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VPellen 1/22/07 4:14:06 AM
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MMORPG.COM Staff
Joined: 11/21/06
Fun MMORPG.com fact #34: We have a chatroom! |
So I was sitting on my ass as I do, and my thoughts came to something.
First, let's pretend we have a game which is compelling and fun and interesting without having major focus on avatar advancement. Meaning, the game doesn't focus on a linear advancement model (read: levelling) as its main means of entertaining the player. The players are all having fun and being entertained, and it's not by grinding orcs or collecting foozles. There is player advancement, but its main purpose is power segregation, not content. Let's also assume that this is a model where player-to-player conflict is a significant part of the world. How strong do you make the "newbie"? The person just into the game? On one hand, you could make them as strong as the people who've already been playing the game for a decent amount of time. In this, it means that new players are significant to the world. There are however several downsides to this. The first is that players become less attached to their avatars if they don't have to spend as much time getting them to a decent level. This is a bad thing because people who are less attached to their avatars tend to feel more detached from the world, and thus tend to objectify the world (and the people in it) more easily. This means; Players are more likely to turn griefer on you. The second problem is that not only do you have more griefers, but they become more of a pain, because if they are eliminated (through either some form of permadeath or perhaps banning), they have a much easier time getting back into the game on a fighting level. Also, people can produce potent armies with minimal effort if new characters are given too much power. On the other hand, if you make new players too weak, they may be discouraged and feel less significant. Your new players won't be able to play as significant a part in the metagame of the world as they would if they had more power. This tends to lead to players being divided into separate groups, and thus they socialize less. Now I'm sure there's some magic balance, but what do you think? Is it better to give newbies more power, or less power? Assuming character advancement isn't the main "drive" of the game world, are there any particular pros and cons that you notice? Any side you'd prefer to stick to? Most games today have a huge separation of power between the new player and the veteran; Games that don't barely ever qualify as MMOs. Of course, most games these days are heavily based on advancement. Thoughts, observations, suggestions? |
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| Any views or opinions expressed in the above post are entirely my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of MMORPG.com, its associates or affiliates. |
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coughka 1/22/07 9:11:36 AM
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Novice Member
Joined: 12/28/06 |
I totally agree with you on making new chars more powerful. I love the idea of PvP but it is too chaotic in most games. You should only have 1 char per server and karma or faction from grief players will stick to the account. So even if they make a new char their karma or faction stays. So this will stop people from making a new char to grief with every week. If you want a grief player then you might have to find a rogue village or guild.
Holy chars (clerics, paladins, shadowknights, etc.) have strict laws set forth by their deities. If you screw up as a paladin you are just a weaker fighter with out your spiritual gifts. Thats if you have classes.
You definitely need some options on leveling for the same reason you gave. Players want to get attached to their characters. Make the improvements take time to get but make them minimal. You dont need much in hp gain, just more variety of abilities and skills. Maybe if you take "toughness" for a few levels you might max out at 50% more hp than a newbie.
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Zyzx-Man 1/22/07 11:31:46 AM
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Novice Member
Joined: 1/12/07
Moo ««BEWARE»» |
While lvl your char should never be the main focus of entertainment (it should be something that just happens as you quest) i like the lvl 1 newbie with nothing starting point, i have the most fun getting the stuff i need to survive. really getting powerful is the Whole point to MMO's. |
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| Moo |
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ironore 1/22/07 12:03:53 PM
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Advanced Member
Joined: 6/24/05
Forging the Future |
As the OP mentioned, the 'point' of the design proposed is NOT to focus on leveling at all.
To add my 2 cents, I would lean more to the side of having new players on fairly even ground with others as far as raw power goes. I do advocate the advancement in certain skills, but the gap between things like hit points (how many times you have to hit someone to kill them) should not really ever change between people. While it is very possible that this will cause griefers to have less inhibition, I do not think it will become as much of a problem as it at first might seem. This is because I envision a dynamic PvP world with the focus being removed from leveling as being much more focused on the society and organizations of players. I agree with the idea that there should only be one character per account and that as far as items go, a player should start with virtually nothing of value(so as not to imbalance the economy at character creation). If this is the case then players will not be able to function well in such a world where so much depends on interaction and cooperation. If the design allows for very open PvP and gives player the tools to police the areas they control, then I would welcome any attempts by players to be griefers completely outside of any organized structure. I think they would find themselves unable to function for long without being able to obtain supplies, etc, and would more likely become part of an opposing organization to support their 'griefing' activities. Now what we have is actual conflict and competition and it really shouldn't be labeled as griefing at all at this point. Come to think of it, most griefing that I have heard of involves HIGH level characters picking on those that can do very little about it. If players are roughly equal I see no reason why it should make much difference if new characters were about as powerful as vetrans, as either one could choose griefing behaviors and not really be at that much of an advantage over the other. As far as advancement of an avatar providing attachment to a world, I think the players of games focused on advancement are more attached to avoiding the tedium of repeating the boredom it took to get the character to that 'level' than anything else. I think attachment to the world would actually be greater in a world where you were focused on interacting with the world and not just augmenting your 'action figure.' |
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| IronOre - Forging the Future |
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coughka 1/23/07 12:27:24 AM
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Novice Member
Joined: 12/28/06 |
Ironore, you really need to develop a game. I've seen your posts a lot, and your ideas are exactly what i want to see in a game!
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Xyang 1/23/07 12:41:59 AM
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Novice Member
Joined: 2/14/06
Don''t cry that you''re being walked on if you act like a carpet. |
To answer the original poster about what place should newbie have when they join a MMO that has run for several years. First of all: It is not required for a newbie to be just as powerful then veterans in order for them to bring their contribution. You just have to make it so newbie player have "some kind of powers or abilities" to trade to veteran, in exchange of what Veterans have worked for years to obtain. I'm a developer myself and won't tell you exactly what i have in mind, because i don't want those ground breaking ideas to be stole, but just by keeping what i just told you in mind, you will find your own solution to that problem. The solution is to make "everybody" have something others don't have. So casual bring something to hardcore, griefers bring something to carebear and vice versa. If you do that, you will create a game with a 10 years longevity at least (providing it's any good) and also prolly the first where you can have carebears, hardcore, casual and griefers all competing with fair chances of success without eliminating one other play style. Any serious person in this forum about making a new MMO should contact me in private. I have work myself on mine since 1997 and it's only a matter of budget that prevents me to kick everything that has been done so far in the nuts. Oh and i don't care how many times you heard that: I can back it off. Regards. |
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| What deserves to be done, deserves to be "well" done... |
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Nejikuro 1/23/07 1:26:05 AM
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Apprentice Member
Joined: 1/02/07
Expose The Dark Side |
Regardless of what you do, there will always be an imbalance of power between veteran players and newbies. If you allow even the slightest increase in character strength through normal play, then those characters will always be able to defeat the newbie. It is the average mmo-junky behavior to meticulously find every possible way to use every possible aspect of the game and/or their character to their advantage.
By making all characters perpetually equal in strength, the veteran player will probably win most of the time simply out of experience and/or twitch. However, things will probably even out to a 50/50 after the newbie player begins to gain experience with the game. But as has been said before: Investing time and effort into a game only to be able to get your ass handed to you by someone who's played the game for 20 seconds will definately never be fun or encouraging (Well I guess it's possible some people out there might find some kind of entertainment in that.. but definately not myself.) My opinion is similar to that of ironore. Make attachment more focused on the world itself. Put your efforts into building a faction, city, or empire, not power levelling your char with broken game mechanics. I don't have any idea how to balance the newbie/veteran equation, but I also don't know if any one solution exists. I guess the only thing to do is try to strike a balance as best you can. |
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theanimedude 1/23/07 4:20:15 AM
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Advanced Member
Joined: 6/06/04
WE LOVE YOU EN1GMA! |
I agree that the Vet > Noob equation does not work out. In fact, it is shown to us by every old generation MMO in existence right now. Go to DAOC and try to start playing: I guarantee you that you will find the long and lonely road lots of fun.... mmhmm. The current system is not only broken, but it's being ignored. The system that I think would be the way to go would be more of a realism system, rather than an "Uber Item" system, like today's MMOs. Realism, as in, you are a new inhabitant in this world. You have no map (maps are the bane of all fun in MMOs), no items other than some basic clothing (and clothing would be nothing more than a status symbol anyways), nothing. The game should definitely focus more on a communal aspect, rather than a grind aspect. The purpose: create a striving civilization, and be more powerful than the next. Who needs uber armor when you have a civilization capable of out teching the one next door? You want to take over my land? My newly developed sand powered force field says different (kidding, but you get the point). I'm simply saying that they're right, there should be no difference between the vet and the noob, other than one has a community to stand behind, and the other has to find his way in the world. Personally, I would love to have a form of realistic world, where the only way to figure out where you were would be by landmarks, a crudely drawn map by a fellow friend and cartographer (and it would have to be drawn by the player through some system, not precisely generated by the system), and your environment to help you figure out where you are, and where you want to be. |
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Amorphism 1/23/07 7:19:29 AM
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