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News & Features Discussion  » Horizons: Special Report: The EI Catastrophe

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101 posts found
  Zippy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 1428

10/29/06 5:49:18 PM#61
Excellent article and coverage. :)

Horizons seemed to be building back a good base and a good reputation the last few years  It is sad to see this happen to game that arguably was the best crfating game ever made.  I neber thought I wiuld be sad to see David Bowman leave Horizons.
  Arremus

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 659

"... One crowded hour of glorious life,
Is worth an age without a name."
- Thomas Osbert Mordaunt

10/30/06 4:52:42 AM#62

Originally posted by snickel

The critique notwithstanding -- playing horizons even in the state the game is currently in is way better than missing out on it.

For me and many others (those that like to craft or like to play dragons) it is still the best game on the market.

I am sorry for everyone who is persuaded by this article and the ensuing discussion not to give it a try. Thats why I detest those people who take a delight in pronouncing it dead.


You know, I used to think this too after I left Horizons those many, many moons ago; "I am really going to miss the crafting".

But seeing as we are talking about Horizons, and its selling points, I have to say that the crafting in Saga of Ryzom FAR outdoes the mass-produce slider system of Horizons.
If anyone is thinking of trying out an MMO front a love of crafting standpoint, I would HIGHLY recommend not bothering with the Horizons nightmare and just try out the Ryzom trial.

I played Horizons for a year or so. Hmm probably 2.5+ years since I left now, and I have only thought about going back, for a day, for ONE reason.
To see my old friends.
I wouldn't bother doing that now though because I know they'll all be long gone.

People talk of the immense promise this game had, or o.O "has", when in reality, everything that's supposedly so good about it has been done 10x better in another MMO since.
Except for Dragons...

Well, if you want to play a bug riddled, lag riddled, mobs appearing 20m in front of you riddled game (do they still do this? ) for the sole purpose of playing a Dragon, all the power to you.

My advice to anyone would be to stay the HELL away though.
Great crafting + great exploring + great material gathering = Saga of Ryzom, end of story.

Horizons has failed miserably and has far outlived its use-by date.


"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
Oh. My. God.

  snickel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/05
Posts: 41

ahhh ... crafting!!!!

10/30/06 8:45:38 AM#63

Originally posted by Arremus

Originally posted by snickel

The critique notwithstanding -- playing horizons even in the state the game is currently in is way better than missing out on it.

For me and many others (those that like to craft or like to play dragons) it is still the best game on the market.

I am sorry for everyone who is persuaded by this article and the ensuing discussion not to give it a try. Thats why I detest those people who take a delight in pronouncing it dead.


You know, I used to think this too after I left Horizons those many, many moons ago; "I am really going to miss the crafting".

But seeing as we are talking about Horizons, and its selling points, I have to say that the crafting in Saga of Ryzom FAR outdoes the mass-produce slider system of Horizons.
If anyone is thinking of trying out an MMO front a love of crafting standpoint, I would HIGHLY recommend not bothering with the Horizons nightmare and just try out the Ryzom trial.

[...]

Well, I know Ryzom a little bit and if horizons would finally fall victim to the big bug zapper, I would definitely try to find a home in the Ryzom world. The crafting system in Ryzom is interesting and challenging.

But I would sure miss the opportunity to learn every craft with time (and on one char), and I would very much miss the chance to own a plot and decide which structures to build there, to embellish it with decoration and even useful things like machines.
I would miss the player events where we gather from all regions to build a mine, where dragons fly in with building units and me little gnome has the honor to apply them ... the chance to see a building pop into existence that you helped build and that is a boon to the world, like a bridge or a lighthouse...

I would miss so much in Ryzom, even though it could be called a crafting game as well. There's simply no competition with horizons for some experiences a crafter can have.


  KlausW

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/04
Posts: 165

Death is fleeting. Pride is forever.

10/30/06 11:46:43 AM#64


Originally posted by snickel

I meant the former Tulga employees and their friends who do their very best to harm the game. I have great respect for the work they did for the game while they still were in charge, but I feel they have gone out of their way and still do so to make sure that a game that they aren't involved in any more will fail.


I have no doubt you'd put me into that category, Snickel, but please understand: I do not under any circumstances want Horizons to fail. What I want is for EI to get its act together, start conducting business in an honest, ethical, legal manner, and invest the time and money it will take for them to be able to add new content and develop new game systems. I'd also be happy if they sold Horizons to an existing, professional development house that would be willing and able to make that investment.

I want EI to be as committed to the success and growth of Horizons as the players are. Right now, they are not, and that's not good enough.

Guildleader, Mithril Council, Chaos

  snickel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/05
Posts: 41

ahhh ... crafting!!!!

10/30/06 12:49:26 PM#65

Originally posted by KlausW


Originally posted by snickel

I meant the former Tulga employees and their friends who do their very best to harm the game. I have great respect for the work they did for the game while they still were in charge, but I feel they have gone out of their way and still do so to make sure that a game that they aren't involved in any more will fail.


I have no doubt you'd put me into that category, Snickel, but please understand: I do not under any circumstances want Horizons to fail. What I want is for EI to get its act together, start conducting business in an honest, ethical, legal manner, and invest the time and money it will take for them to be able to add new content and develop new game systems. I'd also be happy if they sold Horizons to an existing, professional development house that would be willing and able to make that investment.

I want EI to be as committed to the success and growth of Horizons as the players are. Right now, they are not, and that's not good enough.


Then we have a common goal -- horizons should become a success.

Still I fear we are not in agreement about the means to achieve this -- some TULGA-Fans have gone so far as to advise people to cancel their accounts, as if this could result in any positive development. Maybe they think that this might be a means to convince EII to sell the game to another owner --- I think this cannot and will not work and the only result will be harm to the game due to loss of subscribers and a bleeding out of the communities.

I think bashing the current owner of a game is not the way to achieve improvement. Like punishment will not make children better human beings, if that analogy bringt my point across.


  Parsifal57

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/05
Posts: 268

10/30/06 1:04:42 PM#66

Originally posted by snickel

Originally posted by KlausW


Originally posted by snickel

I meant the former Tulga employees and their friends who do their very best to harm the game. I have great respect for the work they did for the game while they still were in charge, but I feel they have gone out of their way and still do so to make sure that a game that they aren't involved in any more will fail.


I have no doubt you'd put me into that category, Snickel, but please understand: I do not under any circumstances want Horizons to fail. What I want is for EI to get its act together, start conducting business in an honest, ethical, legal manner, and invest the time and money it will take for them to be able to add new content and develop new game systems. I'd also be happy if they sold Horizons to an existing, professional development house that would be willing and able to make that investment.

I want EI to be as committed to the success and growth of Horizons as the players are. Right now, they are not, and that's not good enough.


Then we have a common goal -- horizons should become a success.

Still I fear we are not in agreement about the means to achieve this -- some TULGA-Fans have gone so far as to advise people to cancel their accounts, as if this could result in any positive development. Maybe they think that this might be a means to convince EII to sell the game to another owner --- I think this cannot and will not work and the only result will be harm to the game due to loss of subscribers and a bleeding out of the communities.

I think bashing the current owner of a game is not the way to achieve improvement. Like punishment will not make children better human beings, if that analogy bringt my point across.



    With an attitude like that to parenting i'd hate to have any involvment with children or projects of yours.

  dand3

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 241

10/30/06 1:13:17 PM#67

Originally posted by Arremus
You know, I used to think this too after I left Horizons those many, many moons ago; "I am really going to miss the crafting".

There have been many changes to all aspects of Horizons since release.  Crafting through tier V, with some tier VI, has been added, and Dragon Lairs are a major craft area.  Very well implemented too. 

It seems a bit presumptuous for someone who has not played for a long time to be commenting on the game as it exists now... 

  Cholayna

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/05/05
Posts: 1618

10/30/06 1:30:49 PM#68
hmmmm, I think somehow, maybe far back in the line these guys at EI are relatives or even pod buddies of the NP3/Farlan/AD DNL fiasco. Almost mirroring the same actions.
  Vallenar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/06
Posts: 124

10/30/06 2:09:44 PM#69

This is so sad it almost becomes funny.

To quote Homer Simpson "It's funny because I don't know them."

  Arremus

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 659

"... One crowded hour of glorious life,
Is worth an age without a name."
- Thomas Osbert Mordaunt

10/30/06 10:25:10 PM#70

Originally posted by dand3

Originally posted by Arremus
You know, I used to think this too after I left Horizons those many, many moons ago; "I am really going to miss the crafting".

There have been many changes to all aspects of Horizons since release.  Crafting through tier V, with some tier VI, has been added, and Dragon Lairs are a major craft area.  Very well implemented too. 

It seems a bit presumptuous for someone who has not played for a long time to be commenting on the game as it exists now... 



I was talking about the system of crafting, not how high you can craft.
How has the overall system/setup/mechanics of crafting changed since release?

Gathering up a crapload of resources, pushing a slider all the way to the right, crafting 50 x Generic Sword, then repeating over and over isn't really all that compelling a version of crafting you know..
Is it still the same as this? Or did the mechanics get revamped too?

Has there been many (any) new recipes added for all the tiers since release or a year after?

I am being presumptuous because I think I can safely bet that the setup is exactly the same as when I left the game, bar the ability to craft slightly higher stuff...


"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
Oh. My. God.

  Kassiah

Novice Member

Joined: 1/29/05
Posts: 72

Currently MMO hopping as I seek a new addiction. Awaiting: Fallen Earth (and a few others)

10/30/06 11:13:57 PM#71

Thanks for the great article, it was an interesting read for a former Horizon's player and Im looking forward to part 2. Over the years I have had the urge to give the game another go, and even tried the free trials twice, but never stuck with it. Of all the MMOs out there, Horizons is the one I most wanted to love, yet always ended up disappointing in. I still hang onto a dwindling hope it will one day be the great game it could have and should have been, but I fear that is just wishful thinking.

  User Deleted
10/30/06 11:46:10 PM#72


Originally posted by Arremus


Originally posted by dand3


Originally posted by Arremus
You know, I used to think this too after I left Horizons those many, many moons ago; "I am really going to miss the crafting".

There have been many changes to all aspects of Horizons since release.  Crafting through tier V, with some tier VI, has been added, and Dragon Lairs are a major craft area.  Very well implemented too.  It seems a bit presumptuous for someone who has not played for a long time to be commenting on the game as it exists now... 





I was talking about the system of crafting, not how high you can craft.
How has the overall system/setup/mechanics of crafting changed since release?

Gathering up a crapload of resources, pushing a slider all the way to the right, crafting 50 x Generic Sword, then repeating over and over isn't really all that compelling a version of crafting you know..
Is it still the same as this? Or did the mechanics get revamped too?

Has there been many (any) new recipes added for all the tiers since release or a year after?

I am being presumptuous because I think I can safely bet that the setup is exactly the same as when I left the game, bar the ability to craft slightly higher stuff...


Still the same bar-slider system. Still can't swim, you just walk along the bottom of the water and out the other side, or drown (except in Pratts Pond, which you can sit at the bottom of with no penalty. Some of the most horrid graphics I've ever seen, and that's at everything maxed. Who the hell wants a seam running down the back of their characters head, beards/hair that disappear into your body, characters that look like they are running with a corncob stuck in some dark place? The novelty of the dragon wears off quickly, so it's not an improvement as such. This game is still in late Alpha/ early beta phase as far as a finished product after all these years. How long can fanboism cause a person to be willing to pay for an unfinished game for years? With all the problems it has, and the state it's in, is it any wonder why a fleabag company like EI would be the only ones willing to touch it? Please. THE GAME IS DEAD. YOU JUST REFUSE TO CLOSE THE CASKET::::12::

  snickel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/05
Posts: 41

ahhh ... crafting!!!!

10/31/06 4:04:52 AM#73

Originally posted by Parsifal57

Originally posted by snickel

[...]

I think bashing the current owner of a game is not the way to achieve improvement. Like punishment will not make children better human beings, if that analogy bringt my point across.



    With an attitude like that to parenting i'd hate to have any involvment with children or projects of yours.


Either you completely misunderstood what I posted (I'm very critical of punishment as a major educational method, thats why I used the analogy to bring my point across that game-owner bashing is useless) or you still think that punishment is the way to go. In that case I hope that you'll take the time to research the effects of educational methods. You'll find that an education that focuses on punishment usually has the opposite results from the ones intended.
  snickel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/05
Posts: 41

ahhh ... crafting!!!!

10/31/06 4:14:19 AM#74

Originally posted by Zorvan




Still the same bar-slider system. Still can't swim, you just walk along the bottom of the water and out the other side, or drown (except in Pratts Pond, which you can sit at the bottom of with no penalty. Some of the most horrid graphics I've ever seen, and that's at everything maxed. Who the hell wants a seam running down the back of their characters head, beards/hair that disappear into your body, characters that look like they are running with a corncob stuck in some dark place? The novelty of the dragon wears off quickly, so it's not an improvement as such. This game is still in late Alpha/ early beta phase as far as a finished product after all these years. How long can fanboism cause a person to be willing to pay for an unfinished game for years? With all the problems it has, and the state it's in, is it any wonder why a fleabag company like EI would be the only ones willing to touch it? Please. THE GAME IS DEAD. YOU JUST REFUSE TO CLOSE THE CASKET::::12::


I'm beginning to feel very young, remembering when I played cops and robbers and we children would get into arguments on whether one of us was 'dead' or not.
You can shout THE GAME IS DEAD all you like, it doesn't change reality. The game is alive as long as people are left who play and enjoy it. Pronouncing it dead is just an indication that it is an urgent wish of you that it should be dead. But thats your problem, not the game's.
  User Deleted
10/31/06 4:33:35 AM#75


Originally posted by snickel


Originally posted by Zorvan



Still the same bar-slider system. Still can't swim, you just walk along the bottom of the water and out the other side, or drown (except in Pratts Pond, which you can sit at the bottom of with no penalty. Some of the most horrid graphics I've ever seen, and that's at everything maxed. Who the hell wants a seam running down the back of their characters head, beards/hair that disappear into your body, characters that look like they are running with a corncob stuck in some dark place? The novelty of the dragon wears off quickly, so it's not an improvement as such. This game is still in late Alpha/ early beta phase as far as a finished product after all these years. How long can fanboism cause a person to be willing to pay for an unfinished game for years? With all the problems it has, and the state it's in, is it any wonder why a fleabag company like EI would be the only ones willing to touch it? Please. THE GAME IS DEAD. YOU JUST REFUSE TO CLOSE THE CASKET::::12::


I'm beginning to feel very young, remembering when I played cops and robbers and we children would get into arguments on whether one of us was 'dead' or not.
You can shout THE GAME IS DEAD all you like, it doesn't change reality. The game is alive as long as people are left who play and enjoy it. Pronouncing it dead is just an indication that it is an urgent wish of you that it should be dead. But thats your problem, not the game's.



On the contrary, I do not "wish it dead". However, as I stated, do you really see anyone buying this franchise after all the trouble it's had and the fact that I'm sure it's lost more money than it's made? Why would anyone want to take a financial gamble on a game that has gone through at least 3 owners and has minimal improvements from the time it was first launched in "beta"? And if you really think EI is going to be the one to turn it around, then yes, you are deluded. I've seen their other game and I'm in no way impressed. They do not have the ability, knowledge, or desire to take the steps necessary to bring this game to it's original goals and standards. I'm sorry if you don't agree with me, and I do know how hard it is to let go of a game you love, but when that game is continually being run into the ground by the people who are supposed to be picking it up, I would think that there would have to be a breaking point. you just haven't reached yours. Someone said that the game now has a retention rate of 50% according to the "developers". Well, if only 2 people tried it, and 1 actually stayed, that would make a 50% retention rate, correct? So, to that person, never put all of your faith in numbers, because they are the most easily manipulated aspect of any statistic.

  snickel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/05
Posts: 41

ahhh ... crafting!!!!

10/31/06 6:17:11 AM#76

Originally posted by Zorvan


...

On the contrary, I do not "wish it dead". However, as I stated, do you really see anyone buying this franchise after all the trouble it's had and the fact that I'm sure it's lost more money than it's made? Why would anyone want to take a financial gamble on a game that has gone through at least 3 owners and has minimal improvements from the time it was first launched in "beta"? And if you really think EI is going to be the one to turn it around, then yes, you are deluded. I've seen their other game and I'm in no way impressed. They do not have the ability, knowledge, or desire to take the steps necessary to bring this game to it's original goals and standards. I'm sorry if you don't agree with me, and I do know how hard it is to let go of a game you love, but when that game is continually being run into the ground by the people who are supposed to be picking it up, I would think that there would have to be a breaking point. you just haven't reached yours. Someone said that the game now has a retention rate of 50% according to the "developers". Well, if only 2 people tried it, and 1 actually stayed, that would make a 50% retention rate, correct? So, to that person, never put all of your faith in numbers, because they are the most easily manipulated aspect of any statistic.


Zorvan, there is a big difference between saying 'I personally have no hope for this game' and 'this game is dead'. The first is your opinion, backed up by facts that you consider relevant, the latter is a statement that might influence people not to give it a try -- thus effectively reducing the game's chances to pull around.

This game is still alive. What hopes it has for the future depends on a lot of different variables, one of them is that people find out for themselves if they like what it offers or not.
  Lionexx

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/04
Posts: 690

Alphen arms dealer rijin? No one can pronounce that Kyle! I can''t speak African..
-Jeremy,PP

10/31/06 6:33:53 AM#77
That game is still around? lol

Playing: Everthing
Played: DAoC,AC2,EvE,SWG,WAR,MXO,CoX,EQ2,L2,LOTRO,SB,UO,WoW.
I have played every MMO that has ever come out.

  Shadrak

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 381

10/31/06 7:12:37 AM#78

Originally posted by snickel

Originally posted by Zorvan


...

On the contrary, I do not "wish it dead". However, as I stated, do you really see anyone buying this franchise after all the trouble it's had and the fact that I'm sure it's lost more money than it's made? Why would anyone want to take a financial gamble on a game that has gone through at least 3 owners and has minimal improvements from the time it was first launched in "beta"? And if you really think EI is going to be the one to turn it around, then yes, you are deluded. I've seen their other game and I'm in no way impressed. They do not have the ability, knowledge, or desire to take the steps necessary to bring this game to it's original goals and standards. I'm sorry if you don't agree with me, and I do know how hard it is to let go of a game you love, but when that game is continually being run into the ground by the people who are supposed to be picking it up, I would think that there would have to be a breaking point. you just haven't reached yours. Someone said that the game now has a retention rate of 50% according to the "developers". Well, if only 2 people tried it, and 1 actually stayed, that would make a 50% retention rate, correct? So, to that person, never put all of your faith in numbers, because they are the most easily manipulated aspect of any statistic.


Zorvan, there is a big difference between saying 'I personally have no hope for this game' and 'this game is dead'. The first is your opinion, backed up by facts that you consider relevant, the latter is a statement that might influence people not to give it a try -- thus effectively reducing the game's chances to pull around.

This game is still alive. What hopes it has for the future depends on a lot of different variables, one of them is that people find out for themselves if they like what it offers or not.

Horizons has been around for 3yrs. its pretty safe to say that those who were inclined to try it already have. The game and its devs/owners over the years have used up and consequently lost any major playerbase it could have had due to the games poor performance and even worse management. you keep looking through those rose colored glasses snickel! and when they finally pronounce this game dead Im sure you'll be welcome as a positive to the end loyal fanboi in any number of other MMO's
  snickel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/05
Posts: 41

ahhh ... crafting!!!!

10/31/06 7:42:39 AM#79

Originally posted by Shadrak



Horizons has been around for 3yrs. its pretty safe to say that those who were inclined to try it already have. The game and its devs/owners over the years have used up and consequently lost any major playerbase it could have had due to the games poor performance and even worse management. you keep looking through those rose colored glasses snickel! and when they finally pronounce this game dead Im sure you'll be welcome as a positive to the end loyal fanboi in any number of other MMO's

And I was wondering how long it would take you to insult me with the term 'fanboi'.
I have given my reasons for liking that game and they are still valid for me.

As for the 'those that were inclined to try it already have'- notion: You should maybe have taken the trouble to read this whole thread. You would have noticed some people who posted that they had originally intended to give this game a try but were dissuaded by the postings.
  Shadrak

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 381

10/31/06 9:16:51 AM#80

Originally posted by snickel

Originally posted by Shadrak



Horizons has been around for 3yrs. its pretty safe to say that those who were inclined to try it already have. The game and its devs/owners over the years have used up and consequently lost any major playerbase it could have had due to the games poor performance and even worse management. you keep looking through those rose colored glasses snickel! and when they finally pronounce this game dead Im sure you'll be welcome as a positive to the end loyal fanboi in any number of other MMO's

And I was wondering how long it would take you to insult me with the term 'fanboi'.
I have given my reasons for liking that game and they are still valid for me.

As for the 'those that were inclined to try it already have'- notion: You should maybe have taken the trouble to read this whole thread. You would have noticed some people who posted that they had originally intended to give this game a try but were dissuaded by the postings.

No they were dissuaded by the questionable practices of EI . If you took "fanboi" as an insult I apologize and would recommend that you grow a thicker skin as there are many worse things that could be said of those that enable companies like Tulga and EI to stay in business. Companies that allow unsecure credit card and customer info to be transmitted. Companies that double/triple charge. Companies that deny for days a way for people to cancel their accounts. Companies that hide truths on their forums that they dont want seen by deleting the posts and banning the poster. Companies that allow Free trials to be created. require credit card info and then deny those people the ability to actually creat a character. Those are the reason that people are dissuaded from trying Horizons.
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