO'.

Should they play while working? Absolutely.  MInimum 1 hr a day.  PvEing, PvPing, crafting, whatever they like the most, be in the game doing that.  Play the game as they would normally be playing it. 

But at home after work?  No way.  A change of scenery does everyone good.  Otherwise you'd be sending everyone on a one way ticket to burn out.

Originally posted by Wildcat84

Originally posted by Dundee
You're a pretty hateful person, you know?

Yes, when it comes for people like you who only "find God" after you have helped murder people's pasttime.

Making a stand as you have now doesn't mean SHIT. Costs you nothing.

Especially since you have a paper trail of pushing and LOVING the NGE at the time (when it was in your intrest).

You are working for another company now and soon will have something else to sell, something you dont' want tainted by the CUNGE. Well, sucks to be you, because it's going to.

Taking a stand back THEN when it counted when we all did (got me 3 forum permabans) when Tiggs did (got her fired) would have made you a hero.

Words are cheap. You SO moralize. You SO speak what you think we want to hear.

Actions speak louder than words. You once held the "lead designer" title, which Dork Lord Heliass (not qualified to design a taco much less a MMO) and Blixtev "0 bugs in the publish".. Uh, MASSIVE bugs found, don't worry, the hotfix will get them... holds.

Where were YOU when WE needed your voice? When it might have mattered? When Smed dismissed US as the "vocal minority?"

You say your whole Dev team knew the NGE was doomed.

Yet NONE of you had the balls to stand up for us.

Sorry, I don't care what you say now. You will do the same to some future playerbase, if you are allowed to hold a similar position for another MMO.

My hope is you never make it there again.

Originally posted by Obee
All that shows is after all this time you still think the problem with the old game was the system. It wasn't the old system that was the problem, it was what you folks kept doing to it.

Your imaginary revamp would have been just as bad because it would still have removed much of what made the old game fun.

 Outsied of the more vocal PvPers, the playerbase didn't want the constant nerfing and chasing of some mythical 'balance'.  We wanted the game we had, but with more things to do in it.  We wanted more quests, stories, and events.  We didn't want a revamp, and neither did the imaginary players your former company was trying to attract.

I know!

The whole idea of relying on looted equipment doesn't even make sense for a non magical fantasy type game.  SWG had the single best crafting system found in any MMO that has been released and you still think it needed to be made less useful?