You know, this is an argument I made a long time ago. I made the argument that the SWG Developers were not exactly the same type of gamers that the die-hard SWG player base was.

Most of the people who were good at SWG Pre-CU had to invest a lot of time into the game. Someone who was great at the game spent many hours per day in the game. Then there were idiots like me who would play around the clock, so we had multiple accounts, guilds, cities, jedi, crafters, non-jedi, and were in need of psychological help most likely for investing so much of our personal time into a video game.

The SWG-SOE teams management, developers, and gophers have to balance work, gaming, and personal time. There is just no way that they could possibly experience the game the way many of us did. It would stand to reason that people who are so time encumbered would get more enjoyement out of FPS games and games that are simple enough to allow them to just log in, play, and log out.

I have always thought that the very fact that the Devs and SWG team could not possibly experience the game and community as we did made isolated our SWG gaming community from the people we relied upon to manage and engineer our gaming world. Think about it, why would you put much thought or effort into developing a game situation you yourself either don't like, can't enjoy, or simply don't truly understand?

Remember how excited the developers were over the CU? They were almost creaming themselves talking up how much they loved the NGE. They may have been giving their honest opinions. It would mean that JFreeman is correct in his assertion that is is not one person's fault. It is the whole teams fault for destroying the game SWG once was. It would mean that our developers and the people managing them were in all reality FPS and WoW/Guild War style players because they could not possibly have the time to be true Star Wars Galaxies players.

If true, this would answer a lot of questions like, why remove so much of the games immersive environment and stratagy, why go to FPS style interface, why push a more cartoonish display, why take a wonderfuly complex game and simplify it to the kiddy standard?

If true, it means we were screwed over by the SOE-SWG teams selfish desire to turn the game we loved into a game that they could enjoy due to their limited game time.

Why do I bring this up?

Star Wars Galaxies Dev Opens Doors

Posted by Gary on on Thursday, February 22 @ Eastern Standard Time

Developer Anthony Castoro (SWG, UO, and Codemasters) has started up a new MMO company. Heatwave Interavtive promises to combine online play with the excitement of single-player consoled games. I’m…holding…….my………breath………………

 

I edited the thread heading so as not to confuse people. I don't know when he quit, I simply reported what was a recent news blog on another site. The theory is a different matter and I think an importent one. Thanks to Mr. Freeman for the little stab at myself for pointing out the confusion in my post that this may have caused. I hope this small token edit will suffice to show Mr. Freeman that a pre-Combat Dumb-Down fanboy can make a mistake, admit to it, correct it, and appologize for it. That is a hell of a lot more than we Pre-CU players were ever offered or given from SWG-SOE developement, but what the hell, someone has to be the stand-up guy.

Just let me know what the game is called so I won't buy it.

A company lol. We already have fps mmo and nobody wants thats one. Anyone got his email id like to discuss a better idea for a company lets buy out SOE and call it SOB and revamp swg as world of star wars with the expansion pack  Smeds burning sensation. We could have Julio torres and Smed replace vader and luke in game and have them drive into town sqaure with limos and run in circles screaming macros that offer empty promises

Who was this guy?  What was his forum handle?

Originally posted by Shayde
Just let me know what the game is called so I won't buy it.

Oh if I get the info I will most certainly pass it on.

This whole topic and conversation brings up a few other questions.

There are all kinds of different styles of game play. We name a lot of them by their style of play. Role Players, FPS peeps, Console players, etc etc etc... but what do you label an SWG player? Mass gamer? Sure... Role Player? .... yea, there were a lot of those... PvPer, PvEer?... yes we had a lot of those too. As a matter of fact we had a cross section of almost every style player you can think of. The one things most of us shared was being part of a mass online game, being part of a very large and involved online community, and spending more time then sanity would allow on a game.

You can all add to that I am sure... but if we ever figure out how to label our group (Maybe a Mass Online Diverse Player Community or some such) then maybe we can ask the question: How do we find representation in a gaming industry full of people who could never enjoy a game that requires the amount of time vested and personal involvement that we as a gaming community seem to enjoy?

This adds a lot of questions for this thread. I think that all of these questions will have to be addressed in a big way for us to be rewarded with games that fit our personalities and expectations.

So, what are your thoughts on this?

Industry works in phases.

Right now, there's plenty of aspiring game developers who have become comfortable with MMO systems.

As such, it's time to go from Wolfenstein 3D (EQ) through Quake (Planetside, GW, NGE) to Half-Life 2.

Upcoming generation of titles will increasingly utilize real-time actions and more world interaction, since technology developers now know the boundaries, and can start pushing them again. In addition, proliferation of high-quality internet connections allows somewhat higher pipe to the client, making more interaction possible.

The next generation will not be Half-Life 2 yet, more somewhere along the lines of UT/Quake3/Half-Life. All the FPS goodies, but certain limits.

Eventually, the next, next generation, will consider FPS and real-time interaction as the norm, that's when new gameplay concepts will become viable.

But 3D FPS or real-time player/world interaction is the next inevitable step. It is currently missing from MMOs simply due to technology restrictions, same reason why first FPS games were, well, 2D and rather poorly looking.

Your conspiracy theory generator is on the blink.

"An FPS MMO company" is a description that you just made up, just now.

Anthony left SOE before SWG launched.

Originally posted by Aikes

Most of the people who were good at SWG Pre-CU had to invest a lot of time into the game. Someone who was great at the game spent many hours per day in the game. Then there were idiots like me who would play around the clock, so we had multiple accounts, guilds, cities, jedi, crafters, non-jedi, and were in need of psychological help most likely for investing so much of our personal time into a video game.

Star Wars Galaxies Dev Opens Doors

Posted by Gary on on Thursday, February 22 @ Eastern Standard Time

Developer Anthony Castoro (SWG, UO, and Codemasters) has started up a new MMO company. Heatwave Interavtive promises to combine online play with the excitement of single-player consoled games. I’m…holding…….my………breath………………

Lol, yep I can relate to that. The amount of times I was up on SWG pre-nge till 3 or 4am with work at 7am is unreal. I would say to myself when I woke up, I aint doin that ever again, then that night I would do the exact same thing. I would class myself as one of those folk who SERIOUSLY needed psychological help.

But  atleast the NGE with 1 foul stroke cured me of my addiction.

 

Originally posted by Dundee
Your conspiracy theory generator is on the blink.

"An FPS MMO company" is a description that you just made up, just now.

Anthony left SOE before SWG launched.

Shit the OP just got owned a little bit.

Originally posted by Dundee
Your conspiracy theory generator is on the blink.

"An FPS MMO company" is a description that you just made up, just now.

Anthony left SOE before SWG launched.

You mean my theories on developers not being our type of gamers or something else?

I am just reporting the news. You can investigate the company and situation pretty easily since I posted links and the infor the he was involved with SWG came from http://mogarmy.net/  ...

I also plainly said in the original post that I had a theory about the relationship we Pre_CU gamers have had with the SOE-SWG developement and management and that the Castoro story was why I brought it up... the story I read reminded me of it so I decided to ask others what they think about my "theory." Did I strike some nerve deep inside you Mr Freeman or are you just being a sarcastic arse because that is your nature?

 Here are a few tid bits from the company web page:

“Content is King. I don’t care how good your relationship with your customer is, if people don’t like what you do, the only thing you’ll have to talk about is why they aren’t buying your games.”   -Anthony Castoro

Originally posted by Frenz

Originally posted by Dundee
Your conspiracy theory generator is on the blink.

"An FPS MMO company" is a description that you just made up, just now.

Anthony left SOE before SWG launched.

Shit the OP just got owned a little bit.

He is just lashing out a little. It tells me my theory may carry some (or even a lot) of weight. The easiest thing to attack would be the note about Castoro, which was as I said, just a point a read that reminded me of a theory I had pondered over for a very long time.

Originally posted by Aikes

Originally posted by Frenz

Originally posted by Dundee
Your conspiracy theory generator is on the blink.

"An FPS MMO company" is a description that you just made up, just now.

Anthony left SOE before SWG launched.

Shit the OP just got owned a little bit.

He is just lashing out a little. It tells me my theory may carry some (or even a lot) of weight. The easiest thing to attack would be the note about Castoro, which was as I said, just a point a read that reminded me of a theory I had pondered over for a very long time.

Jeff Freeman>Aikes

Lol im just bored don't take me serious.

Originally posted by Frenz

Originally posted by Aikes

Originally posted by Frenz

Originally posted by Dundee
Your conspiracy theory generator is on the blink.

"An FPS MMO company" is a description that you just made up, just now.

Anthony left SOE before SWG launched.

Shit the OP just got owned a little bit.

He is just lashing out a little. It tells me my theory may carry some (or even a lot) of weight. The easiest thing to attack would be the note about Castoro, which was as I said, just a point a read that reminded me of a theory I had pondered over for a very long time.

Jeff Freeman>Aikes

Lol im just bored don't take me serious.

I don't mind if you flame me, but I would much rather a review and few comments about my views in the original post and in the posts that followed.

If you are going to troll, then take the high road and take a stab at the core message rather than some obtuse fractional tid-bit of the information leading to it.

 

Originally posted by NGESUCKS
A company lol. We already have fps mmo and nobody wants thats one. Anyone got his email id like to discuss a better idea for a company lets buy out SOE and call it SOB and revamp swg as world of star wars with the expansion pack  Smeds burning sensation. We could have Julio torres and Smed replace vader and luke in game and have them drive into town sqaure with limos and run in circles screaming macros that offer empty promises

You seriously don't think that there isn't a market for an MMO based on FPS combat?  You're completely nuts if you think the several million CounterStrike monkeys wouldn't be frothing at the mouth to have something semi-permanent.  Look at the buzz that Huxley is getting.  That game looks FUN.

Look, the failure of the FPS NGE doesn't mean that it can't be done, and that it can't be done right.  Just as the failure of old school SWG doesn't mean that a virtual world/sandbox style scifi based (or fantasy, for that matter) MMO can't be done either.  It just has to be done (waaaaait for it) r i g h t.  

It's entirely about execution. 

Tabula Rasa has the potential to show that twitch 'style' combat can work in an MMO.  Early heresay from people I trust say that it is exceptionally well done.  Same for Huxley:  If the gameplay is solid, then it will work (provided it has an engaging storyline to go with it).

---

Originally posted by Aikes

You know, this is an argument I made a long time ago. I made the argument that the SWG Developers were not exactly the same type of gamers that the die-hard SWG player base was.
Most of the people who were good at SWG Pre-CU had to invest a lot of time into the game.
Good in what respect?

Someone who was great at the game spent many hours per day in the game.
Great in what way pvp? making money?

Then there were idiots like me who would play around the clock, so we had multiple accounts, guilds, cities, jedi, crafters, non-jedi, and were in need of psychological help most likely for investing so much of our personal time into a video game.
The SWG-SOE teams management, developers, and gophers have to balance work, gaming, and personal time.
Don't we all?

There is just no way that they could possibly experience the game the way many of us did.
So you could only experiance Pre-Cu if you had no job and dedicated all your personal time to SWG?

It would stand to reason that people who are so time encumbered would get more enjoyement out of FPS games and games that are simple enough to allow them to just log in, play, and log out.
Yeah but some people just enjoy those games over mmo's anyway not to mention there is no monthly sub.

I have always thought that the very fact that the Devs and SWG team could not possibly experience the game and community as we did made isolated our SWG gaming community from the people we relied upon to manage and engineer our gaming world. Think about it, why would you put much thought or effort into developing a game situation you yourself either don't like, can't enjoy, or simply don't truly understand?
It's thier job and an awsome job I reckon anyone would put 100% into it, I know I would.
 
Remember how excited the developers were over the CU?
Not really, got a link?

They were almost creaming themselves talking up how much they loved the NGE. They may have been giving their honest opinions. It would mean that JFreeman is correct in his assertion that is is not one person's fault. It is the whole teams fault for destroying the game SWG once was. It would mean that our developers and the people managing them were in all reality FPS and WoW/Guild War style players because they could not possibly have the time to be true Star Wars Galaxies players.
You could say they had double the amount of time since they worked on it and could play in thier free time.

If true, this would answer a lot of questions like, why remove so much of the games immersive environment and stratagy, why go to FPS style interface, why push a more cartoonish display, why take a wonderfuly complex game and simplify it to the kiddy standard?
Could be for the reasons you said but i highly doubt it, only SOE/LEC knows.
If true, it means we were screwed over by the SOE-SWG teams selfish desire to turn the game we loved into a game that they could enjoy due to their limited game time.
Thought you said they were too busy with work and had no personal time?

Why do I bring this up?
Because you loved SWG and want it back or at least the answers, as does everyone else on this forum.

 
   
       
            Star Wars Galaxies Dev Opens Doors
       
       
            Posted by Gary on on Thursday, February 22 @ Eastern Standard Time
       
       
           
           
            Developer Anthony Castoro (SWG, UO, and Codemasters) has started up a new MMO company. Heatwave Interavtive promises to combine online play with the excitement of single-player consoled games.
           
            I’m…holding…….my………breath………………
        
   

 
I edited the thread heading so as not to confuse people. I don't know when he quit, I simply reported what was a recent news blog on another site. The theory is a different matter and I think an importent one. Thanks to Mr. Freeman for the little stab at myself for pointing out the confusion in my post that this may have caused. I hope this small token edit will suffice to show Mr. Freeman that a pre-Combat Dumb-Down fanboy can make a mistake, admit to it, correct it, and appologize for it. That is a hell of a lot more than we Pre-CU players were ever offered or given from SWG-SOE developement, but what the hell, someone has to be the stand-up guy.

---

Originally posted by Ransom73

Originally posted by NGESUCKS
A company lol. We already have fps mmo and nobody wants thats one. Anyone got his email id like to discuss a better idea for a company lets buy out SOE and call it SOB and revamp swg as world of star wars with the expansion pack  Smeds burning sensation. We could have Julio torres and Smed replace vader and luke in game and have them drive into town sqaure with limos and run in circles screaming macros that offer empty promises

You seriously don't think that there isn't a market for an MMO based on FPS combat?  You're completely nuts if you think the several million CounterStrike monkeys wouldn't be frothing at the mouth to have something semi-permanent.  Look at the buzz that Huxley is getting.  That game looks FUN.

Look, the failure of the FPS NGE doesn't mean that it can't be done, and that it can't be done right.  Just as the failure of old school SWG doesn't mean that a virtual world/sandbox style scifi based (or fantasy, for that matter) MMO can't be done either.  It just has to be done (waaaaait for it) r i g h t.  

It's entirely about execution. 

Tabula Rasa has the potential to show that twitch 'style' combat can work in an MMO.  Early heresay from people I trust say that it is exceptionally well done.  Same for Huxley:  If the gameplay is solid, then it will work (provided it has an engaging storyline to go with it).

I dunno if the people who currently play FPS's will be interested. I mean the hard core fps players. If their machine LAGS..at all..their 3000 dollar rig..and new hardware cant remove the lag entirely and give them 300+ frames per second...it would be impossible for them to enjoy it. Just the ones i know anyway.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Originally posted by Ransom73

Originally posted by NGESUCKS
A company lol. We already have fps mmo and nobody wants thats one. Anyone got his email id like to discuss a better idea for a company lets buy out SOE and call it SOB and revamp swg as world of star wars with the expansion pack  Smeds burning sensation. We could have Julio torres and Smed replace vader and luke in game and have them drive into town sqaure with limos and run in circles screaming macros that offer empty promises

You seriously don't think that there isn't a market for an MMO based on FPS combat?  You're completely nuts if you think the several million CounterStrike monkeys wouldn't be frothing at the mouth to have something semi-permanent.  Look at the buzz that Huxley is getting.  That game looks FUN.

Look, the failure of the FPS NGE doesn't mean that it can't be done, and that it can't be done right.  Just as the failure of old school SWG doesn't mean that a virtual world/sandbox style scifi based (or fantasy, for that matter) MMO can't be done either.  It just has to be done (waaaaait for it) r i g h t.  

It's entirely about execution. 

Tabula Rasa has the potential to show that twitch 'style' combat can work in an MMO.  Early heresay from people I trust say that it is exceptionally well done.  Same for Huxley:  If the gameplay is solid, then it will work (provided it has an engaging storyline to go with it).

I dunno if the people who currently play FPS's will be interested. I mean the hard core fps players. If their machine LAGS..at all..their 3000 dollar rig..and new hardware cant remove the lag entirely and give them 300+ frames per second...it would be impossible for them to enjoy it. Just the ones i know anyway.

 

That's where the 'done right' and execution comes in.

I'll fully admit that lag, latency, and a whole bunch of technical sounding terms will get in the way of a truly good FPS combat based MMO.  Tabula Rasa addresses some of this in its design (it's not a true FPS, but something sort of near it.  Hard to explain.), as does Huxley.  Additionally, broadband just hasn't made its way into the percentage of homes as it has in Europe. 

IF you can work around the inherent lag, and IF you can work around the latency, and IF you can work around <insert tech issue here>, it would work.  That's alot of IFs, I'll admit, but I imagine it's only about 5 years away.

Originally posted by Ransom73

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Originally posted by Ransom73

Originally posted by NGESUCKS
A company lol. We already have fps mmo and nobody wants thats one. Anyone got his email id like to discuss a better idea for a company lets buy out SOE and call it SOB and revamp swg as world of star wars with the expansion pack  Smeds burning sensation. We could have Julio torres and Smed replace vader and luke in game and have them drive into town sqaure with limos and run in circles screaming macros that offer empty promises

You seriously don't think that there isn't a market for an MMO based on FPS combat?  You're completely nuts if you think the several million CounterStrike monkeys wouldn't be frothing at the mouth to have something semi-permanent.  Look at the buzz that Huxley is getting.  That game looks FUN.

Look, the failure of the FPS NGE doesn't mean that it can't be done, and that it can't be done right.  Just as the failure of old school SWG doesn't mean that a virtual world/sandbox style scifi based (or fantasy, for that matter) MMO can't be done either.  It just has to be done (waaaaait for it) r i g h t.  

It's entirely about execution. 

Tabula Rasa has the potential to show that twitch 'style' combat can work in an MMO.  Early heresay from people I trust say that it is exceptionally well done.  Same for Huxley:  If the gameplay is solid, then it will work (provided it has an engaging storyline to go with it).

I dunno if the people who currently play FPS's will be interested. I mean the hard core fps players. If their machine LAGS..at all..their 3000 dollar rig..and new hardware cant remove the lag entirely and give them 300+ frames per second...it would be impossible for them to enjoy it. Just the ones i know anyway.

 

That's where the 'done right' and execution comes in.

I'll fully admit that lag, latency, and a whole bunch of technical sounding terms will get in the way of a truly good FPS combat based MMO.  Tabula Rasa addresses some of this in its design (it's not a true FPS, but something sort of near it.  Hard to explain.), as does Huxley.  Additionally, broadband just hasn't made its way into the percentage of homes as it has in Europe. 

IF you can work around the inherent lag, and IF you can work around the latency, and IF you can work around <insert tech issue here>, it would work.  That's alot of IFs, I'll admit, but I imagine it's only about 5 years away.

Oh i totally get it..i'd be there trying it out too. Im just saying..FPS players i know wont tolerate a  half of a second of a tiny twitch of what could have been lag. They'll obsess over it for hours, tear the PC apart, rebuild, reload windows, download every possible driver or whatever else you could even imagine. If that doesnt work they'll throw money at it. they are complete freaks. I can only speak for the ones i know..but a game where lag couldnt be ENTIRELY ELIMINATED..like a MMO, would not be even considered. It makes me kinda laugh thinking about those guys having breakdowns experiencing Lag on the scale that MMO's have.

Im exagerrating..a little.  it'd have to be a damn good game, and more solid of a game than i can imagine thats for sure. But, marketing works rather well on these guys too..so who knows.

Originally posted by Aikes

Originally posted by Frenz

Originally posted by Dundee
Your conspiracy theory generator is on the blink.

"An FPS MMO company" is a description that you just made up, just now.

Anthony left SOE before SWG launched.

Shit the OP just got owned a little bit.

He is just lashing out a little. It tells me my theory may carry some (or even a lot) of weight. The easiest thing to attack would be the note about Castoro, which was as I said, just a point a read that reminded me of a theory I had pondered over for a very long time.

Guilty.

This bit hit a nerve:

If true, it means we were screwed over by the SOE-SWG teams selfish desire to turn the game we loved into a game that they could enjoy due to their limited game time.

Not because there's truth to it, bit because there's an accusation in it.

It's an insult, and I was insulted.

Also,

It would mean that JFreeman is correct in his assertion that is is not one person's fault.

You're also commandeering my words to support what you want to say. "Oh, Jfreeman said it was no one person's fault. He must have meant just what I am saying, 'All developers are the children of Satan'".

Individual developers are not hive-mind borg-type aliens from another planet. They are human beings just like you. Take fifty developers and you'll wind up with 50 different preferences. Some do prefer FPS games: and some of those spend as much time playing them as any SWG vet. Others are hardcore MMO players interested in little else. Some - artists in particular - wouldn't even seem like gamers to people are hardcore as the folk in this forum.

As for Heatwave, it seemed to me you're reconstructing reality in order to fabricate evidence which supports a preconceived idea. You're picking on Anthony Castoro just because he used to work for SOE on SWG. And he quit before SWG even launched.

Heatwave's company info, focuses on the idea of combining the best elements of single-player and online gaming. That is, there's a fairly common notion that MMOs succeed on the strengths of online play in spite of being, otherwise, not very good games. No matter what kind of games they are, offline (and especially console) games do the game part better. Whether you agree with that or not, you're taking his goal to make online games which are not only online, but also actually good games, and twisting that into "FPS MMO". Most people wouldn't even equate "console game" with "FPS" in the first place.

It just seems like you're being very dishonest in order to create evidence to support an insult. The headline of this thread is not true. How can you just brush off that fact to say, "Yeh, well, what about my theory, though?" when your theory is based on the info that you just made up?

Touched a nerve?

Yes, you did. It's easy for me to be thick-skinned in the face of drive-by "burn in hell"-one-shot posts. I can even mostly ignore personal attacks people who post nothing but irrational flames.

But since you had been talking to me in other threads, this insult from you took me by surprise. Especially with "dehumanize the enemy" strategy.

There is no us versus them. It's a false distinction, like players who post versus posters who play. Game developers are mostly gamers who grew up (or soon will), and got hired to develop games (Or to code tools for game devs, or to commit acts of art, or to manage QA teams, or to do market research, or whatever). Our differences are not in terms of who we are and often not even in terms of what we do; they are definitely not in terms of what we are.

My own theory?

Companies sometimes make $elfish decision$. Sometimes quarterly reports, accountants, and market research studies are allowed to make game design decisions, because the things they say or the bottom-lines they promise are sexier and more confident than the feelings John Newbie from Design is trying to express.

Sometimes those things even design entire games.

I think that is how crap like Antz Extreme Racing and Starship Troopers the RTS get made (just what are the bugs' strategic options? Rush or Don't Rush, with Don't Rush grayed-out?).

Not (as your theory would suggest ) due to the Antz license being accidentally assigned to a team of racing-game enthusiasts who are too stupid to realize that Best Buy has shelves full of the games they like.

But rather, due to game design by Marketing powerpoints with colorful charts.

Now those are not human, and they are shitty game designers.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi
I dunno if the people who currently play FPS's will be interested. I mean the hard core fps players. If their machine LAGS..at all..their 3000 dollar rig..and new hardware cant remove the lag entirely and give them 300+ frames per second...it would be impossible for them to enjoy it. Just the ones i know anyway.

One problem with making an MMO FPS is that you're competing with FPS's, and they are excellent.

I think instead of an 'FPS MMO', you have to make an 'MMO - with lots of MMO things - and FPS combat'.

Then the problem is you cannot smoke cigarettes while playing, which won't fly in Asia.