Originally posted by Wildcat84

 

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Originally posted by Dundee

Crazy thing is, now, finally, you have a lead designer who played more pre-CU (starting prior to being on the SWG dev team) than most fans, having 5 or 6 accounts at once, paid out of his own pocket. One of the first Jedi. He liked that game a lot.

And Cao wasn't lying about BlixTev having nothing to do with NGE: Oh he worked, but he also thought every part of it that vet players hated to be a bad idea.

So even though pre-CU server roll-backs are impossible: This is the best lead designer this forum could hope for, and bonus! It sounds like the suits might stop going-for-broke with the damned thing.

SWG's major obstacle now is ... players unloading their anger at him for the mess I (and others... with supervision) made, just because he's the guy that's been handed the mop. And kneecapped. It's a savage mess.

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It is impossible to re-implement what made Pre-CU great inside the limiting NGE framework. It'd be like trying to revamp a moped into a Corvette.

So even if Blixtev WANTED to bring back Pre-CU within NGE, it can't be done, not without essentially rewriting everything again.

It is impossible to bring back the old professions, or even to change the NGE to being skill template based, the framework doesn't make that possible. Ditto the crappy, buggy, unfun combat system.

You just can't get there from here. So, what Blixtev may or may not want to do is irrelevant, it CANT be done.

The problem is, what the players don't like is the NGE itself. Until getting rid of that is on the table, no solution offered by any of the Devs will be acceptable or workable.

My main objections to the NGE are:

1. Static professions instead of open skill trees

2. Jedi not being an earned unlock.

3. A schitzo combat system that is at least 4x faster than it should be, is buggy as hell, and has the worst UI controls of any MMO on the market.

4. Crafted items not being greater than looted items in the endgame (CL90). I can live with spoon feeding looted stuff to people grinding, but the crafting masters should rule the endgame as far as supplying stuff.

5. No content

My guess is 90% of those who quit agree with most of my points above.

So, Freeman, what do you think Blixtev could possibly do to address those points while having to live within the confines of the NGE?

Answer: Very little. Oh, they can enhance crafting a little with the RE gimmick, but not substantively enough to matter. They can tweak combat a little, but not enough to matter. Expertise did little to fix the lack of a skill system. And they haven't added one iota of content to the game in nearly a year. As for Jedi, how can they possibly put that genie back in the bottle?

The problem here is the game has broken and severed arms and legs, but Blixtev only has band aids to fix them with.

You really can't blame SOE for the NGE from a realistic point of view. Membership had taken a hit and was on the decline ever since publish 9. SOE had to do something to reach a wider audience. I can't say I agree with the NGE nor do I like it, but sometimes, you need to bail for all you're worth, and sometimes, it's not good enough.

Originally posted by Koolaider

You really can't blame SOE for the NGE from a realistic point of view. Membership had taken a hit and was on the decline ever since publish 9. SOE had to do something to reach a wider audience. I can't say I agree with the NGE nor do I like it, but sometimes, you need to bail for all you're worth, and sometimes, it's not good enough.

Yes, realisticly I can. Alot of those droping numbers were from other SoE fuck ups, things like the xp nerf or the root changes kept pissing more players off for no good reason. Adding to the game instead of constantly re-working the games basic systems or undermining it's strengths (adding more and more loot to the detrement of the crafting economy) would have been a better move. Then throw in the fact that SWG, as alot of us have found out since the NGE, was a very unique game that players would have come back to because there is little else on the market that has all the PreCUs features or even the CUs features.

and all that is even before going into the way they did the NGE.

Originally posted by Shayde
99% $OE and 1% LA.

$OE designed every bit of it. LA enabled the failures and the player-screwing.

QFE

Thats exactly how I see it.    It doesnt really matter to me what LA might've asked for, wether it was higher subscription numbers, more accessibility for newer players, more of a Star Wars feel, etc etc, what matters to me is that SOE developed, pitched, and implimented absolute crap in response to those demands.

Originally posted by Wildcat84

John Smedley

Julio Torres

Jim Ward

Nancy "Reading is Bad" McIntyre

Lord Pall (whom Freeman is throwing under the bus as the true NGE architect, though everyone recalls he himself taking the credit back when he and the rest were full of it thinking NGE ws the greatest thing ever)

Jeff Freeman

The Dork Lord Heliass (true, he was just the moronic stooge who was thrown in to take the spears by the rest)

Grant McDaniel

None of those persons should ever work in gaming, nor should anyone ever buy any game produced that has one of them in the credits.

AMEN to that, and damned good advice, unless of course your a person who actually enjoys being lied to, cheated, and eventually kicked in the nads and told to move aside so that they can recruit the imaginary 10yr old kid down the street.

Originally posted by Fobok
Lucasarts, plain and simple, is to blame. It's the only logical source. The NGE was designed, and they made no secret of this, to sell more boxes. They hadn't even finished anything beyond level 30, at release.

Lucasarts makes most of their money from SWG on the box sales. Sony's sitting pretty with the station pass giving subscription money to a core pool for all the games. Thus, for a change that was made to sell more boxes, it's obvious that it'd be Lucasarts' fault.

Have to disagree with this, it wasnt LA that made the NGE, it was SOE, therefore I blame them.    The following post from the official SWG forums pretty much seals the deal for me, at least when it comes to the OPs original question, "Who is to blame for the train wreck SWG became with the NGE?"

(Link)

First a request, to those of you using this thread as your personal battleground, please take it to PM's.

So, I wanted to clarify that we did, here at SOE conceive and develop the NGE.  We did so with the best of intentions, to try and make a better game.  No blame or buck is being passed.  =)

We can, and I am sure many of us will, debate for years on end whether this was a good idea.  Personally, I believe the concept of the NGE was sound.  Some smart guys had some good ideas to make the game better, Jeff being one of them, and they went for it.  A bold move and honestly, I am happy to be a part of a company that is not afraid to try something different.

Where did we go wrong?  Delivery, we failed in our timing and communication.  That is where we let you down most, SWG faithful, and for that I truly apologize. 

Brenlo Bixiebopper
Director, Global Community Relations - SOE
---------------------------------------------
It's a rough life, but someone has to live it.

Originally posted by Koolaider

You really can't blame SOE for the NGE from a realistic point of view. Membership had taken a hit and was on the decline ever since publish 9. SOE had to do something to reach a wider audience. I can't say I agree with the NGE nor do I like it, but sometimes, you need to bail for all you're worth, and sometimes, it's not good enough.

Originally posted by Dundee

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi
I know i sound like im angry or something, im not..just my way of seeing it. I know i dont know shit about it either. Ya need to get LA to loosen up a little on the super serial NDA so maybe some wounds could be mended. Im not even really that upset SOE tried the NGE..its just when you finally saw what it was on TC and then learned that it was for people who dont even play this game, and could plainly see the obvious failure it would be, just because of it barely being ready for pre-beta let alone a live server. Its like "you dumped us for this? Total pwnge!! Ya, hi, im one of the people that got dumped for the NGE. its a great feelin . 

'Don't think I need the NDA lifted... I've got nothing more to tell you than you already know.

Thanks for sharing what info you could. Can't speak for others, but i appreciate it.  Best of luck.

Non of this is specifically pointed at you or any one person btw. And i can imagine that it does upset you to see people hatin you. But, we're basically in the same boat. It hurts us just as much to see the game you worked on for 6 years go through this. None of us wanted this. Obviously we LOVED this game and We would have loved to be swg's teams biggest fanboi's. if you guys would have given us the chance.  But, thats history now i guess.

Crazy thing is, now, finally, you have a lead designer who played more pre-CU (starting prior to being on the SWG dev team) than most fans, having 5 or 6 accounts at once, paid out of his own pocket. One of the first Jedi. He liked that game a lot.

And Cao wasn't lying about BlixTev having nothing to do with NGE: Oh he worked, but he also thought every part of it that vet players hated to be a bad idea.

So even though pre-CU server roll-backs are impossible: This is the best lead designer this forum could hope for, and bonus! It sounds like the suits might stop going-for-broke with the damned thing.

SWG's major obstacle now is ... players unloading their anger at him for the mess I (and others... with supervision) made, just because he's the guy that's been handed the mop. And kneecapped. It's a savage mess.

Can't argue with that.

all i had ever asked for was my bh missions to stop giving me targets in totally inaccessible places.    and better graphics.

Well, first let me say this:

Freeman, you may or may not have had a big hand in the NGE, but the damage of the NGE and the loss of the ONLY game on the market that actually offered me something more than a themepark "diablo/koreangrind/dungeonromp/Whack-A-Mole" type of play has made me weary.

If such a game ever arrives again, I just can't risk having you or any of the other SOE devs that in their mind thought that  "this part of the NGE is fun!!". I would not buy that game if any of those people were even within a gastanks distance of the developement.

As for LEC and SWG? When SWG was released, guess what games were advertised on Star Wars websites, Star Wars magazines, Star Wars comics and Star Wars books? Not SWG.  It was barely advertised..And yet it became quickly one of the top MMORPG's until WoW launched with a massive Add campaign(wich also featured adds in Star Wars magazines..).

By the time they started advertising SWG, it was too late, the game had been CU'ed and later NGE'ed, and too many pissed off customers were around.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Originally posted by Dundee

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi
I know i sound like im angry or something, im not..just my way of seeing it. I know i dont know shit about it either. Ya need to get LA to loosen up a little on the super serial NDA so maybe some wounds could be mended. Im not even really that upset SOE tried the NGE..its just when you finally saw what it was on TC and then learned that it was for people who dont even play this game, and could plainly see the obvious failure it would be, just because of it barely being ready for pre-beta let alone a live server. Its like "you dumped us for this? Total pwnge!! Ya, hi, im one of the people that got dumped for the NGE. its a great feelin . 

'Don't think I need the NDA lifted... I've got nothing more to tell you than you already know.

Thanks for sharing what info you could. Can't speak for others, but i appreciate it.  Best of luck.

Non of this is specifically pointed at you or any one person btw. And i can imagine that it does upset you to see people hatin you. But, we're basically in the same boat. It hurts us just as much to see the game you worked on for 6 years go through this. None of us wanted this. Obviously we LOVED this game and We would have loved to be swg's teams biggest fanboi's. if you guys would have given us the chance.  But, thats history now i guess.

Crazy thing is, now, finally, you have a lead designer who played more pre-CU (starting prior to being on the SWG dev team) than most fans, having 5 or 6 accounts at once, paid out of his own pocket. One of the first Jedi. He liked that game a lot.

And Cao wasn't lying about BlixTev having nothing to do with NGE: Oh he worked, but he also thought every part of it that vet players hated to be a bad idea.

So even though pre-CU server roll-backs are impossible: This is the best lead designer this forum could hope for, and bonus! It sounds like the suits might stop going-for-broke with the damned thing.

SWG's major obstacle now is ... players unloading their anger at him for the mess I (and others... with supervision) made, just because he's the guy that's been handed the mop. And kneecapped. It's a savage mess.

 

Can't argue with that.

i can't imagine what Blix can do to ssave it..He can try to add stuff back in but that still doesnt change the fact the gameplay is horrid.The combat engine to the horrid new UI to well just about everything.Those over the top flashy goofy effects and well the whole things just a mess..Im not even talking about the professions either they are just as horrid as the combat engine being used.So i dont see how Blix precu player/dev can do anything short of revamp.I just dont have as much hope he will change much being the powers that be wont let him..So id rather hear from SOE that a 3rd revamp is coming not what they can do to add back..3rd times a charm..

Originally posted by Dvol

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Originally posted by Dundee


Crazy thing is, now, finally, you have a lead designer who played more pre-CU (starting prior to being on the SWG dev team) than most fans, having 5 or 6 accounts at once, paid out of his own pocket. One of the first Jedi. He liked that game a lot.

And Cao wasn't lying about BlixTev having nothing to do with NGE: Oh he worked, but he also thought every part of it that vet players hated to be a bad idea.

So even though pre-CU server roll-backs are impossible: This is the best lead designer this forum could hope for, and bonus! It sounds like the suits might stop going-for-broke with the damned thing.

SWG's major obstacle now is ... players unloading their anger at him for the mess I (and others... with supervision) made, just because he's the guy that's been handed the mop. And kneecapped. It's a savage mess.

 

Can't argue with that.

i can't imagine what Blix can do to ssave it..He can try to add stuff back in but that still doesnt change the fact the gameplay is horrid.The combat engine to the horrid new UI to well just about everything.Those over the top flashy goofy effects and well the whole things just a mess..Im not even talking about the professions either they are just as horrid as the combat engine being used.So i dont see how Blix precu player/dev can do anything short of revamp.I just dont have as much hope he will change much being the powers that be wont let him..So id rather hear from SOE that a 3rd revamp is coming not what they can do to add back..3rd times a charm..

I dont think he is saying he can fix it. It almost sounds like that IS what he's saying, but i dont wanna put words in his mouth .just that some people shouldnt "unload their anger" on him cause he really doesnt deserve it cause he was against the changes too.

I wish blitz the best...but his job is as impossible as pre-cu server rollbacks as Dundee called it.(which isnt what anyone wants. I'm assuming he meant classic servers)

Who?

SOE: John (hand-job) Smedley

&

LAE: Julio (bend-over) Torres

Those are the two principle people behind the original Combat Dumb-Down and complete revamps of SWG. Truly, it started with patch 9 and then shortly there after came the mass exodus brought on by the CU.

Originally posted by HudsonD
Let's put it simply Mr Freeman, and use a nice iconic and starwarsy analogy.
As far as we're concerned, it's like you were a crewman on the deathstar when it blew up Alderaan. You might have disagreed with the move, you might have opposed it as much as possible, you might have left (or get fired) right after, but you were still on the thing when it blew up a lovely peaceful planet. That might not make you as guilty as Tarkin, or the guy that pushed the button... But you're not exactly clean either and no one here is going to forget that fact.

Originally posted by Obee
You're using the term "lie" when the term "misrinterpretation" would be more valid.  I don't think claiming your post expressed enthusiasm for the new combat system would be either a "lie" or a "misenterpretation".  You calimed as late as yesterday that you think the psuedo FPS combat system was more 'fun' than the old 'tab and spam' system.

You're using terms that indicate a growing hostility, which is bad if you're intention is to mend some fences.

Originally posted by War_Dancer
Yes, realisticly I can. Alot of those droping numbers were from other SoE fuck ups, things like the xp nerf or the root changes kept pissing more players off for no good reason. Adding to the game instead of constantly re-working the games basic systems or undermining it's strengths (adding more and more loot to the detrement of the crafting economy) would have been a better move. Then throw in the fact that SWG, as alot of us have found out since the NGE, was a very unique game that players would have come back to because there is little else on the market that has all the PreCUs features or even the CUs features.

and all that is even before going into the way they did the NGE.

Originally posted by Shayde
Not squashing bugs and a complete lack of content was the reason SWG declined.

Now who was responsible for both? Oh, that's right.. $OE!

Originally posted by wolfmann

Well, first let me say this:

Freeman, you may or may not have had a big hand in the NGE, but the damage of the NGE and the loss of the ONLY game on the market that actually offered me something more than a themepark "diablo/koreangrind/dungeonromp/Whack-A-Mole" type of play has made me weary.

If such a game ever arrives again, I just can't risk having you or any of the other SOE devs that in their mind thought that  "this part of the NGE is fun!!". I would not buy that game if any of those people were even within a gastanks distance of the developement.

As for LEC and SWG? When SWG was released, guess what games were advertised on Star Wars websites, Star Wars magazines, Star Wars comics and Star Wars books? Not SWG.  It was barely advertised..And yet it became quickly one of the top MMORPG's until WoW launched with a massive Add campaign(wich also featured adds in Star Wars magazines..).

By the time they started advertising SWG, it was too late, the game had been CU'ed and later NGE'ed, and too many pissed off customers were around.

Don't over-think this problem of who is to blame. It's so simple my 6 yr old knew what the problem was and currently still is. When a company, any company, forgets about the people who brought them to the dance, lies, cheats, steals, and decieves, then game over.

100% of the blame should be laid at the feet of SOE. Heres how I came to this point:

1. If you have integrity, you will make products that work.

2. If someone tells you to do otherwise, and you dont have the character of conviction, then you are a worthless piece of human waste.

3. If you sole motivation is profit at any means necessary then your destined to have a seat next to the devil.

For the failure of SWG look no further than the office of John Smedley. Sony needs to clean house starting with "Smed" in order to begin to earn the trust of the player-base. Until then, I will remain on the I HATE JOHN SMEDLEY CAMPAIGN.

http://johnsmedleysucks.usgameroom.com

Originally posted by Dundee

Originally posted by War_Dancer
Yes, realisticly I can. Alot of those droping numbers were from other SoE fuck ups, things like the xp nerf or the root changes kept pissing more players off for no good reason. Adding to the game instead of constantly re-working the games basic systems or undermining it's strengths (adding more and more loot to the detrement of the crafting economy) would have been a better move. Then throw in the fact that SWG, as alot of us have found out since the NGE, was a very unique game that players would have come back to because there is little else on the market that has all the PreCUs features or even the CUs features.

and all that is even before going into the way they did the NGE.

This was the point I tried to make earlier, when I said the NGE wasn't really the problem, but rather all the things that lead to that point.

But, the NGE is a problem and was a problem then just as the Combat Dumb-Down was a major problem. You took an all-encompassing game that PvErs, PvPers, and even Role Players could all become completely immersed in and which everyone loved, even if they bitched about bugs, and tried to convert it into some kind of Guild Wars/ World of Warfairies/ FPS.

In the end you only succeeded in retarding a game that was probably the best platform for next generation MMOs to a point where very few thought it was worth paying for to play the game. That is truly screwed up and now SOE has one grand reputation. That reputation is not the fault of SOE customers. That reputation is one earned by SOE, LAE, and all of the upper management involved.

I can not imagine a situation where any developer involved would be proud of what they have now made out of Star Wars Galaxies. So you have been at SOE a long time. Whose fault is that?