I don't want to get pulled in to this fiasco, but I will say that if you (whoever it was that original stated such) thinks that the majority of mmo players are 13-21 needs to substantiate this claim. Though I can't substantiate it for you, I would guess it to be closer to 19-34 single males as the majority, with females being the same but not single.

I don't have the patience to read this whole thread in detail, but I also agree that if you haven't reached 60 and haven't been to AT LEAST ZG, you also have no clue what end-game is in WoW. It is very different, which is why I always die when I go back to soloing.

And for the comment about warriors sucking at both pvp and pve, try being a rogue sometime. At least you can take hits, maybe an elite somewhere close to your level, and may actually live if you pull more than one.

What else can I comment on.... Oh, here you go. End-game pvp as was hinted at in one post, where competition is lacking to due the constant need to upgrade gear to stay on par is actually a catch-22. the MMO side of the game drives people to play with others in some setting, the Game part usually entails competition (as almost every non-single player game, be it video game, board game, card game, etcs), but then there's the Role Playing part of an MMORPG. The RP part is what involves the storyline, the leveling, and the progression that you all find from lvls 1-60. Once you reach 60 and begin PvPing on what is believed to be a fair playing field, the MMOG and the RPG begin to conflict. To truly make PvP a fair competition you have to remove the RPG from the end-game. If you remove the RPG from the end-game, people lose sight of the reason behind grinding to 60 and playing this type of game in the first place. In other words, a catch-22.

That's what I think. It's an opinion, and thus subjective. Agree, disagree, or agree to disagree. and if you don't know what substantiate, catch-22, or even end-game means try wikipedia for those big words too.

Originally posted by shmig
I don't want to get pulled in to this fiasco, but I will say that if you (whoever it was that original stated such) thinks that the majority of mmo players are 13-21 needs to substantiate this claim. Though I can't substantiate it for you, I would guess it to be closer to 19-34 single males as the majority, with females being the same but not single.

I don't have the patience to read this whole thread in detail, but I also agree that if you haven't reached 60 and haven't been to AT LEAST ZG, you also have no clue what end-game is in WoW. It is very different, which is why I always die when I go back to soloing.

And for the comment about warriors sucking at both pvp and pve, try being a rogue sometime. At least you can take hits, maybe an elite somewhere close to your level, and may actually live if you pull more than one.

What else can I comment on.... Oh, here you go. End-game pvp as was hinted at in one post, where competition is lacking to due the constant need to upgrade gear to stay on par is actually a catch-22. the MMO side of the game drives people to play with others in some setting, the Game part usually entails competition (as almost every non-single player game, be it video game, board game, card game, etcs), but then there's the Role Playing part of an MMORPG. The RP part is what involves the storyline, the leveling, and the progression that you all find from lvls 1-60. Once you reach 60 and begin PvPing on what is believed to be a fair playing field, the MMOG and the RPG begin to conflict. To truly make PvP a fair competition you have to remove the RPG from the end-game. If you remove the RPG from the end-game, people lose sight of the reason behind grinding to 60 and playing this type of game in the first place. In other words, a catch-22.

That's what I think. It's an opinion, and thus subjective. Agree, disagree, or agree to disagree. and if you don't know what substantiate, catch-22, or even end-game means try wikipedia for those big words too.

i would actually say that most kids playing are probably 14-40.  and i'm completely serious i'm 16, and i know about a 100 kids personally who play, WoW appeals to alot of younger gamers.  I on the other hand played, but was dissapointed, i like pve every now and then, but i like to mix it up with crafting and a pvp system where you can capture things in the real world...errr... well not instanced i mean...

I know someone mentioned it earlier, and it really struck me as true, but its true that I started my MMORPG experience with SWG(pre-suck), and the content in that game spoiled me.  Luckily i quit before CU was implemented, but my opinoin was definitly cemented to community based games, where there are player cities, player events, player healers. 

SWG did alot of things right, i mean their system for medics was ingenious.  WoW is also an ingenius game, there are few bugs, and although much of the gameplay is restrictive, it finally creates a foundation of which MMO's can grow on, i just hope that some more community based games or skill based combat systems will become available as the market for mmo's grows.

edit:lol hope this clearifies with anyone whose debated with me why i base all my debates on SWG, suprisingly SWG is one of the strongest examples to argue with.

O, and the reason why, this is my opinoin at least, that there are so many of these hate forums, is because people like to argue.  The only reason why i post is to get some responses and get to argue points and stuff, it gives me a warm feeling inside =).  So i think some people do take these things too seriously, for me nothing said on a forum can be personal, because all we are discussing is a game...with 8 million losers playing!!! lol j/k  cause then i would have to count myself as one of those losers, although i'm still mad that WoW banned me on my second day of botting, i mean who ccould blaim me?  i had school work to do and my friends were grinding like crazy...

I would like to poitn out now that I am no longer going to debate wether or not WoW is a good game. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt and watched it burn in the flame-war. I would, however, like to share ideas and opinions on issues that have since come up.

First as a historian I would debate the point that it is 'human nature' to hate the big guy and love the underdog'. It is not by any means a phenomena repeated throughout the entire human race. It is a western, and largely American at that, ideal. Though we see isolated instances of it, especially in the art community, in other parts of the world, the Unites States is one of the few countries to hold the underdog as a point to rally around, and in some cases, worship. In other parts of the world it is perfectly okay to like the big guy, this is part of why socialist and communist countries were capable of coming into being. They only hated the current government, not the idea of government itself.

For the record, I have played WoW. For the record I did not reach 60, I got tired of the grind at about level 30, twice, and quit. I currently play, and am in the process of creating, text-based MUSHes. In these games I designed from scratch my own living quarters, I designed and later sold pets capable of random action and trained responses and am now working on creating a language for easily communicating complex thoughts to a NPC. Games do not require a grind, in fact it is mostly, in my humble opinion, a gross misuse of the ideas presented in tabletop RPGing where you were supposed to be engaging in interesting story based combat in order to get those levels, not out killing ten random rabbits for a handful of xp with only the most paltry of story to explain why your even doing it.

I do understand the evolutionary theory of game creation, I also believe though that only evolving a single style of play is unhealthy for the genre. Grind based gaming for example. It is diffucult to name a major release recently that did not have you out grinding, RFO, WoW, and UO, just to name ones that I've actually played to some extent. However, oddly enough, the best grind game I've ever played was OZ Online, where they used the grinding game mechanic to further the real intention of the game, socializing. And this is all okay, it's good that grinding has had it's day in the sun and seen some impressive evolutions. However grinding is not the only option to evolve, player based economies have seen some evolutions, but for being such a fascinating subject with such a wide range of players wanting it in a game is still in the early stages of evolution. And hacking simulators have the possibility of being very addictive and fun as Uplink has proven, yet hacking is rarely tackled by MMOs and I have yet to see one using it as the primary mode of gameplay. (If you do know of any please point me to them, btw.)

So yes evolution is good, but I would like to see the light of evolution spread to other areas that are currently underdeveloped.

Oh and as touched on earlier, I would like to say, and this is just my opinion on the matter, competition and roleplaying do not have to be antithesis. It is the underlying basis that roleplaying is based on a set of stats that causes the discordanance. If role playing were about playing a role it would compliment, not conflict with, the competition of the game.

skip to the last 2 lines for the main point, or read on

the only reason people bash WoW is because they are jealous. Jealous that the people who play the game are having fun whilst they sit and troll forums looking for someone to mention their game as a good comparison, yet, WoW allways comes up.

Their solution is to compare WoW to every game? and why would they do that if they bash WoW so much? Because they realize it is obviously doing better than most mmo's out there, in terms of sales, and how well the WoW community is doing.

On a PvP thread you see people bashing WoWs PvP system, stating that it isnt really pvp. (especially from guild wars players where PvP is 100% contained and repetitive) Then you have PvE people saying the game is too easy, and in a month they can beat the game and get the best gear.( offcoarse realistically it takes months to get the best gear, and new dungeons are released, meaning new good gear)

Then you have people complaining about that all WoW is is grinding., Most games have grinding, at different levels, but most contain some amount of grinding, why? well what do you play MMOS for? to get power, strength, a better character. power is work over time, work is force x displacement(or distance), so basically you put in energy by using the computer and apply this force to provide distance(or level gain) and this level gain over time gives you your power, so unless you can find a better system of getting power by using work, distance and time, then grinding / questing is the best way.

Last, but not least,  you have people complaining about graphics, honestly world of warcraft has bearable graphics, sure its not F.E.A.R., Oblivion, or even Guild Wars, but atleast the animations look nice and combat isnt really boring, the movement of mobs in world of warcraft is in my opinion is better than that of everquest 2, and so is the way one swings the sword in W.o.W. i mean, in EQ the sword sometimes doesnt even touch the mob. then again im not going to bahs EQ combat, it appeals to some people, just not the millions who are interested in WoW combat.

IMO there are many Great MMos out there, many which I dislike, I like a few such as guild wars and wow, but have quit both of them. There is no need to bash mmos that alot of people play, they play it for a reason you know. Why did George Bush win though many people bashed him? its just because, more people ( who keep quiet ) actually liked him.

so dont be jealous cause of a more successful game, but find the game that is right for you, and instead of comparing to a game you have never played, why not try comparing to one that you actually have played? make sense?

Originally posted by Slangroth

the only reason people bash WoW is because they are jealous. Jealous that the people who play the game are having fun whilst they sit and troll forums looking for someone to mention their game as a good comparison, yet, WoW allways comes up.

Their solution is to compare WoW to every game? and why would they do that if they bash WoW so much? Because they realize it is obviously doing better than most mmo's out there, in terms of sales, and how well the WoW community is doing.

On a PvP thread you see people bashing WoWs PvP system, stating that it isnt really pvp. (especially from guild wars players where PvP is 100% contained and repetitive) Then you have PvE people saying the game is too easy, and in a month they can beat the game and get the best gear.( offcoarse realistically it takes months to get the best gear, and new dungeons are released, meaning new good gear)

Then you have people complaining about that all WoW is is grinding., Most games have grinding, at different levels, but most contain some amount of grinding, why? its the

Last, but not least,  you have people complaining about graphics

 

People bash this game as I said before are very anti-social, can't compete with others and wish the game to be exclusive.

Originally posted by Slangroth

the only reason people bash WoW is because they are jealous

Of course it is, silly me!

Cause we all know everyone has the same exact tastes as you and that wow is perfect in everyway for everybody.

thats a pretty cool statement, feel like you have balls? its pretty much stated in my post, there are different kinds of jealously, and success is something people are jealous of on a constant basis. why is a member of your family jealous of that guy who became a doctor or lawyer? ask them

Originally posted by Slangroth

thats a pretty cool statement, feel like you have balls? its pretty much stated in my post, there are different kinds of jealously, and success is something people are jealous of on a constant basis. why is a member of your family jealous of that guy who became a doctor or lawyer? ask them

And here's another shining example why WOW sucks.

The community...need i say more.

Originally posted by Slangroth

thats a pretty cool statement, feel like you have balls? its pretty much stated in my post, there are different kinds of jealously, and success is something people are jealous of on a constant basis. why is a member of your family jealous of that guy who became a doctor or lawyer? ask them

I am simply a consumer. I am not a dev nor an employee of a company competing with WOW. I have no reason to be jealous of WOW. If i wanted to play it - i would - but i don't. I played it for 4 months, got to level 60, achieved all i wanted...then left. Simple.

Actually, I will even go on to say that WOW is and has been great for the MMORPG genre as it brought a lot of new people into the market and opened a lot of other companies eyes - just look at bioware, who are now jumping in. Competition is always good news for consumers.

With that said, I realise WOW is probably your first and only MMORPG and that you think it's perfect. But listen carefully - not everyone has the same tastes as you. Lets see, just because you love mcdonalds (and so does a majority of the world) doesn't mean that the people who dislike it are jealous, they simply have different taste. Understand?

And yes, i am cool, why, are you jealous? Sounds like you get jealous a lot...infact i bet you are one of those guys that cries when your girlfriend talks to another guy.

You are either young, sheltered or naive. Grow up.

I would just like to duel some people that say WoW PVP takes no skill, I'm not the best, I'm not the worst and I sure as hell don't have the best gear, I'm just curious.

o i can't wait to duel you, let me get my spaming hand out, or maybe we can play a real strat game like AOEIII !!!.  But seriously, WoW PVP isn't completely without strategy, its just that alot of people who are new to MMO's have no idea the capabilities of the PVP system, WoW's system is so similar to PVE thats its kinda annoying, personally i like having to run in the uninstanced world looking for trouble, i don't like to have to instance myself to PVP, but the rumor is that Blizzard is going to change and add to their PVP system because of Warhammer, but its kinda annoying that they couldn't have implemented it earlier.

edit: i'm not saying that your new to MMO's i have no idea, i'm just saying that it annoys me when people i know personally brag about WoW when they have no idea about what they're talking about, so thats why i post here, to get my anger out!

People who brag about WoW are not much diferent from people bashing WoW. Both sides use flawed arguments and are based mostly on personal opinions and personal feelings. I have nothing against personal views, not at all, in fact, I would go so far to say that there is realy one type of opinions, personal opinions, everything else is statistics, even the fundemental laws in physics are only statisticly true...

I am very new in this genre, but first thing I did when I discovered it was to explore what else is there... I watched too many crappy movies in the past to know not to base my opinions on one product, when there are all those alternatives... WoW is the only game I played for some time, dedicated so to say, but I tryed # of other's by trials and even though I see some real potential in some of them (mostly EVE) I just didn't get hooked. I'm a graphic whore to some extent so when I start a game if the look and feel of the world or the character animations are bland it's a major turnoff, and I just can't realy enjoy it and it start's feeling like work very soon....

I guess I was destined to play WoW, when you mentioned a real strategy game, first thing to come to mind was Starcraft and countless LAN's with my friends, we even used ones apartment for full year with 6 PC's there and Starcraft was the game for which it was all set up...

But to say anything like WoW PVP is the worst or best is just silly and those who can't see that will probably never do. I see alot people saying WoW is not the best, it's just that there is nothing better..   The best?!? What does that mean? The best RP, best PVP, best PVE, best crafting??? please, can anyone state the one thing which would make one MMO TeH bEst

Also there is a saying that WoW's just a copy of older MMO's, taking only the good parts and polyshing them, maybe, I don't know, haven't played all of them. If it took the good thing's and you say it's simple and dumb, maybe that just means that there never was many actualy good and working game features in the games of old. Skill sytem don't mix with LVL sytem so it's safe to assume that WoW went with LVL's cus that system is more time consuming and guaranties longer subscription times then skill system

I guess I wanted to say something else but can't remember right now...

Oh and calling someone stupid because he likes WoW, well, it's stupid. If you show an MMORPG and PacMan to a person who never played a video game before, he would probably like PacMan more, not because he is stupid, but because he don't have a history in gaming and playing a MMORPG requires some skills that can only be aquired  by playing much simpler games before steping into a digital world. My dad loves MahJong and Tetris, but when I showed him WoW, it was too complex for him and din't even bother to learn the ropes, I certanly don't think he's stupid because of that, but he kicks my ass in table tennis...

The thing about WoW which is amazing is the complete smoothness of the game.  Blizzard just does amazing work when it comes to programming, interface design and overall "feel".  It generally leads to a very fun experience for quite some time, even if the game is designed to be accessible at the expense of complexity, to be smooth and free-flowing at the expense of outright difficulty.

When I fired up TBC earlier this week after not having played WoW for several months, I was struck again at how easy it was to jump into the game, to use the controls, move around and interact with the environment, how beautifully rendered the environment actually is, how the lack of zoning adds to the sense of free-flow and numerous other things that just make for an incredibly smooth gaming experience.  It may get boring after a while (after all, everything does), but honestly it has to be admitted that Blizzard really knows how to make games that have a mass appeal based on fun, that are designed around mass-market fun rather than elite niche complexity.  And TBC is just another iteration of that same, well-done model.

wow is casual easy grind fest to much item based pvp sucks.

So for me wow is crap if 20 milliond would play or 100million i still say its crap.

My 2 cents:P