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12/08/06 6:56:08 PM#21
This article neglects to mention that places like McDonalds will pay you for 8 hours of work. Why would anyone want to pay to work at WoW?
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12/08/06 7:35:50 PM#22
The editorial is a moot point. Why? Simple Raid or Die is dead in WoW TBC will effectivly kill it and that isn't a bad thing. Blizzard realizes that killing the same dragon over and over and over and over and over and over again. is about as much fun as root canal without Novocain. TBC is the beginning ...the beginning of the end of Raiding The Elder game will be based on Non repeatable level based epic quest that require a small (As in Ten) group of friends. They will be able to do these quest in stages and in the end will receive a class specific epic for completing the quest. Bullcrap you say? Nope, heard this one from Tom Chilton the new Lead designer for WoW. See Tom hates Raiding, and was hand picked by Pardo and Metzen to fix the two years of Raid or Die that Jeff Kapplen forced upon the community. So while TBC will have 25 man Raids Expansion Pack Two (Which will be announced in March 2008) will pretty much eliminate Raiding. Good Riddance I say as raiding has done nothing to advance the genre since that Idiot Kapplen first started crying about it when EQ was all the rage. |
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12/08/06 9:01:13 PM#23
I despise raiding, I truly do. Not only due to the ridiculous time sink that it is, but the caste system it fosters. The whole haves and have nots, the elites vs the noobs, the hardcores vs the casuals. I absolutely hate that only one play style is ever given the best a game has to offer and to hell with everyone else, but I don't want to see it disappear. There is room in these games for many play styles, if the developers would just think outside of the raiding box and see that all play styles deserve the best rewards the game has to offer. If a person likes raiding, then who cares if you can get the same gear more easily in a solo quest or 5 man instance, they're going to raid. If they stop raiding, then that tells you the system is flawed and not fun. This preposterous idea that giving out equal rewards somehow demeans a different play style is the pipe dream of a hardcore developer. Everyone puts effort into their game play and should be rewarded for it. Just because a hardcore feels casual play is easy doesn't make it so for the casual player, its all relative to the player. The primary mistake that developers make currently is to compare play styles rather than see them as legitimate time investments in their own right. Sadly, the market is saturated with raiding as the only real end game. This needs to change and developers need to start treating all play styles as legitimate gameplay and deserving of equal representation in their games. |
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12/08/06 11:47:59 PM#24
Many would simply point to smaller group sizes, such as endgame instances capped at 5 people. Unlike the author of this article seems to believe, raiding doesn't foster more social interaction; joining a raid guild means sacrificing a large chunk of your in-game relationships, shutting up, and taking orders from a bunch of morons who are unfit to lead. /AGREE!!!!!!! |
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12/08/06 11:52:30 PM#25
This is awesome, AWESOME news! I hate raiding, but with stages to end-game instance quests, you don't have to repeat the same part of a instance over and over to get further in the next time...and ten people or less...I can get into that. I just might be able to play end game again!!! /cheers loudly. |
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12/09/06 12:16:42 AM#26
Do you have a link to where he said this (if it was in an interview?) I always thought Chilton was part of the problem as much as Kaplan. He was the lead designer for an Expansion in Ultima Online called Age of Shadows that broke Ultima Online's skill-based mechanics in favor of an item-based system. He comes onto WoW and the game that was being previewed in it's original beta as not being item-based turns into nothing but item-based upon release. I truly would like to see what you say happen to WoW Martinj63, but Chilton is a lead designer just like Kaplan, and it seems hard to believe he couldn't exert any influence to stop the Raid or Die mentality that took over the game. The idea of a non-repeated level-based epic quest sounds awesome. But I haven't heard anything about that nor read anything about that on the BC beta forums (which are open to the public). I haven't been looking very hard, so maybe I missed it. If you find any links, please post them. Until I hear otherwise (and see the results of the Expansion), I'll keep blaming BOTH Chilton and Kaplan for perpetuating the tired, worn-out raid game mechanics from EQ because of their lack of originality and general ignorance about what really makes good game play.
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12/09/06 1:01:23 AM#27
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12/09/06 4:43:41 AM#28
I think that this article helps people to understand gaming from another point of view. End game ended stressed me alot at the end. Not the many days per week. But infact the "slackers" did. So i decided to take a break from the game. and who know i might try a new one out. Vanguard.
/thedane lvl 60 priest lickie darksorrow Retired lvl 60 paladin starman twillights hammer Retired
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12/09/06 9:18:59 AM#29
The idea sounds great on paper. Now try to imagine just how much content now must be added to keep people with something to do. If every "epic quest" is non-repeateable, and every attendant only get one class specific item, then damn it's going to be trivial and "boring" very fast. How many different items drops from a boss mob? How many times can you kill a boss mob before there's nothing else of worth killing that boss mob for? Let's say they added 100 of these "epic quests", each of them only possible to do once and only 10 per run. That means there are content for 1000 players. When those 1000 players (the key classes, those that are required to complete the "epic quest") they can't do it again since, yeah you guessed it, it's non-repeatable. Then what happens to the remaining players that now can't do those quests, because the key classes already did them and can't do them again? Ofcourse I wouldn't think they didn't make some way to make the same people do the same quest over and over and over and over and over and over and over to help the rest through, they just have no chance of a reward whatsoever because they only got that only the first run (I'm guessing that's the "non-repeatable" part). As for the amount of "epic quests" to do, Blizzard just made A LOT more work for themselves, with no more income to compensate. Why? Because a raid is repeatable. You can keep entire guilds occupied with that for months, and that's just 1 raid. Now you have a "epic quest"? One guild would do that same "epic quest" 5+ times (50+ members) and then they'd have to find something else to do. Then there is the part about doing the quest in stages. I'm guessing the reward is only upon completion of the quest. How long does that take? Hours? Days? Weeks? If it takes Hours or maybe even a Day or two, then it might be worth it, it's after all 10 people that gets an item each time. If it takes more than that, why waste the time on a reward several days away, when spending some hours doing a raid will give you rewards at the end of those hours of raiding? Does it involve a lot of travelling? How much? Do you have to travel from one end of the world to the other several times to complete these "epic" stages? Or does it all take place in some instance equipped with a pause button? Once again it comes down to how much wasting of time there will be, before recieving the reward. Why spend hours travelling back and forth to no gain (except immense boredom) if you can clear an instance, kill a boss and recieve rewards? Please note that my opinions and comments are purely based on what I've read in this thread. I know no more if the subject which I've quoted than what I've found in this thread. If I'm blatantly wrong on some points, then just say so and correct them. Oh yea, and let's try seeing some editorials that doesn't have "WoW", "World of Warcraft", "Blizzard" either in wording or meaning in either Subject or Content. It becomes rather annoying to read one "WoW editorial" after another. Can just go read the WoW forums if I want the opinions and whatnot. I come here to MMORPG.com to see and read about more than one MMOG. |
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12/09/06 11:19:57 AM#30
Great article, so true too. I've been lucky enough to fall into, and rise to officer in a giuld who's focus is to maintain a fun and friendly gametime atmosphere before all else. We avoid those DKPs or whatevr system that turns the endgame into a second job. The result is that our endgame runs are sometime made of unballanced parties, a little less organized and considerably slower going.
On the flip side, the lack of pressure that we put on eachother and the policy of kindness and generosity we treat eachother with keeps the game as fun as when we were all a low level guild. The game is still a place we can go to in order to have fun. It's not a style that's for everybody, and we have to be strict about booting less than mature members, but the guild membership grows by itself because of the way we play: We don't have to actively recruit and our membership numbers continue to climb weekly. We must be doing something right. :) http://erickveil.com/ |
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12/09/06 12:53:58 PM#31
my problems with end game is first creates way way to much politics. A whole guild can fall apart of just one screwed up raid. Second is that it becomes a polarizing factor often people spend so much time on end game that they nolong focus on others. aka the few in a guild that have got to end game mainling meaning the leaders and they rest of the guild now missing the support. The time it takes to lvl in wow from 40-60 is equal to the time spent lvling from 1-40 the game can turn into very duldrum all about getting the right stuff. That is why blizzard is coming out with an expation that increases the lvl cap so that people have somewhere now to reach.
And just to say it has anyone seen the new WoW advertisement about the guy playing at work and he tells him off. If you are that person your addicted. comeon anyone who does that better be thinking of it as a proffetion now becuase the wont have a job anymore. this goes for any hobbies too. |
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12/09/06 5:22:27 PM#32
"While still fun, the challenge of the high endgame is often fatiguing and monotonous in a similar way that doing the daily grind at work can become grey and doldrums." Molten Core was a blast the first five or so times, but soon becomes a bit of a mindless dance. Once you learn all the right steps there's no challenge or even thought involved. You literally just do the same thing over and over and over. Then there's the prep time for it (gathering materials for potions etc.), the amount of time you spend farming the right gear to do it, all the time stuffing around waiting for other raid members to arrive. After a month of this I realised I wasn't having fun, and faced with the prospect that this was all that WoW had left to offer, I left. For all his suggestions of getting out and taking breaks from the game his description of the WoW endgame as a monotonous grind is astute. And I for one don't want to pay $15 a month and invest my leisure time into an activity that is more work than fun. That would be absurd. But that's exactly the situation with WoW and many other mmo endgames. Instead of being the escapist fun they should be, their imitation of real-life is too close for my comfort. Players become ensnared in time-consuming monotonous activities - trapped between the thought of not wanting to waste the time they've already invested and the lure of hard to obtain uber items which are nothing more than little bits of gamecode. Rather than imitating the less pleasant aspects of real-life, what mmos need to do is live up to the escapist ideal - giving people what they can't get from real-life. One thing that WoW and real-life have in common is that they're relatively static. The average person doesn't have a huge amount of influence over their world - from day to day they'll interact with their friends and family, progress in their careers, acquire new possessions etc. but do nothing to change the world at large. But several new mmos currently in development seem to have picked up on this deficit and are attempting to offer players more dynamic player-driven worlds. It's not a new concept - one of Horizon's few redeeming features was their attempt to give players the tools to shape the gameworld by building their own houses, towns and ultimately communities. I hope they succeed.
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damian7
Apprentice Member
Joined: 4/20/06
why must i be nice to people that have no clue, are lying, or are just stupid? |
12/09/06 6:48:58 PM#33
well, this editorial isn't about wow doing great things. it's about weak-willed people being sucked into a cartoon addiction and a 12-step (give or take) program on how to enjoy the addiction/job. could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please? |
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12/10/06 7:56:11 AM#34
This is a problem that will only get worse, games are becoming more mainstream now, and not just a niche thing like where in the original EQ 90% of players where hardcore. The thing is, the number of casual -games are just for fun not work- people outnumber the hardcore gamers, and it drives a wedge in many gaming communities between the haves and the haves nots. Though personality I think it takes alittle insanity for some hardcore gamers to claim their playstyle is the only valid one and if one cant accept being a "second class citizen" they should quit the game.
Raids, and hardcore gaming as the sole end game content is pretty sad, afterall if all the casual gamers would quit games like Wow, they'd be under in a week. Times are changing, MMOs should change with it, not by getting rid of Hardcore end game content, but by expanding to support players that dont believe they should be paying for a second full time job. Which is the sole reason my group of friends and I leave a MMO, we all have jobs and lives, we shouldnt be required make a online game another full time job, epecially when its Entertainment, its suppose to be fun and relaxing, not a second 9-5 job. |
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12/10/06 8:10:26 PM#35
IMO, high end raiding is not a good model for high end gaming. It requires too much time, and too much scheduled time. I feel that a game with a more diablo2-esque loot system and play style with MMO enhancements would provide a much more stable long-term MMO model. I'm sure many will argue and tell me to look at wow. However, a very small portion of the people playing wow raid, and of those that do raid many (no guestimate as to % here) really have no interest in raiding but only do it for loot. All I can say is that I'd still rather make a Mephisto run then do any raid content in wow. Funny how a game with a tenth of the content is still 10x more enjoyable.
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Brainy
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 10/08/06
I will stop posting if you stop being an idiot. So if im still posting, I wonder what tha means? |
12/10/06 8:29:29 PM#36
Alot of people wont understand this article. The author did a great job articulating it. Most people cant understand that some people can enjoy themselves by becoming totally invested in something. Sure it takes hard work, lots of practice, tuff decisions, stressful sometimes .... but its all worth it because at the end when everyone is performing at the top of the game and everything is going smoothly it all comes together. Using the sports analogy. Sure pro's spend 6 days a week 10hrs a day practicing, "working hard", forming a team and buliding relationships on the team. But its all worth it for just the few hours of success at the end of the week. The bonds are so much tighter when people work hard to build them. This applies not only to MMO's but everything in life. Work, hobbies, team sports, science, even successful releationships... basically anything people can become great at. Hard work and practice is the key, but it all pays off in the end. People that dont get this article will go around there entire life, never experiencing the "end game". Never willing to put in the time to get the rewards. You will never see them as a pro athelete, olympic superstar, famous scientist, build a successful business from scratch, top CEO or anything else where someone can become GREAT. Go ahead and live your average lives, "ignorance is bliss" as the saying goes. |
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12/10/06 10:17:49 PM#37
Aaaah, the blissful cry of the elitist. You do realize you're talking about a video game, right? Nothing you do in a game has any bearing what so ever in yours or anyone else's life. It doesn't teach you any skills that will make your life easier or better. It doesn't pay the bills, it just bills you instead. You may make some online friends, but how many of those will you actually meet in person, let alone have any kind of meaningful relationship? You speak of goals and rewards as if they were real, even concrete, we're talking about pixels and code, you can't take a damn bit of it with you outside of the game. Its people like you that take these escapist games and try to turn them into an alternate reality. You define nerd, geek and freak. I feel sorry for you guys who have to turn to a game in order to gain some sense of accomplishment, some misguided belief that what you do in game matters to the world at large. Its pathetic. I would much rather have an average life than some fantastic fake one that can only be found in an online game. How sad. How can you sit there and consider that motivation in a game is relative to motivation in real life? There are pleny of us casuals who do good and hard work every single day and the last thing we want is a "game" that expects us to work rather than play and relax. Raiding is a tedious and boring job. I have no desire to work a second job and pay some MMO company for the privelege. If this is the kind of content that these developing companies are going to stick with, then they've lost my patronage permanently. If they ever pull their collective heads out of the asses and come up with something actually entertaining for an endgame, then I might consider coming back. |
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12/10/06 11:26:02 PM#38
post deleted by user. |
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Copenhagen
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 11/11/06
God is great, Beer is good, and People are Stupid! |
12/11/06 12:52:34 AM#39
Oh man...I really don't even know where to start.
Raids...WoW...this thought gives me a headache...really While I see that some people like raiding. Thats a given. But, WoW especially for one...has driven this type of game play into the ground about as far as it can go I belive. Actually...to be quite honest, there are several games that have driven this into the ground way too much. Raids being a nice unique type of gameing to satisfiy a certain type of gamer...has pretty much killed any fun that any other type of gamer can have in these types of games. I've played WoW...I really liked WoW when I first bought it. I even played some 4 odd...charactors to 60 and joined a Hard Core Raiding guild to see what all the fuss was about...boy did I get my self into a mix! That is about the least amount of fun that I belive I've had in any type of game that I've ever played in my entire life. Since then I've quit WoW...Signed back up...Quit WoW...signed back up...a couple times before I realized. I'm Insane! I'm doing the same thing over and over and over again while expecting different results. So... I honestly don't think TBC is going to get me back into that game...I mean really...I've washed my hands of it once and for all. After all that tourment we've been put through...I don't think I would play that game again...even if they gave me the expansion for free and gave me a years subscription to boot. If thats the type of gameing i'm going to be subjected to for my $15.00 dollars a month. I'll find something else better to spend my money on...Maybe a gym membership so I can get my fitness/and health back up to par? lol. I mean really WoW may have 7 million subscribers...but they are at least one more less now. Cause I quit! Enough about WoW already please? This is fixen to be '07 and there is a host of games coming out this year that is going to put an exceptional dent in WoW's subscriber base I belive. They should have stuck with Raiding in TBC, cause they are getting ready to lose about every other type of gamer they have. |
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12/11/06 12:53:19 AM#40
I am not by any means a "casual" player, I play a lot...I enjoy many online games. I know as much as the next guy. Me and my wife have been playing games like WoW since Ultima. All I know is that if the game puts out a super duper ultimate piece of equipment or some super duper uber luber mob to kill, some people will NOT stop till it's thiers. I do not knock them for that. But I DO know a lot of those people, those people that leave the guild your in to go off and do more wonderful things..and those people are different creatures than me. While they have fun going after these lofty, time comsuming goals, I enjoy logging on, winging it, discovering things a little at a time. I'm not one of those guys that goes and looks for every screen shot of the new expansion till he knows it back and forth before it comes out. I actually like the feeling of discovery more than the feeling of being number one.
Sorry if this is off point, but I see so many discussions about "hardcore gamers" or "endgame players". I will go ahead and bet that MOST players, before WoW and after, will not be these "hardcore players". And after all, I duel these hardcore guys ALL the time, in their massive gear, and win. (The stats are NOT that big of a difference!)Sorry, had to throw that in there. 
Listen to the Spouse Aggro podcast at spouseaggro.com. Twitter: spouseaggro |
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Kapplen lost favor with Metzen and Pardo when he just wouldn't shut up with the Smart Ass Raid or Quit Comments at Blizcon and the NY Times Interview was basically the last straw. Metzen then named Chilton as Co Lead developer Furor was outsourced and ended up a Sigil and Blizzard started saturating game sites with information that basically refuted everything Kapplen said the TBC was going to be. 
