Originally posted by Vrazule

I've had it with thier business models.  I'm sick and tired of developers with chips on their shoulders who are unbelievably adversarial with casuals and our desires.  I've given up on the whole genre and will not likely return in the near future.  I'll consider subscribing to a MMO, if and only if it doesn't include any form of raiding period.  Until they create a MMO that caters to the casual play style from beginning to end, they won't get another dime from me.

/duel Dan Fortier.

The overwhelming majority NEVER raid in the endgame.  Raiding exist BECAUSE devs want to keep some players hooked and they appeal to the worst players, social gankers.  Bearing FoH or LoS or AL?  You're kidding me?  This is a TINY MINORITY, and a social gankers minority on top of that!  Yes, I am a tiny little boy who cry at about been stealed my grouping-toys...however everything rational in me tell me that I am right and that it is unfair!

Casuals they love invites, offers, and options.  These guilds are doing the OPPOSITE of what the casuals want.  You have to follow rules A, B and C which are all turning you into a cold jerk!  They are removing options, they insist that someone must have A, B or C to even group them/join them.  These guilds hate to do PUGs, casuals love to do PUGs...and I am honestly happy to provide them a PUG if I can.  These guilds, they would DESTROY loot rather than sell it to casuals, they have done it on many occasions and I was a witness and I find these guys deserving of nothing but raw hatred.

Raiding in it actual form is appealing mostly to the social gankers...  Good raiding could be built, but it would first have to not be enforced on anyone.  Best groupers deserve to be groupers!  Not social gankers!  Long ago, PvP-makers learn to not listen to gankers who request open FFA with full looting; they seem to be unable to make the same for PvE.  Both results in the same situation, the powerfull abuse the needy.  A powerfull player should lead by example no matter how silly this sound, not be rude with new players...and uber guilds are rude to everyone who doesn't raid with THEM; and they are usually rudes among themselves as well!  These guilds even have rules that you have to DITCH your group regardless of anything else, come on, how more of a jerk can these be?

Originally posted by xrebel

Originally posted by Vrazule

I've had it with thier business models.  I'm sick and tired of developers with chips on their shoulders who are unbelievably adversarial with casuals and our desires.  I've given up on the whole genre and will not likely return in the near future.  I'll consider subscribing to a MMO, if and only if it doesn't include any form of raiding period.  Until they create a MMO that caters to the casual play style from beginning to end, they won't get another dime from me.

I understand your feelings but think they are a bit dramatic...

Your problem could be solved just by adding equivalent small group/solo content (that understandably takes proportionally longer) but that involves the same level of rewards.

Or just by improving the raiding model.

I'm not sure abolishing raiding completely will ever happen, so I hope for the sake of your MMO career there can be another way to fix the issue for you.

LOL.

This player is right.  Raiding can't be enforced.  Raiding DOESN'T deserve any grouping tools.  Best groupers have to be groupers.

Originally posted by Anofalye

/duel Dan Fortier.

 

The overwhelming majority NEVER raid in the endgame.  Raiding exist BECAUSE devs want to keep some players hooked and they appeal to the worst players, social gankers.  Bearing FoH or LoS or AL?  You're kidding me?  This is a TINY MINORITY, and a social gankers minority on top of that!  Yes, I am a tiny little boy who cry at about been stealed my grouping-toys...however everything rational in me tell me that I am right and that it is unfair!

 

Casuals they love invites, offers, and options.  These guilds are doing the OPPOSITE of what the casuals want.  You have to follow rules A, B and C which are all turning you into a cold jerk!  They are removing options, they insist that someone must have A, B or C to even group them/join them.  These guilds hate to do PUGs, casuals love to do PUGs...and I am honestly happy to provide them a PUG if I can.  These guilds, they would DESTROY loot rather than sell it to casuals, they have done it on many occasions and I was a witness and I find these guys deserving of nothing but raw hatred.

 

Raiding in it actual form is appealing mostly to the social gankers...  Good raiding could be built, but it would first have to not be enforced on anyone.  Best groupers deserve to be groupers!  Not social gankers!  Long ago, PvP-makers learn to not listen to gankers who request open FFA with full looting; they seem to be unable to make the same for PvE.  Both results in the same situation, the powerfull abuse the needy.  A powerfull player should lead by example no matter how silly this sound, not be rude with new players...and uber guilds are rude to everyone who doesn't raid with THEM; and they are usually rudes among themselves as well!  These guilds even have rules that you have to DITCH your group regardless of anything else, come on, how more of a jerk can these be?

Originally posted by Kraetus

MMOs won't radically evolve until we return to a model that emphasizes playing the game for the sake of the gameplay itself.  Until MMO designers start creating truly engaging MMOs, the main attraction of which is merely the enjoyment of the gameplay (as is the attraction for almost any game outside this genre) regardless of outside rewards and motivations, we're going to be mired in the same stagnant gameplay we've been seeing since the late 90s.  Fortunately, there are a few brave souls who are working towards this very goal in 2-3 upcoming games, advancement of gameplay has taken a backseat to all else, and I fear that we will have to flounder through another 3-4 "generations" before we see what MMOs can really do for mass entertainment.

I must say I love MMOs.  I have played most of them since UO, EQ, DAoc, till present day MMOs.  I Hate PvE raids.  At first, it was cool and exciting to kill a dragon, be the first in game to see a certain locaiton in a game, or get that uber loot.  But, for some reason game designers think that we players want to raid for 6-12 hours at a time, they think we want to have to kill a boss 50+ times to get the item we are looking for, and they think we enjoy how mmos are implementing end  game content.

My hatred of time consuming raiding has pushed me towards pvp games.  I would rather fight a dynamic war against other intelligent players than some over scripted googleplex hitpoint having immune to everything dragon.  I still enjoy MMOs, I just prefer games where the end game content is PVP related.

I will not play the eq, eq2, wow, or vanguard style raid games anymore.  I like the games with mass pvp, realmwars, real human opponents, and objectives that players can work as a team towards while opposing other players trying to achieve those same goals.  I have played many pvp oriented games such as UO, daoc, planetside, eve, ect...  and I am still searching for a game that gets the open pvp style of game right.  I am looking for a polished game, with true player competition.  A game that provides a battliefeild for players to script thier own wars as opposed to a scripted war for players to take place in.  A pvp game where there is definate and clearcut goals, rewards, and winners (for the time being).  I can't think of one pvp mmo where you can win a war. (maybe because there are no winners in war? but thats a differnt discussion.)  I dream of the day a company like Id software decides to do an open PvP sci-fi mmo with a persisant world(s) and fair, competative, well designed combat.  A game hasnt pulled if off yet, but someday...  and I'll be eager to play it.

Just say no to PvE raiding.

quote from article:

"Well it's easy to make broad statements about how raiding is boring and overused, but the simple fact is that raiding exists in games BECAUSE people do enjoy it. Call them the silent majority if you like but since DKP actually meant killing dragons in EverQuest, most of the really successful MMOs have has raiding in some form or another. I personally don't look forward to farming instances for days for drops, but a large segment of gamers apparently have no problem with it judging by the massive number of players still doing it in World of Warcraft."

I wish people would research this before they post this like its the law. If you woulda researched hard numbers then you would came across the Blizzard presentation whereas they claim less than 5% of their populace raids. I personally dont know any raiders out of like 10 WoW players

Originally posted by Vrazule

Sometimes I wish the whole raid issue would just go away.   You can't even find a casual game that doesn't force you to raid end game.  Even City of Heroes (which I consider to be one of the most casual friendly MMOs on the market) forces you to raid Hamidon in order to upgrade your powers beyond what casual play can do.  Ultimately, I'm sick and tired of the developing companies completely ignoring a significant portion of their market just so they can add some false sense of longevity to their games.  Why do casuals have this stigma of being flighty and moving from game to game?  Its because these developers refuse to actually cater to us, so why the hell should we stick around or show loyalty to any company that screws over our play style.

I've had it with thier business models.  I'm sick and tired of developers with chips on their shoulders who are unbelievably adversarial with casuals and our desires.  I've given up on the whole genre and will not likely return in the near future.  I'll consider subscribing to a MMO, if and only if it doesn't include any form of raiding period.  Until they create a MMO that caters to the casual play style from beginning to end, they won't get another dime from me.

I feel ya brother. but I am here to deliver the gospel. WAR so promises not to have any raiding accoridng to the article here on this site

edit- and yeah I feel ya on CoX too. Was loving it til I hit 50 then discovered was huge difference between played using Hami-Os and those without. the icing on the cake is Issue 9 will be adding auction houses andf making the game more loot driven

Originally posted by Anofalye

/duel Dan Fortier.

 

The overwhelming majority NEVER raid in the endgame.  Raiding exist BECAUSE devs want to keep some players hooked and they appeal to the worst players, social gankers.  Bearing FoH or LoS or AL?  You're kidding me?  This is a TINY MINORITY, and a social gankers minority on top of that!  Yes, I am a tiny little boy who cry at about been stealed my grouping-toys...however everything rational in me tell me that I am right and that it is unfair!

 

Casuals they love invites, offers, and options.  These guilds are doing the OPPOSITE of what the casuals want.  You have to follow rules A, B and C which are all turning you into a cold jerk!  They are removing options, they insist that someone must have A, B or C to even group them/join them.  These guilds hate to do PUGs, casuals love to do PUGs...and I am honestly happy to provide them a PUG if I can.  These guilds, they would DESTROY loot rather than sell it to casuals, they have done it on many occasions and I was a witness and I find these guys deserving of nothing but raw hatred.

 

Raiding in it actual form is appealing mostly to the social gankers...  Good raiding could be built, but it would first have to not be enforced on anyone.  Best groupers deserve to be groupers!  Not social gankers!  Long ago, PvP-makers learn to not listen to gankers who request open FFA with full looting; they seem to be unable to make the same for PvE.  Both results in the same situation, the powerfull abuse the needy.  A powerfull player should lead by example no matter how silly this sound, not be rude with new players...and uber guilds are rude to everyone who doesn't raid with THEM; and they are usually rudes among themselves as well!  These guilds even have rules that you have to DITCH your group regardless of anything else, come on, how more of a jerk can these be?

hehe you never stop whineing about this do yah lol. Seems like you had alot of bad experiences. Personally with out raid content or something more than standard group. You run out of content really fast. Grouping is fine and all, and yes i hate pug. normally cause you never know what moron you'll get stuck with. If there was a way to check the players iq before inviting them, then pug would be great. I much rather stick to people I know that can play, or invite people to join me when i know i wont be needing them.

There has yet to be a game that is forced raiding, true you will not have the best gear in the game by solo/ grouping, but you will still be good enough for that type of content. that and following set rules for raiding dont turn you into a jerk they are there for a reason. Plus requiring a certain class to have skills need to be effective are also there for a reason.  That and 99% of the time raiding guilds have a schedule and they know when a raid will be called if the player joins a group before a raid they know how long they have to play in your group.

Also alot of raids are going away from the 8 hours to complete, most of the ones now days unless your learning it for the first time can be done pretty fast. Eq1 our average per target is 30 to 45 mins, raid zones a little over an hour, wow normally not more than 2 hours per zone.

that and if you think its a tiny minority that want to raid i think you off many would love to raid only a few can acctually make it. I constantly see people that just are clueless how to gear up and build a character useful for raiding. Also no reason to jump to an uber guild it doesnt take long to take a family guild and start them on the path of raiding and going thru targets as long as you get a decent raid leader.

But when it comes to you Anofalye groupers will be sub par players in the end thats just the way mmo's go. If you want to just be a grouper then deal with the fact youwill not be the best on the server. Really if your a grouper that shouldn't matter go enjoy the mindless grind the groupers do. I rather be raiding then grinding forever in a group. Which only about 1% of groups even really talk its more canned phrase to let everyone know when a heal is coming or a mob is incoming. Or at the end of the mission asking hey want to go again. probally why i avoid grouping as much as possible

Actually, it is forced raiding.  When the end game is only about raiding and its the only avenue of improving your chracter, then you either have to do it or re-roll or quit.  Being forced to do it sucks the big one, having to re-roll just delays the inevitable and it forces you to rehash old content.  I just happen to be one of the ones who quits rather than financially support a MMO that could give a rat's ass about my play style.  I keep discussing the issue on various boards in the hopes that a developer might have a brain fart and actually program entertaining content that isn't based on 4 - 8 hour stints of raiding ad nauseum.

By the way, all of the raiding games out there DO NOT offer raiding on a 30 minute to 1 hour schedule.  The shortest I've seen is around 2 hours for a Hamidon raid in City of Heroes.  The rest of the MMO's, even with recent expansions all clock in around 4 to 6 hours or even longer.  Keep in mind, its not just the ridiculous time requirements that make some of us upset.  Its their insane repetitiveness that is also a fun killer.  The fact that 25 to 40 or even more go into an instance and when they leave, only 5 to 10 people get any meaningful loot per visit.  What the hell is up with that?  Every one who goes in should get at least one piece of loot and even that is pathetic payment for your time investment.

Game longevity is not my concern.  I am a consumer and its my expectation to be entertained.  It is not my expectation nor my desire to be some guinea pig in some freakish social experiment.  These developers need to start earning their salaries by putting out entertaining content.  Its their job after all.  I don't give a damn if raids are the easiest and the most lazy way to stretch out an obvious lack of imagination.  I'm not interested in making their jobs easier, but I am interested in them producing a product that I can actually enjoy.

They need to get off their collective asses and stop taking our patronage for granted.  If they don't start making improvements in the genre, its going to die out in its infancy and return to its niche market beginnings.

Originally posted by skeezixs

There has yet to be a game that is forced raiding, true you will not have the best gear in the game by solo/ grouping, but you will still be good enough for that type of content. that and following set rules for raiding dont turn you into a jerk they are there for a reason. Plus requiring a certain class to have skills need to be effective are also there for a reason.  That and 99% of the time raiding guilds have a schedule and they know when a raid will be called if the player joins a group before a raid they know how long they have to play in your group.

But when it comes to you Anofalye groupers will be sub par players in the end thats just the way mmo's go. If you want to just be a grouper then deal with the fact youwill not be the best on the server. Really if your a grouper that shouldn't matter go enjoy the mindless grind the groupers do. I rather be raiding then grinding forever in a group. Which only about 1% of groups even really talk its more canned phrase to let everyone know when a heal is coming or a mob is incoming. Or at the end of the mission asking hey want to go again. probally why i avoid grouping as much as possible

No thanks.

I don't have to play and pay for a sucky game that enforced raiding.  You want to accept to be subpar and lame-o-trash, YOUR choice.  I don't.  I also have the freedom to debate openly and to help fellow groupers understand that they don't have to cope with the like of you, you are not worthy of their presence at any rate.

You are so elitist in your arguments, so looking from high on others, just reading you make me angry!  Raiding is enforced the day it grant 1 hp more than grouping, and this is not acceptable.  If you accept it, then good for you, but then you will be out of good groupers and good PUGers in your MMOs.  You will be left alone with your tiny little circle of friends because you are AFRAID of taking risks.  Maybe it is YOU that should consider playing single player RPGs as you don't like to mix with the community afterall!  See, taking a guy that is clueless and making him succeed, that is something you will never know, because you are the guy who is clueless and taken in charge by your guild.

Best groupers have to be groupers.  Period.  Otherwise, you deserve no groupers in your game.  As to "running out of content"; this is not my problem and I have shown far more tenacity in face of lack of content than any raiding guild did.  So your point is null.

I am happy about 1 thing however, with little luck I will NEVER meet you again in a MMO, nor your kind.  And I will be all the better.  I don,t mind grouping clueless noob003 that will train me 935785 times, there is HOPE to improve him.  You, raiders-enforcers...are hopeless, there is nothing to do with you...in fact...maybe there could be some PvP options! 

Originally posted by Tsiya

Rules? Don't be a jerk, and if you want to raid be at the instance at start time. What other rules do you need? If you're running with a bunch of autocratic jerks, then maybe there's other rules. But if you are, then raiding isn't fun, so don't do it. If it's not fun you're not doing it right.

I resent the social ganker comment. You do not know me, and you do not know my friends who raid with me. You don't like raiding, don't. But nobody can ever force you to raid. I'm not clear on why you feel forced I guess.

The rules I was speaking off are about the obligation that guild members abandon their groups, whatever they do, in order to show at raiding.  If you don't know this, then you don't know much about uber guilds in general.  Many of them do that.

Giving better rewards is enforcing, and denying it make you a social ganker!  Otherwise, productivity wouldn't be enforced on every company out there, they have the choice to be unproductive, to lose money and eventually fire 90% of their staff, it is a choice they have...yeah right!

raiding, as it stands now is way over the top. What is the point ?. spend hours upon hours just for a chance at an uber piece of gear, and for what?  So you can advance to the next grindfest. I've lv'd my char.  now whats left for me? pvp has no meaning, My faction doesn't hold or keep anything, doesnt deny the other team anything. pvp has turned into a raiding type grindfest for uber gear.  The next  raid is all about adding more uber gear to my collection. Rather like the cartoon where the mule is chasing the carrot on a string tied to a stick in front of it.  Put the  uber item in the instance,  nope didn't drop, (more cart pulling) run it again, (pull that cart, or in this case pay that $$$) GOT IT! ohhh that carrot was good, where's the next one.  So i guess this makes raiding as it wow stands as who can get the most carrots while pulling the cart the longest.  Simply a hook to keep you playing, a time sink.

Originally posted by mindmeld
Well i have to say this was not much of a debate rather a expressing of 2 opionions.

Can there be much of a debate between Jews and Nazis?

Granted it is nothing as bad as this, and we are only in a HOBBY, so we all have blessed lives to start with.  But my example between Nazis (raiders) and Jews been victimized stand.  Debate is impossible when 1 side is cornered.

Best groupers have to be groupers.  This can't be debated.  Debating this is like debating slavery with slavers.

Originally posted by Vrazule
Game longevity is not my concern.  I am a consumer and its my expectation to be entertained.  It is not my expectation nor my desire to be some guinea pig in some freakish social experiment.  These developers need to start earning their salaries by putting out entertaining content.  Its their job after all.  I don't give a damn if raids are the easiest and the most lazy way to stretch out an obvious lack of imagination.  I'm not interested in making their jobs easier, but I am interested in them producing a product that I can actually enjoy.