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Star Wars Galaxies

Star Wars Galaxies 

SWG Veteran Refuge  » Who is to blame, really?

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169 posts found
  plong

Novice Member

Joined: 7/22/04
Posts: 70

2/18/07 9:07:18 PM#21
Originally posted by Dundee
Originally posted by Wildcat84

John Smedley

Julio Torres

Jim Ward

Nancy "Reading is Bad" McIntyre

Lord Pall (whom Freeman is throwing under the bus as the true NGE architect, though everyone recalls he himself taking the credit back when he and the rest were full of it thinking NGE ws the greatest thing ever)

Jeff Freeman

The Dork Lord Heliass (true, he was just the moronic stooge who was thrown in to take the spears by the rest

Grant McDaniel


None of those persons should ever work in gaming, nor should anyone ever buy any game produced that has one of them in the credits.

The conviction with which you express your assumptions leads me to think this reply is pointless... but awell. I've been surprised, before.

I have never said Lord Pall was "the NGE" architect. "The NGE" is a lot of changes. I never "took credit" for any of them. I was quite explicit about that.

I've explained as best I could what has lead to the above misunderstanding. I believe you can "list all post by..." and find it, if you want to.

The conviction with which you express your assumptions leads me to think this reply is pointless... but awell. I've been surprised, before.

Players have so much the higher ground in this situation, I don't know why some of you ever feel it necessary to exaggerate to the point of deceit.

Just out of morbid curiosity, could I ask why you have spent so much time on this rather hostile forum?  If it is any consolation, I used to think of you right up there with dirty baby diapers however after reading between the lines I'm beginning to  think what happened to SWG is more due to gross mismanagement than anything else.
  Libblik

Novice Member

Joined: 12/31/06
Posts: 30

2/18/07 9:21:19 PM#22
Originally posted by Wildcat84

Also, Freeman, if you are still reading this... You guys had PLENTY of evidence to go on as to what the reaction to the NGE would be, just a couple months prior to the NGE when you decided to crush group XP.

In Pub 22, a change was stealthed in, without adequate explanation, which changed grouping for XP from being a benefit, to being a negative.

After less than 24 hours on live, it was retracted after server meldowns, mass cancellations and riots in game and in forum.

The same XP scheme, btw, was put BACK in force with the NGE, btw.

With that kind of reaction to a change in a single game mechanic, you guys had all the evidence in the world that your customers would NOT tolerate the NGE.

You guys should have counted yourselves lucky that you survived the CU and still kept most of your player base intact. Doing the NGE made no logical sense whatsoever if any of the ample evidence of how your players would react was considered.

It wasn't. Simply put, the NGE was designed to replace us with new players from WoW. You figured that by making Jedi free, that and that alone would get you enough subs to make up for the mass exodus. It didn't. Only after you guys figured out that new players were NOT going to be coming did you even BEGIN to offer lip service to your existing players.

To this day the vast majority of the diminished NGE player base are Pre-CU veterans, not post NGE new subscribers.

 

pwnd

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  Dundee

Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/06
Posts: 234

2/18/07 9:33:54 PM#23
Originally posted by Wildcat84
Every one of those people are to blame because any one of them could have and none of them did, stand up and say "uh, this is a BAD idea guys, if it doesn't go over, we lose almost ALL the players, perhaps something less extreme would be better, and shouldn't we make our customers PARTNERS (not victims) in this?"

You're making assumptions based on very little info. Maybe even some wrong info, considering your conclusions.

Not one of the people on this list showed leadership, despite all being IN positions of leadership.

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE on the forums was screaming "DONT DO THIS" when the NGE was announced. You guys knew then how it was going to go over. Or you should have known.


How do you know?

Which brings me to my point, the reason why I will NEVER buy anything that any of those people are associated with is because they had every opportunity to avoid the NGE disaster, but not one of them bothered to look outside their own groupthink.


Well, my loss. I'm glad you enjoyed it for the time you did.

Did the game need something at the time the NGE came out? YES.. It certainly did. Even back then people were STILL clamoring for Pre-CU. THAT is what you should have done, taken the CU game and moved it back in a Pre-CU direction.

Instead of listening to the customers you did have you only thought of the customers you didn't have but wanted. And you got what happens every time a service business goes out of it's way to shit on those who only give you money: Disaster and the worst name in the industry. Deservedly so.

Every person I named deserves scorn and disgrace. And they are all getting it.

Deservedly so.


Respectfully, I disagree.

But I also don't want to get into one of those discussions where you don't know what I can't say... so. I'll end it at that.

Mind some of the things you're saying are untrue and unfair, and directed at real people. That isn't necessary.
  Dundee

Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/06
Posts: 234

2/18/07 9:37:19 PM#24
Originally posted by plong

Just out of morbid curiosity, could I ask why you have spent so much time on this rather hostile forum?  If it is any consolation, I used to think of you right up there with dirty baby diapers however after reading between the lines I'm beginning to  think what happened to SWG is more due to gross mismanagement than anything else.

Because I spent almost six years working on SWG and it kills me that the only people who liked it, hate me.

Frequently for misinformed reasons.
  Shayde

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/05
Posts: 4551

The game isn’t designed to keep people playing." - Smed

NOW you realize that! - Shayde

2/18/07 10:03:21 PM#25
Originally posted by Dundee
Originally posted by plong

Just out of morbid curiosity, could I ask why you have spent so much time on this rather hostile forum?  If it is any consolation, I used to think of you right up there with dirty baby diapers however after reading between the lines I'm beginning to  think what happened to SWG is more due to gross mismanagement than anything else.

Because I spent almost six years working on SWG and it kills me that the only people who liked it, hate me.

Frequently for misinformed reasons.

Misinformed?

You yourself said you were the cheerleader for the nge. You said that you kept telling the powers that be that "we can do this".

Yet you claim you were innocent of all this. That you only worked on the new-player portion. That's clearly bullshit. You can't design a whole INTRODUCTION TO THE GAME without knowing the new system that it was being written for. The "NPE" as you call it was SPECIFICALLY designed for the 9 professions, not 32. Don't smokescreen us by hinting that those would be the starting professions and we'd move to the 32 from there.. that's bullshit. Jedi, BH, Spy, and Commando are CLEARLY elite classes.

Not only that, but the tutorial is CLEARLY made for the shitty 3PS shooter crap the nge is all about.

The people who made the decisions.. from the top and even down to the designers are all culpable. There was NO WAY that any thinking reasonable person at $OE could ever think that the nge was going to go over any better than the Hindenburg. They knew it from the reaction of the fans from the INSTANT it was on test. Every day the online poll results were 80% "This sucks, don't do it". There were online petitions of over 100k signatures of verified players. The forums were afire with people BEGGING that the nge would never happen.

Did you listen? Did anyone listen? No.

So now you're here trying to convince us that you had nothing to do with it.  Really?

I'm sorry. $OE's theory of saying something enough it becomes truth doesn't work outside their ivory towers.

Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.


It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled :( - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me.
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0

  Dvol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/11/07
Posts: 273

Opinions may change during online posting.E-Feelings may be hurt.**Working as intended**

2/18/07 10:03:26 PM#26
Originally posted by Dundee
Originally posted by plong

Just out of morbid curiosity, could I ask why you have spent so much time on this rather hostile forum?  If it is any consolation, I used to think of you right up there with dirty baby diapers however after reading between the lines I'm beginning to  think what happened to SWG is more due to gross mismanagement than anything else.

Because I spent almost six years working on SWG and it kills me that the only people who liked it, hate me.

Frequently for misinformed reasons.


i personaly dont hate you why would i? makes 0 sense to hate someone i dont even know..i just like to disagree with your reasons why the game had to change.Nothing more nothing less.the game you worked on for 6 years was one of the best ive ever played.One i had thought highly of dispite the bugs that plagued it..See for me its making sure Devs like yourself understand my point of view and why what you thought killed your game wasnt the core issue.So in the future some Dev team wont think SWG was a failure but a lesson in what makes a game great and what doesnt..

So Jeff for me its your comments that the combat was broken, maybe in your eyes but for me it was really what i was looking for i enjoyed the game alot because of it.I also loved the skill system alot it gave me 250 skill points to spend how i saw fit..Great concept IMO..also i dont think you guys couldve put up the original CURB and fixed the remaining bugs and then advertised the game better..See thats what i expected not the total redesigned game i got heck i had to relearn everything all over again..Not what i considered fun..If i wanted to play a WoW like game i buy that kinda game..If i want a FPS( i bought battlefront) id by a FPS see were im going with this?

  HudsonD

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/06
Posts: 26

2/18/07 10:15:39 PM#27
Originally posted by Dundee

Because I spent almost six years working on SWG and it kills me that the only people who liked it, hate me.

Frequently for misinformed reasons.
Ironic, isn't it ?
The only true fans you had now hate you with a passion, and you can't even tell them why they're wrong... Man, I would sympathize with you, if I didn't hate you already, that is.

Wildcat84 might be a little blunt, or even zealous, but he does represent very well how most of us former fans think.

Tiggs is still fairly popular around here, despite not having been that competent, because she was fired during the NGE. Most assume she was fired because she went against the company line, maybe it's wrong, but people do admire that kind of courage.
Maybe you did speak against the NGE, maybe you did try your best to advert that disaster. Maybe some others did. But save for some mysterious departs we have no evidence of that.

The CU was a disaster on day 1, clearly rushed way too soon. And everyone who tested it before it went live could attest. And yet it went on live as is. Despite this, SWG survived, and was somewhat recovering when the NGE was announced. *Everyone*, and I do mean everyone who tried it, could see from miles away that this was both way more ambitious than the CU, and yet even more rushed.
To this day, we still don't know how this could have happened, how such a massive fuck-up can have occured, when all the lights were red ? So of course we're speculating, this  is the only thing we have, because those that know, don't tell. So we look at the results, and we try to infer how things must have been to  lead to such  a FUBAR.... and this isn't really putting you SOE guys in a favorable light.

"Peace through superior firepower"

  Silversaber

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 14

2/18/07 10:23:07 PM#28
Originally posted by Dundee
Originally posted by Wildcat84
Every one of those people are to blame because any one of them could have and none of them did, stand up and say "uh, this is a BAD idea guys, if it doesn't go over, we lose almost ALL the players, perhaps something less extreme would be better, and shouldn't we make our customers PARTNERS (not victims) in this?"

You're making assumptions based on very little info. Maybe even some wrong info, considering your conclusions.

Not one of the people on this list showed leadership, despite all being IN positions of leadership.

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE on the forums was screaming "DONT DO THIS" when the NGE was announced. You guys knew then how it was going to go over. Or you should have known.


How do you know?

Which brings me to my point, the reason why I will NEVER buy anything that any of those people are associated with is because they had every opportunity to avoid the NGE disaster, but not one of them bothered to look outside their own groupthink.


Well, my loss. I'm glad you enjoyed it for the time you did.

Did the game need something at the time the NGE came out? YES.. It certainly did. Even back then people were STILL clamoring for Pre-CU. THAT is what you should have done, taken the CU game and moved it back in a Pre-CU direction.

Instead of listening to the customers you did have you only thought of the customers you didn't have but wanted. And you got what happens every time a service business goes out of it's way to shit on those who only give you money: Disaster and the worst name in the industry. Deservedly so.

Every person I named deserves scorn and disgrace. And they are all getting it.

Deservedly so.


Respectfully, I disagree.

But I also don't want to get into one of those discussions where you don't know what I can't say... so. I'll end it at that.

Mind some of the things you're saying are untrue and unfair, and directed at real people. That isn't necessary.


Mr. Freeman, you say that we are totally ignorant of  what went on when the NGE was pushed onto us. That we are lashing out at people that are not deserving of such scorn.

This may be so, but unfortunately for you, its going to stay that way. Someone is to blame for the travesty of what the NGE has done to a game a heck of lot players loved.  Unfortuanatly without and hard hard facts because everyone involved have been so tight lipped, you and all the others named that was in the upper management in charge of the game when the NGE was pushed onto us are going to be the default target of our wrath.

Deal with it.

I Loved the orgional game. I was a part of the origional forums that was started WAY before the first Beta of the game, argueing with Holocron and other players on the various aspects and features of what became the game.

What you guys did to it was, and still is, completely unforgivable.

SoE's reputation took a HUGE hit with the NGE fiasco. And so did yours, like it or not.

  Dundee

Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/06
Posts: 234

2/18/07 10:48:29 PM#29
Originally posted by Shayde

Misinformed?

Oh yes.

You yourself said you were the cheerleader for the nge. You said that you kept telling the powers that be that "we can do this".

No, I did not. I wasn't writing about the NGE, which is a massive number of changes. I never said that, others have said it about me.

The context in which the line you're taking to mean "I cheer-led the NGE" was first, not about "the NGE", it was about one of the changes which went in with all the rest of the NGE changes.. Second, the statement itself was my attempt to avoid taking credit for the combat interface style. Since I wasn't the one who made it, I didn't want co-worker s (any of them), reading my blog and thinking I was taking credit for their work. I designed and implemented very little of anything in the NGE, and I didn't want that blog post to come off as my taking credit for it all.

Well, no worries there. Turns out no one actually wanted credit for it.

But if you're going to tell people what I did and what I said, you could at least base it on my posts, rather than other peoples' posts about what they think my post said.


Yet you claim you were innocent of all this. That you only worked on the new-player portion.

No, I did not say either of the above. See what you're doing here?

 That's clearly bullshit. You can't design a whole INTRODUCTION TO THE GAME without knowing the new system that it was being written for. The "NPE" as you call it was SPECIFICALLY designed for the 9 professions, not 32. Don't smokescreen us by hinting that those would be the starting professions and we'd move to the 32 from there.. that's bullshit. Jedi, BH, Spy, and Commando are CLEARLY elite classes.

Didn't say they'd be starting classes. I said I didn't think I could explain how that might have worked.

So this conversational tangent has to end with you calling me a liar and my saying, am not.

Not only that, but the tutorial is CLEARLY made for the shitty 3PS shooter crap the nge is all about.

And this  one as well, since there's little point typing things you won't believe anyway.

The people who made the decisions.. from the top and even down to the designers are all culpable.

Respectfully, I disagree. Particularly regarding the designers who were vociferously opposed.

There was NO WAY that any thinking reasonable person at $OE could ever think that the nge was going to go over any better than the Hindenburg. They knew it from the reaction of the fans from the INSTANT it was on test. Every day the online poll results were 80% "This sucks, don't do it". There were online petitions of over 100k signatures of verified players. The forums were afire with people BEGGING that the nge would never happen.

Did you listen?

You say that as though there were no reason for it beyond the malice in my heart. As if I thought to myself how delightful it would be to ignore you for one year, then pop-in for a chat just for laughs.

Did anyone listen? No.

So now you're here trying to convince us that you had nothing to do with it.  Really?

I haven't said that, either.

It's the Architect Of Evil and Banished From Games and Cheerleader Of Destruction stuff that I'm saying is a little over the top.

I'm sorry. $OE's theory of saying something enough it becomes truth doesn't work outside their ivory towers.

Comparably, see above.
  severius

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/10/04
Posts: 1529

2/18/07 11:35:05 PM#30
Originally posted by Dundee
Originally posted by Shayde

Misinformed?

Oh yes.

You yourself said you were the cheerleader for the nge. You said that you kept telling the powers that be that "we can do this".

No, I did not. I wasn't writing about the NGE, which is a massive number of changes. I never said that, others have said it about me.

The context in which the line you're taking to mean "I cheer-led the NGE" was first, not about "the NGE", it was about one of the changes which went in with all the rest of the NGE changes.. Second, the statement itself was my attempt to avoid taking credit for the combat interface style. Since I wasn't the one who made it, I didn't want co-worker s (any of them), reading my blog and thinking I was taking credit for their work. I designed and implemented very little of anything in the NGE, and I didn't want that blog post to come off as my taking credit for it all.

Well, no worries there. Turns out no one actually wanted credit for it.

But if you're going to tell people what I did and what I said, you could at least base it on my posts, rather than other peoples' posts about what they think my post said.


Yet you claim you were innocent of all this. That you only worked on the new-player portion.

No, I did not say either of the above. See what you're doing here?

 That's clearly bullshit. You can't design a whole INTRODUCTION TO THE GAME without knowing the new system that it was being written for. The "NPE" as you call it was SPECIFICALLY designed for the 9 professions, not 32. Don't smokescreen us by hinting that those would be the starting professions and we'd move to the 32 from there.. that's bullshit. Jedi, BH, Spy, and Commando are CLEARLY elite classes.

Didn't say they'd be starting classes. I said I didn't think I could explain how that might have worked.

So this conversational tangent has to end with you calling me a liar and my saying, am not.

Not only that, but the tutorial is CLEARLY made for the shitty 3PS shooter crap the nge is all about.

And this  one as well, since there's little point typing things you won't believe anyway.

The people who made the decisions.. from the top and even down to the designers are all culpable.

Respectfully, I disagree. Particularly regarding the designers who were vociferously opposed.

There was NO WAY that any thinking reasonable person at $OE could ever think that the nge was going to go over any better than the Hindenburg. They knew it from the reaction of the fans from the INSTANT it was on test. Every day the online poll results were 80% "This sucks, don't do it". There were online petitions of over 100k signatures of verified players. The forums were afire with people BEGGING that the nge would never happen.

Did you listen?

You say that as though there were no reason for it beyond the malice in my heart. As if I thought to myself how delightful it would be to ignore you for one year, then pop-in for a chat just for laughs.

Did anyone listen? No.

So now you're here trying to convince us that you had nothing to do with it.  Really?

I haven't said that, either.

It's the Architect Of Evil and Banished From Games and Cheerleader Of Destruction stuff that I'm saying is a little over the top.

I'm sorry. $OE's theory of saying something enough it becomes truth doesn't work outside their ivory towers.

Comparably, see above.

It isn't just I that read your blog post, which isnt available anymore, as saying that you had been the champion of the action style game but,  it was specifically stated that you called them into your space and said look at this.  They said we cant do that.  And you said yes we can, we have to, its too cool for us not to.  And for the rest of the time while it was being worked on someone was running around saying to everyone that had second thoughts that this was too cool not to do it.  You can come around a year after said post and say no no that wasnt what you meant.  However, since that day that it was posted, from here to the suckboards and back you quietly accepted all blame and now you want us to believe that you are innocent?

Seriously, if it wasn't the new combat interface and "star warsy" and "iconic" action of the NGE then what was so "cool" and so much "fun" that you had to, day in and day out, convince others that you were going in the right direction.  Or were you speaking for someone else in your blog and the "I's" were really a literary device?

What I really really want to know is the precise timeline of the events at SWG.  This is what I remember:
Buggy Launch
Nerfs, unnerfs, double nerfs, renerfs
Jedi
jedi nerf, unnerf, renerf
BH buff, jedi nerf, development switches fully to BH Jedi
First talk of Combat Revamp
CSR's directed to say "We understand your frustration but all will be made right with the Combat Revamp"
stall
stall
stall
Combat Revamp thrown out for the Combat Upgrade (everyone is playing wow and having so much fun so we need to make SWG more like wow - Smedley paraphrased)
exodus from the game
A good number of the original devs leave
Combat Upgrade released, people start coming back
New CH system
some fixes, more people coming in, E3! Capital Ship combat!!! Great promises made
even more people returning to the game plus a slew of new people
Lots of bugs left to fester (mining ship anyone? :) )
Rumors of the NGE start to surface here, rumors of the death of CH
TooW released and a CH necklace from the Cho Dun Cube!!!
Green Marine and a handful of other designers and devs up and quit
NGE slammed into everyone's face
Mass exodus from the game

Where did the development of the NGE start hmmm?  Was the CU just a ruse to get people back into the game and enjoying themselves? Was it in development alongside the CU by a small inexperienced group of devs, is that why there was the exodus of the original devs and designers?

Your statement in the previous thread about devs leaving to go to new projects as a common occurence is fundamentally flawed unless you are talking about SOE in general.  Especially in the MMO business a good number of those departures are because of people high up that force devs to abandon their vision.  Richard Garriott and Starr Long and those folks didnt leave EA because they were bored of the Ultima franchise, they left because of the execs at EA not knowing thier ass from a hole in the ground.  The folks at mythic have all been working there for close to a decade now with no departures to speak of.  The folks at funcom are all pretty much the original devs that started out with anarchy online those many many years ago.  Hell, even Turbine is made up of the original crew of devs that released Asheron's Call. 


  Genwa

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/06
Posts: 157

2/18/07 11:36:47 PM#31
Originally posted by Dundee

Because I spent almost six years working on SWG and it kills me that the only people who liked it, hate me.

Frequently for misinformed reasons.
You and the rest of SWG team, who had point in NGE, will always be remembered as "Killer of a great game!"

It doesn't mean game was great or it doesn't mean if it was you or your friends who actually decided it. But, they've chosen the victim.

I think even Smed knows that PreCU was more than a game for people. It's been 2 years and people still beg for it. Just check this forum, full of threads about PreCU, tons of posts etc.

Just sit down and think; why do these people show respect to Raph Koster, even he was also a SWG dev, but they don't like you, helios, chris cao or julio torres...

All of you know how to remove that tag, but as you said; maybe IP problem, maybe lack of developers, maybe something else... You'll be hated 'till people see what they want.
And if it ever comes with Emu, along with SOE, you guys will be hated more... I can imagine: "These amateur coders could make it but SOE couldn't!"

  theCandle

Novice Member

Joined: 12/22/06
Posts: 39

2/19/07 12:11:08 AM#32

I didn't read every single post that's ballooned from this, cause it's easy to see the same type of posts over this game as i've come across in the past.

I'm currently playing SWG and enjoying it.

I've gotten used to the idea that i basically don't have control over what changes in the online games, i guess even the developers don't have total control over their own game.

Things always change and nothing's perfect, personally i'm just enjoying the things about the game that make it seem very starwars like to me, all the details in every single visual element in game and the voices the sounds, the areas all very much like i would have expected it to be.

I came in after CU and NGE so i'm not going to compare or any of that i'm just coming in lately and playing and just enjoying the ride for what it's worth.

I guess it all boils down to playing in someone elses sandbox.  George Lucas created the original ideas the people from SOE have put their two cents in and tried to make the SWG universe a working game and the people that are players feel left out which they are because not everyone can be on the development team nor make the game exactly how they expect it to be.

Lots of people want the game a certain way and then others want it to remain as it is, it's not possible to please everyone all the time, just not going to happen.

If you loved the game then maybe take what good memories you got and keep them, I'm just playing in the game lately doing my thing and when i tire of the game i move on to another online or offline game, i mean if the game doesn't suite me i try and find one that does.  I don't like to get overly complicated about it.  It either takes care of itself or i move on. 

In all fairness though i'm liking how the game feels and plays to me and the depth of the world in general..it's a good ride for how long it lasts.

  User Deleted
2/19/07 12:15:43 AM#33
Originally posted by Dundee
Originally posted by plong

Just out of morbid curiosity, could I ask why you have spent so much time on this rather hostile forum?  If it is any consolation, I used to think of you right up there with dirty baby diapers however after reading between the lines I'm beginning to  think what happened to SWG is more due to gross mismanagement than anything else.

Because I spent almost six years working on SWG and it kills me that the only people who liked it, hate me.

Frequently for misinformed reasons.


I dont hate you. You apologized and thats good enough for me. But, i was under the impression that most of the devs at soe hated us. I mean you dont gamble with your loved ones do ya? 

Well it kills us that SOE/LA did. And on something anyone could see was in no shape to do anything but make people uninstall.(NGE LAUNCH) But, hey, thats business right?  Cheaper to gut the game and change your target audience than invest in your own company's creation and all the hard work of its employees that went into this game. To give them what it takes so they can give their customers what they promised. To make the best god damn game out there. But, that was too risky i guess. Glad they could find the money to invest in Vanguard though. Got millions of dollars to bring a frakenstien to life, but none for the the pre-cu.

 I know i sound like im angry or something, im not..just my way of seeing it. I know i dont know shit about it either. Ya need to get LA to loosen up a little on the super serial NDA so maybe some wounds could be mended. Im not even really that upset SOE tried the NGE..its just when you finally saw what it was on TC and then learned that it was for people who dont even play this game, and could plainly see the obvious failure it would be, just because of it barely being ready for pre-beta let alone a live server. Its like "you dumped us for this? Total pwnge!! Ya, hi, im one of the people that got dumped for the NGE. its a great feelin .  Thats like being canceled for the Tony Danza show. It sucked. Sorry, i know you worked on the NGE..but thats bullshit them putting that fetus on Live servers.

Id at least say this for the swg community and for "the pre-cu"...together they formed a community with a bond so tight that it still exists 1.5 years after they were given up on by SOE and 2 years after the last day of the original game.

Non of this is specifically pointed at you or any one person btw. And i can imagine that it does upset you to see people hatin you. But, we're basically in the same boat. It hurts us just as much to see the game you worked on for 6 years go through this. None of us wanted this. Obviously we LOVED this game and We would have loved to be swg's teams biggest fanboi's. if you guys would have given us the chance.  But, thats history now i guess.

  Dundee

Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/06
Posts: 234

2/19/07 1:22:30 AM#34
Originally posted by severius
It isn't just I that read your blog post, which isnt available anymore, as saying that you had been the champion of the action style game but,

That is not what it said.

 it was specifically stated that you called them into your space and said look at this.

It didn't say that either.

They said we cant do that.  And you said yes we can, we have to, its too cool for us not to.  And for the rest of the time while it was being worked on someone was running around saying to everyone that had second thoughts that this was too cool not to do it.

You have a lot of the words that I used, but not in the order that I used them. The above is not what I wrote.

 You can come around a year after said post and say no no that wasnt what you meant.

That isn't even what I wrote, let alone what I meant.

 However, since that day that it was posted, from here to the suckboards and back you quietly accepted all blame

I couldn't say jack while still working at SOE. Now I can say ja.

and now you want us to believe that you are innocent?

That's ok, I don't want to impose.

Seriously, if it wasn't the new combat interface and "star warsy" and "iconic" action of the NGE then what was so "cool" and so much "fun" that you had to, day in and day out, convince others that you were going in the right direction.

I never said that happened. Other people read some words I wrote, and then made up a story which you must have read.

 Or were you speaking for someone else in your blog and the "I's" were really a literary device?

It sounds like they were someone's literary device.

What I really really want to know is the precise timeline of the events at SWG.  This is what I remember:
Buggy Launch
  • I started working on JtL here. Different floor, out of the loop, etc. Wrote this already in this forum just this weekend.
Nerfs, unnerfs, double nerfs, renerfs
Jedi
jedi nerf, unnerf, renerf
BH buff, jedi nerf, development switches fully to BH Jedi
First talk of Combat Revamp
CSR's directed to say "We understand your frustration but all will be made right with the Combat Revamp"
stall
stall
stall
Combat Revamp thrown out for the Combat Upgrade (everyone is playing wow and having so much fun so we need to make SWG more like wow - Smedley paraphrased)
  • JtL launched around here, I think?
  • I started working on RotW, shortly thereafter.
exodus from the game
A good number of the original devs leave
  • No offense, but the players never had a good sense of how many devs were on the team, let alone what "a good number" of them were. Players are overly sensitive to public-facing folk: Forum Mods, Community Mgrs, Forum-focused Producers, and so on. It's possible for team restructuring to look like dev departures to the players, even if they're the result of the opposite.
  • The team was as big (and expensive) here as it would ever get.
Combat Upgrade released, people start coming back
  • The number of subscribers went up, but just a little. Then they started back down.
New CH system
some fixes, more people coming in, E3! Capital Ship combat!!! Great promises made
  • The number of subscribers was headed down.
even more people returning to the game plus a slew of new people
  • The number of subscribers was headed down.
Lots of bugs left to fester (mining ship anyone? :) )
Rumors of the NGE start to surface here, rumors of the death of CH

We almost didn't have pets, you know? No CH's, BioEng's, DriodEng's, and Faction NPCs...

My main character was a Ranger/CH/TKA before NGE. And I've been accused not only of making the NGE, but of making it just for me.

Like I couldn't figure out how to delete my character from the char select screen?

TooW released and a CH necklace from the Cho Dun Cube!!!
Green Marine and a handful of other designers and devs up and quit

  • Green Marine's departure sucked. I couldn't believe the Smuggling System was slipping away again. I vowed then to track him down and work for him one day.
  • How come when I quit you guys all grave dance and assume I got fired, but these other devs all "up and quit"? I can't say one way or the other, of course, but what gives with the double standard, there?
NGE slammed into everyone's face
Mass exodus from the game

Where did the development of the NGE start hmmm?

I cannot say. Sony Ninjas would disappear me.

 Was the CU just a ruse to get people back into the game and enjoying themselves? Was it in development alongside the CU by a small inexperienced group of devs, is that why there was the exodus of the original devs and designers?

Can't talk about that, I think.

Your statement in the previous thread about devs leaving to go to new projects as a common occurence is fundamentally flawed unless you are talking about SOE in general.  Especially in the MMO business a good number of those departures are because of people high up that force devs to abandon their vision.  Richard Garriott and Starr Long and those folks didnt leave EA because they were bored of the Ultima franchise,

I'm talking about the game industry in general.

That you'd go right for such high profile names demonstrates the point about players' hyper-sensitivity to public-facing developers.
  Dundee

Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/06
Posts: 234

2/19/07 1:31:50 AM#35
Just sit down and think; why do these people show respect to Raph Koster, even he was also a SWG dev, but they don't like you, helios, chris cao or julio torres...

Wait. You guys don't like me?
  Dundee

Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/06
Posts: 234

2/19/07 1:50:45 AM#36
Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi
I know i sound like im angry or something, im not..just my way of seeing it. I know i dont know shit about it either. Ya need to get LA to loosen up a little on the super serial NDA so maybe some wounds could be mended. Im not even really that upset SOE tried the NGE..its just when you finally saw what it was on TC and then learned that it was for people who dont even play this game, and could plainly see the obvious failure it would be, just because of it barely being ready for pre-beta let alone a live server. Its like "you dumped us for this? Total pwnge!! Ya, hi, im one of the people that got dumped for the NGE. its a great feelin 

'Don't think I need the NDA lifted... I've got nothing more to tell you than you already know.

Non of this is specifically pointed at you or any one person btw. And i can imagine that it does upset you to see people hatin you. But, we're basically in the same boat. It hurts us just as much to see the game you worked on for 6 years go through this. None of us wanted this. Obviously we LOVED this game and We would have loved to be swg's teams biggest fanboi's. if you guys would have given us the chance.  But, thats history now i guess.


Crazy thing is, now, finally, you have a lead designer who played more pre-CU (starting prior to being on the SWG dev team) than most fans, having 5 or 6 accounts at once, paid out of his own pocket. One of the first Jedi. He liked that game a lot.

And Cao wasn't lying about BlixTev having nothing to do with NGE: Oh he worked, but he also thought every part of it that vet players hated to be a bad idea.

So even though pre-CU server roll-backs are impossible: This is the best lead designer this forum could hope for, and bonus! It sounds like the suits might stop going-for-broke with the damned thing.

SWG's major obstacle now is ... players unloading their anger at him for the mess I (and others... with supervision) made, just because he's the guy that's been handed the mop. And kneecapped. It's a savage mess.
  Obee

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/06
Posts: 1560

2/19/07 2:00:45 AM#37
Originally posted by Dundee

  • How come when I quit you guys all grave dance and assume I got fired, but these other devs all "up and quit"? I can't say one way or the other, of course, but what gives with the double standard, there?


Because many players liked the deves they think "up and quit" and have your blog post where you say you had to convince "The Man" that the NGE combat system was too fun not to implement that makes them hope you were fired.  You're the only dev who worked on part of the NGE that has admitted to having a role in it (and you're blog post made it seem like you were gung ho about the NGE, wether you intended it to or not).  Like it or not, you're currently the only dev who has painted a target on himself and you're going to take a few lumps because of it.  Maybe in the future, as more of the why and how of the NGE becomes known, you might be seen in a better light.  But since you can't actually come out give specifics about what happened, you've entered into a conversation where you're not going to be able to 'clear your name'.

If it makes you feel any better, I don't think you're as big of a douchebag as I did before our conversation here.  I remember you from the old UO newsgroup, and actually remember interacting with you a few times on the Lake Superior server.  I am disappointed a bit by the fact that you seem to have changed from the advocate of players you were back then to more of an advocate of the developers you are now.  I understand why that has happened, you being a developer yourself now, but it does seem like you have 'forgotten your roots' as it were.


  MrArchy

Novice Member

Joined: 2/12/06
Posts: 645

"The NGE sucks." - Me

"SWG NGE is the fools folly..." - JestorRodo

2/19/07 2:03:02 AM#38

 

Originally posted by Dundee


"So even though pre-CU server roll-backs are impossible..."

 

Why is this the case?

Every former SWG-junkie who is a techie (many of whom are rather talented) all state this is a lie.  I myself, while no Grandmaster of the Gaming Industry, have dabbled in enough computer-related minutiae that I myself cannot fathom why a roll-back is technically impossible.  So please - once and for all, clearly state why the potential of a roll-back is always declared to be impossible.  Did some $OE lapdog do something as wholly stupid as delete all examples of past, untainted non-NGE code?  Is there a legal reason this is "impossible" rather than a technical one?  Is there some other explanation (did Darth Smedley bring imbalance into the Force along with the NGE)?  I'd like to hear this point clearly, concisely, and definitively explained.

SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server
NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005
Now Playing: World of Warcrack
Forum Terrorist

  cbas

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/07
Posts: 112

"You are a twatwaffle"

2/19/07 2:03:33 AM#39

I have no opinion of you either way.  As for updates and crap I was perfectly happy as a Doc/Chef and I'd even PvP.  I gladly took the role as cannon fodder in the name of protecting the great and benevolant Empire.  Anyhow.  All I wanted out of a combat "update" was for ranged weapons to be equal to or greater in range than a CM could toss a grenade (they could put it up to 85m's with experimentation vs. 65m's for weapons).  That was pretty much it, I accepted all the screwed up quests and such, bit nooooooo! it all had to go *pfft*. 

Ah well. Nice to see you're posting BTW.

Oh yes and yes there are folks who still go on about pre CU guess that goes to show you that they did do something right when it was released.  It was the "improvements" that did not sit well for us.

  Obee

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/06
Posts: 1560

2/19/07 2:04:50 AM#40
Originally posted by Dundee


So even though pre-CU server roll-backs are impossible: This is the best lead designer this forum could hope for, and bonus! It sounds like the suits might stop going-for-broke with the damned thing.



Unfortunatly, that isn't good news.  They have decided to stick with the worst incarnation of the game.

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