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Originally posted by oglem

Hi all,

Another wonderful piece avoiding the problem, you are now saying, I wanna play an MMO without playing the multiplayer content.

Small Grouping while nasty in pickup form becomes a romp with friends when you make some (Largely missed by your solo play style).

Large Groups or Guilds/Corps are based on the notion of a number of players working together for a common goal, so far every article you seem to make a case for if you cant do it on your own its bad because it doesn’t fit "your" style. Did you ever play team sport?

With this current article you are now a proponent of a single player rpg with a chat service.
"I don’t necessarily need to be interacting directly with them at any given moment, but I do enjoy knowing that they’re there"

It becoming very clear you want MMO's to become something that requires no multiplayer interaction that leaves you with ORPG. Go buy NWN1/2 and find a PW.

,
Oglem

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Oglem you are missing the whole point. As stated there are numerous ways to intereact in a mulitplayer setting without it having to revolve around the base content of killing things or doing quests.

Trading, crafting, exploring new areas, etc are all forms of the multiplayer content you are speaking of that do not involve grouping. These are viewed as musts or needed elements of all MMO's yet when this arguement is dicussed these are over looked.

With your stance should it not take 3 people to craft one item at one sitting? No just making base items to have them put together later but 3 or 4 people in a group all crafting together?

Or shouls there be allowed the types of trading that allow people to sit idle in a bazaar or market for hours on end selling things? Should they have to be grouped together and actively hawking thier goods?

You can not only look at one aspect and say this is how it should be done without first looking at all aspects to see if they fit the way your trying to make the others.

I like the term psycho used earlier in this thread,soloable content...  I enjoy grouping most of the time but I love solo'ing as well. Not to mention imo no offline game i have tryed compairs. As it was said earlier, the game is dead no matter how pretty it may be. Another point that erks me is the crafting system in offline games. Doesnt even come close to MMOs.  Some of you out there might not have played or remembered how EQ used to be, that was a group game. You where forced to group if ya ever wanted to get anywhere except for a few classes and they could only solo to a point. The biggest thing is choice imo, im paying for the game and if I wanna log on a solo or find a group, both should be availible.

 

I love grouping, I love pickup groups because it adds to the excitement of picking up an unkown fellow traveler and the unpredictability factor of a pickup group adds to the excitement for me i guess, it keeps me on my toes, not knowing whats gonna come next while in a battle encounter, and this is also a great way to make friends, or make enemy's hehe, if the people i meet whilst venturing are jerks, i put em on ignore or dual em.

I do indeed like solo content as well, that is the option i use when i have limeted time to play , which is as of lately, My wife has a broken leg, shes 8 months prego, and i have a 5 year old son, so inbetween the catering to the wounded, doing my sons stuff, and a plethora of doctors appointments, i enjoy the solo content.

While I am not among those who solo frequently, one of my RL friends is. Why MMO's? Regular content updates. He occasionally groups with friends as well but primarily plays alone. When I asked about other options (NWN, TES, etc), his reply was "I play those, too!"  His job is one of those "you have to be there even when there are no customers/whatever" that usually allows him about 30 hours a week of being-paid-to-play type gigs. And he plays avidly after hours as well. Must be nice!

I agree with much of what was said.  I personally don't like random groups, and unfortunately I don't always have in-game friends available, but I love knowing that there are other live people in the game world.  It adds another dimension to game-play that's just awesome to me.  It's a good feeling, I guess.  It gives me warm fuzzies...

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Originally posted by boognish75

I love grouping, I love pickup groups because it adds to the excitement of picking up an unkown fellow traveler and the unpredictability factor of a pickup group adds to the excitement for me i guess, it keeps me on my toes, not knowing whats gonna come next while in a battle encounter, and this is also a great way to make friends, or make enemy's hehe, if the people i meet whilst venturing are jerks, i put em on ignore or dual em.

I do indeed like solo content as well, that is the option i use when i have limeted time to play , which is as of lately, My wife has a broken leg, shes 8 months prego, and i have a 5 year old son, so inbetween the catering to the wounded, doing my sons stuff, and a plethora of doctors appointments, i enjoy the solo content.

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Alright, this has nothing to do with any of this...but, hey Boognish...big ween fan? 

I for one prefer to solo through most of the early stages of an mmo.  It alows me time to get acquainted with people in a social way, and affords me time to explore and get a feel for the game.  I may group in 2's and 3's occasionally during this period but primarily as a way to get a feel for some of the guilds and the people in those guilds.  Then after a month or so of gaming in this fashion I will, most of the time, be mid to high leveled and familiar with those I consider to be good folks and will have kept in contact with them in a purely social manner and get invited to higher level groups for different content.  Then I normally get invited to join the guild in short order.

Then, if I am near to end game, I will take someone up on their offer and spend the majority of my time still exploring and soloing but with the added comfort of guild chat as I get to know the rest of the guild and see who I can or can not get along with.  I will spend a decent amount of time helping some of the lower level people in the guild and occasionally tackle high end content.  But for the most part I play alone or with one or two close friends... people that I will drag from other games, or people that drag me into a new game :)

I'm pretty much a lone wolf irl, and my in game characters reflect that.  I am friendly to anyone I come across but rarely if ever seek anyone outside my circle, people come to me not the other way around.

Myself is a very hardcore extr3m3 mmo gamer. I love mmos and will easily drop my social life in a matter of seconds to join a instanced group or what not. I dont need lectures on "thats bad for you" either, Im just expressing how much of a gamer I am so that my next point makes better sense.

I have played many mmos and not just for short terms either, I usually grind full level before I bail on a mmo. These mmos include SWG(was my first), Eve Online, Matrix Online, Planetside Online, DDO, WoW, Knight Online, Roma Victor, City of Villans, Auto Assalt, Silkroad Online.

Now threw all those games I played many many diffrent player styles, some I was a tank class, others I was a healer class, I tried all sorts of diffrent things. Something I always did though, was I had to solo at times. It wasn't that I didn't want to group, or no one was online(even though this was partly the case in which got me started on soloing). I was an excellent team player and always would try to listen or lead the groups to victory. But theres alot of good reasons to solo.

For starters all loot is 100% yours when you solo, no worry about sharing or splitting. 100% profit when you go soloing. To continue you didn't have to keep checking to make sure the group is healed, the healer isn't being attacked, basicly less responsibility. Not to mention you truly found out what your made of. When people first told me in swg that a paticular instance(hk) was impossible to solo, I tried, it took about 4 tries until I got it. But I finally soloed the instance, was one of the first to solo it too in the game. I learned alot more about the instance when I did solo it. I also used that loot I had gained and sold it without having to worry about splitting.

When you solo its not just because you don't have any friends on, I solo because its a bigger challenge, bigger reward, and overall more fun. I like to find out just exactly what I can take and can't take, Soloing not only helps you become a richer player, but also a better expiernced player. For example...

I played SWG off and on from when it first came out, but when I first came back to the NGE(New Game Enchanments) I was about 1 month and a half behind everyone else. So for the next week straight I did nothing but solo various instances and "elite" mobs. When I came back out of the wilderness after my week training and began to pvp, I killed about 15 people in 1 night. Diffrent people and that was a feat at the time as you would only see about 5 people overt at a time. The next day I did that HK run(just happened to be that time that someone told me HK was imossible to solo) and everyone in my group died but me and my buddy.

Thats when it hit me, Soloing isn't JUST for the casual gamer. In fact its the ultimate training ground for the hardcore gamers. It has everything a hardcore gamer desires and more. Fame, Money, Power, Respect, etc. So to sum my counter article(seeing as how long it is) I have to disagree with the main article and what alot of the "majoty" is saying here and say that in fact More hardcore gamers should be soloing then casual gamers.

Pre-CU SWG has been noted as create a feeling of good socalizing that has never been re-created.  You could go for hours in a group without talking. So why did it have this strong Socializing feeling?

The down time in Pre-CU allowed players to "just sit there" while they recovered Wounds and Battle Fatigue.  This lack of activity, while recovering from combat gave players the oppertunity to "Talk".  The same machanic was also the Casual Players bane as they didnt want to waste time talking to a dancer or other people.  Shuttle waits were also down time that allowed players to express themselves along with Buff Lines.

Post-CU counter to these mechanics are the UI changes for Model chat, quick self buffs, NO Battle Fatgue, NO Wounds and NO group required Leveling Mechanic.

Its important to note these aspects of SWG as many games don't have required Down Time.

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Originally posted by JYCowboy

Pre-CU SWG has been noted as create a feeling of good socalizing that has never been re-created.  You could go for hours in a group without talking. So why did it have this strong Socializing feeling?

The down time in Pre-CU allowed players to "just sit there" while they recovered Wounds and Battle Fatigue.  This lack of activity, while recovering from combat gave players the oppertunity to "Talk".  The same machanic was also the Casual Players bane as they didnt want to waste time talking to a dancer or other people.  Shuttle waits were also down time that allowed players to express themselves along with Buff Lines.

Post-CU counter to these mechanics are the UI changes for Model chat, quick self buffs, NO Battle Fatgue, NO Wounds and NO group required Leveling Mechanic.

Its important to note these aspects of SWG as many games don't have required Down Time.

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Just a little hint: we talking mmorpg's right ..not singleplayer game cause htats what you refure to it seems, forgive me if i'm wrong but pre-cu wasn't just a game it was a world and had everything in it like in the real world but in a sw setting, maybe you might have noticed but if someone needs a bus the bus does not suddenly appear to take that person to its destination, no maybethe person needs to wait, so having this ingame isn't always fun but it sure makes it more realistic, people not talking in groups happend with me after CU, a totaly different crowed stepped into SWG wich i refure to as the people with only FPS exp. bringing that exp. into what once was mmorpg to make it a mmog.

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Originally posted by Reklaw

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Originally posted by JYCowboy

Pre-CU SWG has been noted as create a feeling of good socalizing that has never been re-created.  You could go for hours in a group without talking. So why did it have this strong Socializing feeling?

The down time in Pre-CU allowed players to "just sit there" while they recovered Wounds and Battle Fatigue.  This lack of activity, while recovering from combat gave players the oppertunity to "Talk".  The same machanic was also the Casual Players bane as they didnt want to waste time talking to a dancer or other people.  Shuttle waits were also down time that allowed players to express themselves along with Buff Lines.

Post-CU counter to these mechanics are the UI changes for Model chat, quick self buffs, NO Battle Fatgue, NO Wounds and NO group required Leveling Mechanic.

Its important to note these aspects of SWG as many games don't have required Down Time.

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Just a little hint: we talking mmorpg's right ..not singleplayer game cause htats what you refure to it seems, forgive me if i'm wrong but pre-cu wasn't just a game it was a world and had everything in it like in the real world but in a sw setting, maybe you might have noticed but if someone needs a bus the bus does not suddenly appear to take that person to its destination, no maybethe person needs to wait, so having this ingame isn't always fun but it sure makes it more realistic, people not talking in groups happend with me after CU, a totaly different crowed stepped into SWG wich i refure to as the people with only FPS exp. bringing that exp. into what once was mmorpg to make it a mmog.

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Don't get me wrong.  I prefer the "sandbox" to the NGE.  It was the "Quest for More Money" that unbalanced SWG and change these fundamental elements and killed the social envirment that we had.  It was complex and engaging.  It had bad elements but they could be overlooked, mostly, in favor of the rich world it was.  The Star Wars Licences was viewed as just as important as World of Warcraft and should gain comparable subs.  The flaw in this thinking was too much effort in changing game play and not enough in game quality.  The Star Wars name would only carry the game so far.  Couple this with the rocky history of Customer/Developer relations and you can see why we have the ugly situation today.

I love SWG as its the only Star Wars MMO.  I am first and formost a Star Wars fan but I know there are much better MMOs now.

Solo content has always been high on my list of things I look for in a MMO.  I used to play SWG (pre-CU) and it was great because we could solo almost anything, however I liked to group for certain things like PVP and high end content.  Finding a group has always been a kill-joy for me. 

 

CoV for example, that game is so much fun, but you can’t level or have any fun really (unless you are a stalker for some cases) without a team.  Not that I am totally against the teaming part, but some times you spend more time looking for a team then you actually spend in a team.  The other reason teams get to me is that to have fun you have to be in a good team where everyone knows what they are supposed to do, which is not very common for some reason, well in my experience anyways.

 

If I could solo most of my leveling and save teaming/grouping for high level content, quests, or pvp then I would have found the MMO for me.

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Originally posted by oglem 

. . . you seem to make a case for if you cant do it on your own its bad because it doesn’t fit "your" style.

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As u seem to be attempting to be making a case that if ppl want the option to solo it's bad because it doesn't suit your style.

It doesn't have to be either/or, and not even for any particular player.  There are times when I like to group and times when I like to solo.  Why are u intolerant of those who don't only want to play the way you want to play?  Why not both?

Zeka

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Originally posted by nobleeagle

When you play a singleplayer game, such as Oblivion, it may play and look better, but one is painstakingly aware that everything is "dead". I'm the only one there. The cool thing about MMORPG is that the place is alive and full of life with real living people. All the characters represent actual humans - not some program. This is what makes MMORPG attractive for some of us. But I still enjoy the singleplayer aspect, which is why I'd like MMORPGs to have even more soloplay content than they do. One does not need to be in a group to enjoy the social side of a MMORPG.

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I agree absolutely.  While I love grouping with my friends there are times when they are not on and I don't feel like or have time to wait for a group.  I love knowing there are other people out there if I wish to talk or group but that I am not forced to do so if I just want to adventure alone.  :)

I usually solo most of the time.  As someone above mentioned, I like MMOs because they feel more like live and changing worlds because of other players, even if I am not playing with them.   Also I like playing a part in an active economy.  That is something you don't get from single player games.   And from time to time I enjoy grouping with other players, and with a MMO I can do that.   Also even if I am not partied with other players I can chat with them and run across friends in the wild from time to time.  

Then there is the running into other players that you can see need help and being able to join them for a short time and help them out.   These are all the things that to me make playing MMOs fun.

To me the whole Solo/Group player debate is no different thant he Raiders/Non-Raider debate.  You should be free to play the game how you wish.  That is the beauty of a good MMO.    Want to group with 40 of your friends, fine feel free to do so.  But if you rather just go it alone because you are in a bad mood and don't want to socialize, why can't you do so as well.

Saying that a solo player shouldn't play an MMO is to me akin to saying that a kid playing by himself shouldn't be allowed in a park unless he is on the merry-go-around with the other kids.   

I solo 99% of the time in any MMO that I play.  I DON'T play to interact with other people, I interact with people all day in my job.  I play MMO's because they don't end [usually] before I get bored with them.  Single player games may last for 60hrs - then what? Play over as another class? <yawn>  Some MMO's have a decent storyline and interesting things to do which can be done in a short playtime period; those are the ones I play.  Ryzom has been my favorite  so far, among AO, EQ1, AC1,DAoC and DDO.  I've taken a break from Ryzom for about a year [we'll see what happens now] and currently play DDO.

I'm not so mysanthropic as to ignore someone taking a "dirtnap" and will help anyone who asks, but don't be offended if I refuse to group with you.

 

  Interaction with other fellow players is one of the primary reasons for subscribing to a MMO.  It's the developers that've attempted to link that wanted interaction with game content that requires grouping, raiding, etc.  Is the game more fun when able to group with others to progress, in my experience absolutely!  However, there are times when a player cannot find others to progress with, hence the too often LFG picnic.  Sorry, that last reference was from my olden EQ days.  There should be soloable content in MMOs as well as content for grouping, parting, raiding, etc of various sizes.  The idea that developers of MMOs need to remember is that us customers/players join their game to have fun!  If we cannot progress our character it makes sense that our amount of fun will be limited.  Players not having fun will more than likely leave the game to locate another game that allows more fun.  If it's settled that there should be content offered for all, then it's just the debate of how much allocation of content for various player sizes & what content.  I like soloable content, but I do enjoy progressing with fellow players more.  Developers just needn't get hung-up on the idea of it's the customers/players' fault because of the playing style & this is a MMO.  We join your game to have fun.   

Just a quick assertion that I love MMORPGS, am very much enjoying Guild Wars and DDO right now, and have exhausted my interest in WoW. I do not like pug grouping, for the most part; I have little patience for other people.....and little patience for those who have little patience

BUT: I love chatting, I love socializing and playing with friends, I love making friends who I can play with in groups. My best WoW moments were when I was very interactive in a great guild, and when the guild eventually fell apart (people who moved on to other endgame guilds, essentially, leaving casual players like myself behind whop didn't have time to keep up), much of the charm of the game went away. In fact, the overly intensive endgame elements and grinding of WoW pretty much killed it for me.

Now, I love DDO right now because it offers a lot of soloable content. I often only have an hour or two to play, and getting groups is not always easy; I'm not aggressive about forming groups, and I don't play clerics so I don't generally get invited. And with Guild Wars....I LOVE this game, because I don't have to wait for a group, I can grab some NPC bots and take off! It's frickin awesome.

A key thing to emphasize here: if you expect to get all your RPGing out of the single player games, you will eventually exhaust those options and crave more. MMORPGS can last a hell of a long time, and frankly, games like Guild Wars would be awesome single player offline experiences, IMO. If more single player games were like GW, I'd be more in to them. But much as I love NWN and Elder Scrolls.....I do miss having other players on and having the option to play with friends. It's just those MMORPGS that force me to play group whether I like it or not that I avoid or eventuall leave (I'm looking at you, WoW endgame experience!)

 

LOL.  Peoples who think MMOs are about socialising?

 

*run away*

 

I want NOTHING to do with these guys.  I PLAY games.  The multiplayer component of a MMO to me is mostly about GROUPING or competition, and that is it.  If you want to socialised, well duh, get off your computer!  Yes, there is SOME socialisation, but not much, and I am certainly not playing these game for that, that is the worst possible place to socialised, as you have no idea with who you are to start.

 

Gah, when I read that, I want to run away from whatever these guys are playing.  See, some devs understand the point they make about socialising, they create: THERE, Raiding, and much more despectable stuff that I would NEVER play (again).

 

When the devs remove unlimited levels (in general, speaking at large), I was sad.  But I accept this change for the casuals; anyway I can be happy up to the level cap and then finish it and go to something else, having a good experience with the game.  When the devs try to enforce grouping, I am pissed.  I am a grouper, first and foremost, but enforcing isn't good.  Even for these socialisers it wouldn't be good, however they can't understand what socialising is.  When the devs put lames gameplays, such as raiding, I quit.

 

See, raiding can't replace unlimited levels.  It doesn't appeal to the same players.  Unlimited levels is MORE of what the peoples are enjoying...while raiding is a FOREIGN gameplay, which has nothing to do with the game up to that point where it was introduced.  Raiding to me, is a little like if you get drunk and wake up with a gal that turn out to be a guy who got an operation and then you start itching...luckily for me, the example above never happen to me, unluckily to me, Brad give me that raiding experience.  Which isn't cool, not cool at all... I was definitely a nicer person prior raiding 

I think a good MMO supports a great diversity of play styles. It allows people with many different ideas and goals to come together and experience the same world. For me it varies, there were times when I just wanted to make solo adventuring and others when I group for weeks and months. It really depends on my mood, and I am glad if a game allowes ME to chose not forces me to a narrow path.

Essentially I think the basic question is not so much if soloing is possible, but if it is worth the time. In  the MMOs I play now I group most of the time because I enjoy grouping over soloing. But I understand ppl have many reasons to solo and respect that. I had times when I was quite fed up from MMOs grouping and had little time, so I was a soloer once too. The issue however is, soloing is hardly really rewarding. It is still a step-child in MMOs, which is a pity, since the effort a player puts into his character is the same or even more, since doing all alone means you have to take all the risk and no one is there to back you up in trouble or guide your directions if you are lost.

On the other hand, the more solo friendly a game is, alas, the more difficult is becomes to find a group. Many people seem to solo if the can and if mob or quest difficulty does not force them to group. I am today very split over the entire issue.

I think one of the basic problem that makes people prefer to solo is that if you have little time a lot is wasted if you want to find a group, get everyone together and ready, the many bad groups that lead to the regular "wipes" and so on. So if you have little time and focus on grouping it is highly likely that a lot of your precious time will go wasted. It just takes too long to start the fun part in MMOs still, no matter if you are casual or hardcore. Even though I have lots of time, it sux to wait and wait and wait for all participants to finally come from the other end of the world, all get their drink and food, talking about the aims and goals... it just takes endless to really actually start the fun part of questing and fighting.