I dont fit anywhere in your poll , am a older gamer thats retired and have all the time in the world, so i guess i can fit in any style of game they make

I'm just as sick of seeing 6 people competing for mob kills and ignoring chat and any interaction with the world around them or offers to engage in conversation or group. I never feel the need to try and change solo orientated games into group ones, but it's starting to wear a little thin now that no-one really seems to have the balls to do anything that isn't pandering to WoW-mode.

Finally there's a new game being released where grouping isn't actively discouraged, penalised and hampered, finally a new game that actually allows those who play for the MULTIPLAYER in MMO to feel at home. Mainly solo games always have worse communities than cooperation friendly games in every MMO I've played over the last decade. I don't want to play in a bad community, I want a group game and I'm very relieved to finally get one that caters to this ignored section of the marketplace.

I'm obviously in a poor mood today and have no patience for another one of the "why can't VG penalise grouping more? threads" like every other solo or quasi MSORPG game on the market, just quit it. Either get better at making groups, deal with the massive amount of solo content in vanguard without whinging that those better at playing nice with the other kids will perhaps do a little better because the effort of sorting out a group is actually rewarded not penalised, or play one of the 9000 games catering to solo and leave the handful of games actually intended for social interaction alone.

My family & business might put constraints on my ability to group also, but I don't want another solo chore grinder with a community that makes me turn off chat channels, if I have to pay the price of actively making some groups of my own, finding and maintaining a good circle of friends and finding the right guild to support my particular playtimes & commitments, good, it's benefits are thoroughly worth it.

Group when you have a chunk of time, diplomacy, craft, harvest, solo, explore, and any of the many other activities (player merchanting, housing etc) when you don't have so much time at a stretch.

Finally we have a new MMO that DOES cater to adults, and you want them to turn it back into a clone of the rest of the market?

Lol, I was specifically refering to the areas where numerous people are competing for a finite number of spawns for kill X quests, when grouping simply lets everyone accomplish the quests much easier by cooperating rather than competing for spawn, it's logical and sensible and most people accept when it's pointed out to them, some don't read chat or are set on solo-ing only ever. I find that a little bizarre when it's to everyone's detriment including theirs. Solo-ing is much more prevalent in the MMO community today than the community of the past, because alot of recent MMO's have reinforced that grouping is a detriment and some people expect the same in VG.

I like that VG isn't that way, and get a little tired of people suggesting it should be changed to be the way all the other recent & upcoming MMO's are geared, if that makes me somehow insecure & needy in your eyes hey whatever floats your boat. I have little trouble finding or starting groups in general thanks & never have no matter what class or MMO I've been playing.

Originally posted by Sharkypal

Originally posted by Gonodil

Now I was a big fan of everquest (played from 1999) and I would go back if SoE ever put in a good classic server, so don't think i hate "challenging games".

 

The problem I see with vanguard is that it ignores the needs of the people that actualy started playing this genere in their young age (I myself was 13 when I started playing EQ) but have since grown up and due to real life restrictions no longer have the time to get much fun out of a game that requires grouping and long distance travel.

A lot of us LOVE grouping, but we realy arent able to play games where we have to spend one hour looking for a group, one hour running to the camp, and then 30 mins to recover our corpse should we actualy die. (nor spend large sums of coin summoning our corpse...because if you cannot play a lot, how are you going to have tons of extra coin?)

Also, we dont have the free hours neccessary to look around and find the handful of soloable camps. (and one single pull mob in between 20 different group pull sets of NPCs isnt exactly easly accessable)

And please, don't give the "go play single player games if you want to solo" crap excuse. Few people WANT to solo, it's just impossible to get much grouping done in a 2 hour period. Now on the weekends, we might have a decent chunk of time in which grouping is practical, but I'd also like to be able to achive something measurable during a 2 hour play session on a work day....not crafting....not diplomacy. I want to kill something squishy, and be able to get a decent amount of experience from doing so (not asking for lvl 50, dragon loot, and glowy_uber_weapon01 in short order)

 

MMOs need to start catering to working adults as well as kids if they want to have a real chance of success.

There are plenty of MMOs out there that are tailored to your needs. Why does every single one have to be geared towards the casual gamer? I'm not a casual gamer, I don't live in my parents basement, I am independantly wealthy and have chosen to spend most of my time gaming. SWG was ruined by your particular point of view. You are entitled to it, but personally I find it very selfish. There are plenty of MMOs for casual gamers with more on the way. Let us have our ONE please.

 

This is to you Sharkypal. and everyone else who thinks like him.

 

Why should every MMORPG be tailored to you no life gamers who spend form the time you wake until you sleep infornt of the computer on a game?? why should every one be made for people like you?

Not all of us have the time and not all of us are willing to live our lives for the game. Some of us have RL things we have to do, Some of us have familys, kids, husbands and wives we have to take care of. 

We're not all little school kiddies who have nothing to do but game all day and night.

So why should all of the games be made for people like you?

When you get all growen up you'll be thinking the same too, when your not living in mommys or daddys basement. when you have other things in life to do then sit infront of the computer all day.

 

@Parmenion ... I can't even express how much I am with you there. Always feels good to see others thinking along the same track.

Originally posted by parmenion
I find that a little bizarre when it's to everyone's detriment including theirs. Solo-ing is much more prevalent in the MMO community today than the community of the past, because alot of recent MMO's have reinforced that grouping is a detriment and some people expect the same in VG. 

I can only speak for myself. The reason that I'm mostly soloing these days has to do with the quality of pickup groups (or the lack thereof). More often than not, I just feel like pounding my head into the nearest wall when grouping. It has nothing to do with game mechanics and everything to do with the people in game. Hopefully, VG will attract more of the great people, so that I can once again put up the LFG flag without having to gulp down a bottle of Xanax

so true... I think so much of the soloing has to do with the fact that pick up groups are just bad, especially in games like WoW. The mental maturity and knowledge of how to play is not the same in the average WoW players than they were in other games. Maybe this has to do with age, because I see more and more 13-18 aged players than ever before, and while some may be mature and understand, the majority are immature and completely frustrating to play with. Nothing against the few mature younger gamers but I would love to be able to play on a server that has an age requirement, where I dont have to deal with the immaturity and OMGROFLZ and just general little 16/17 yr old pricks who think they are the coolest thing since sliced bread. I'm just tired of it, and I really hope VG will draw in the more mature players.

Mandy, I have all those responsibilities including a business I've owned & managed throughout the decade I've been playing MMO's, yet I couldn't disagree more that every game should cater solely to instant gratification, no consequences to poorer play and penalise group play, there are so very many that do, it's nice to finally see one that doesn't.

The main thing I take away from the, "how dare those with more free time achieve more" opinions is that playing a restricted amount of time in the game compared to some and not having the same phat lewtz makes you jealous, if however you evaluate whether your time in game was rewarding for you personally, utterly irrespective of coveting what the hardcore elite have, then everytime I will take what I consider a good community that fosters reasons to work together, over what I consider a bad community that focuses more on goal aquisition and using or ignoring people to that end.

VG seems very likely to build the sort of community I can enjoy for years to come, there are a huge amount of recent and upcoming games catering to a different playstyle. Not everyone has to listen to HipHop, not everyone has to listen to Rock, both styles of music have their market and their niches and their audiences, lets leave them that way.

Originally posted by parmenion
Mandy, I have all those responsibilities including a business I've owned & managed throughout the decade I've been playing MMO's, yet I couldn't disagree more that every game should cater solely to instant gratification, no consequences to poorer play and penalise group play, there are so very many that do, it's nice to finally see one that doesn't.

The main thing I take away from the, "how dare those with more free time achieve more" opinions is that playing a restricted amount of time in the game compared to some and not having the same phat lewtz makes you jealous, if however you evaluate whether your time in game was rewarding for you personally, utterly irrespective of coveting what the hardcore elite have, then everytime I will take what I consider a good community that fosters reasons to work together, over what I consider a bad community that focuses more on goal aquisition and using or ignoring people to that end.

VG seems very likely to build the sort of community I can enjoy for years to come, there are a huge amount of recent and upcoming games catering to a different playstyle. Not everyone has to listen to HipHop, not everyone has to listen to Rock, both styles of music have their market and their niches and their audiences, lets leave them that way.

So who asked for instant gratification, easy max level, and uber loot in this thread? NO ONE

 

AGAIN, why the hell do you hardcore gamers keep imagining that every casual player wants to be handed everything?

We want to be able to accomplish SOMETHING in an hour or two of game time.....so that if i can only play 2 hours a day, I can maybe get a level once a week.

 

But you rabbid little (i cant even think up an appropriate word for what you are) keep imagining that solo players want the exact same things as groups/raids in the same amount of time or less

I can achieve having fun, whether I have an hour to play or 3, that's always achieving something. If I have longer to play I'll always get a group going, because I just find cooperative group play makes the Multiplayer in MMO and solo play doesn't so much personally, most current and upcoming games penalise grouping by making it far less productive overall, VG doesn't and I like that feature.

Crafting havesting diplomacy etc in VG are all much more suited to solo than group-play, you can do something in a minute or two if you choose. Overall I like that adventuring rewards careful tactical play and has downsides for poor play, I think it's those mechanics that encourage people to coordinate and play together better, I think it's those mechanics that improve the qualities of PUGs and the forming of friendships and ultimately has a very positive influence on forming the sorts of communities I enjoy, I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

p.s. being called a Rabid Little Something made me smile :D

What games penalize grouping? You get better experience and better loot if you group....are you saying that games other than vanguard make loot crappy and give you less exp than a soloer if you just group with someone else?

Originally posted by Gonodil
What games penalize grouping? You get better experience and better loot if you group....are you saying that games other than vanguard make loot crappy and give you less exp than a soloer if you just group with someone else?

Im not sure what changes have occured since I last played EQ2, but on release EQ2 heavily penalised grouping in my opinion. The exp share was lousy and if some peanut diesd you shared thier exp loss... it was extremely frustrating to say the least.

Many people including me howled about the shared death penalty.... the devs said "suck it down we aint changing" and sure enough as soon as the population starts to dwindle.... BAM.... no more shared exp loss in groups.....

A cynical person would say something like... "slow learners" in relation to some devs.....

But fortunately Im not that cynical...

Well a number of upcoming games I cannot discuss because of NDA so I'll speak in general terms.

Games that are very focused on linear quest grinds make grouping far more tedius, because not only do you have to find people your level but you have to find people on the same quest steps, alot of games fall into this category. Not only is it more difficult to find groups, it's far harder to maintain ongoing groups & friendships because unless you have precisely the same play schedules you can easily get into a endless game of catchup, repeating previous steps to try and get everyone to the same point you can now progress from as a group.

Groups always have a time cost associated with putting them together and keeping them together, so groups do need to be  more productive to make up for whilst actually killing stuff - often the way xp is split amongst the group members is such that solo-ing is better and gives more loot.

Having to travel for quests is the bane of grouping, because the groups advantage - being able to kill mobs a bit more safely - is utterly useless when most of your time is actually spent running to turn stuff in or get to the new spot.

The safety advantage of grouping is often negated by the ease of more recent individual mobs and fights - if you are extremely unlikely to die whilst solo-ing, and there are very limited penalties even if you do, it doesn't encourage you to group up does it.

Alot of quests are harvest X type quests, these goals don't work with a group because only 1 person can harvest per kill usually so you have the overhead of a group (formation time downtime etc) with no benefit. There are many scripted quests that don't always update all group members, necessitating multiple repetitions.

The current trend in chore grinders (questing) which has alot of your time spent running around completing goals far more efficiently done solo, penalise grouping - look at WoW's gameplay, how much time is spent grouping as opposed to solo-ing whilst levelling to 60 for the majority of people? How many people actually form a regular roster of groupmates they adventure with beyond purely their guildmates? Why do PUGs have a much worse reputation in the games that are very forgiving of extremely poor group tactics, than in the games that have real downsides to poor group tactics?

VG's treatement of those factors make me think Sigil has made the kind of game I will enjoy, that is likely to form the kind of communities I will enjoy for years to come, if they were removed to make solo play the preferred playstyle for every sphere, not just all the others bar adventuring, I would be very disappointed - there are no other games really making that connection between encouraging cooperative play encourages strong community bonds to develope, in my view.

//edit dyslexic spelling ;)

Sounds like most of the stuff makes the game more challanging (the same way people claim exp grinding and forced grouping make VG a challenge)....so I guess you want everything just handed to you if you think those features aren't good.

Well if you're not going to meet me on the substance of an argument, or actually rebutt my points, lets just agree our views are different. VG how it is, very much appeals to me. No-one forces you to group there, you can solo in all spheres or you can solo in all bar one, both will achieve "something".

Having a good roster of groupmates will make adventuring more fun for me and I'm glad the system will not penalise grouping, in my view it's the only new or upcoming game that does so.

Parmenion,

People support these games like football teams. Dont get upset if others wont agree. Heaps of us are like minded and I'll see you in game maybe.

OP,

In general, giving an example of an existing and working system is a good start when telling someone how to do something.

Originally posted by Sharkypal

Originally posted by Jackdog
I only have time for a good group once or twice a week myself so a strictly group oriented game is not what I am looking for either. However I really think Vanguard need to focus on what it was originally intended to be . A group oriented, hard core game No way it will ever be a mainstream game now and I really think Sigil need s to refocus back to their original design and not be a jack of all trades game. There are too many other games coming out this year which will be focused toward the casual gamer and were designed for that from the beginning.  Performance issues can be over come, people upgrade their machines and what is a heavy engine today will play smoothly on newer hardware. Content can be added, animations smoothed etc. However poor design is a game killer. No one will dethrone WoW for a long time, I think newer MMORPGs need to identify their target audience and not try an beat WoW at their own game. There is a good market for group oriented games, Vanguard could fill it if they refocus.

While I don't think WoW is a design "triumph" in any sene of the word (apart from subs obviously), I do agree that Vanguard should not attempt to become something it was never meant to be. I'm not convinced Sigil are doing that yet, but more than one MMO has made the mistake of attempting it. SWG being the most noteable example.

I honestly think that is why they are releasing the game in sub par shape now. They lost their focus some where in the middle of beta and dicided to try become a joat ( jack of all trades) MMORPG instead of maintaining their original design plan. Now instead of being the best hard core game on the market time was wasted trying to "soften" the game up. Time which could have been spent developing and polishing content.

Originally posted by Razorback

Originally posted by Gonodil
What games penalize grouping? You get better experience and better loot if you group....are you saying that games other than vanguard make loot crappy and give you less exp than a soloer if you just group with someone else?

Im not sure what changes have occured since I last played EQ2, but on release EQ2 heavily penalised grouping in my opinion. The exp share was lousy and if some peanut diesd you shared thier exp loss... it was extremely frustrating to say the least.

Many people including me howled about the shared death penalty.... the devs said "suck it down we aint changing" and sure enough as soon as the population starts to dwindle.... BAM.... no more shared exp loss in groups.....

A cynical person would say something like... "slow learners" in relation to some devs.....

But fortunately Im not that cynical...

you did not play EQII long after it;s release, they changed it one month and some change after release. I wonder if Vanguard will include more solo content after release or will they be slow learners too?